137 réponses à ce sujet

[Veruin]

Qistina wrote...
Spear is not just for thrusting you know...spear for thrusting is a misconception.

In martial art such as silat and kung fu have veriety of spear movement, can slash, can act like staff, can swing 360 degree, can make helicopter move and so on...

All these animations and **** must tie with in Western developers being lazy and corrupt, right?  Because after all, that's not cheap nor easy.

I say thrusting simply because that would be the easiest way to implement them.

Seishoujyo wrote...

Spears would be great, but I want to see guns in Dragon Age Inquisition too, I m not talking about rifles or snipers, no some old guns from 1400 or 1500 in Europe.

Only, the lore doesn't support guns since NO ONE has them.

There's gunpowder and cannons, but only the Qunari have them. They don't have guns.

Modifié par Veruin, 28 janvier 2014 - 02:24 .

[Veruin]

Qistina wrote...

see the video...spear is not just for thrusting. Spear share the technique with staff, the basis is the same around the world, it is the most primitive weapon. In Asia the most basic is bamboo sharpened. Spear is just a stick that have a knife at the end

What does that have to do with anything I just said?  When I was talking about animations and implementation?

[CybAnt1]

It's time for Dragon Age to evolve.

... into a pile of anachronistic, genre-confused molten crap, I suppose. 

BTW, Cowboys & Aliens did an OK job at mixing the sci-fi and Western film genres. But the usual result is crap. 

There have been some games that try and mix technology and magic. Arcanum is the best I can remember. Shadowrun does an interesting job with the present, but some would say it's "modern supernatural". The usual result is something like Spelljammer or Thundarr the Barbarian. 

That is, crap.

WoW at least tries to make most of its goblin and gnome tech look sufficiently steampunk. 

[Veruin]

Qistina wrote...

So, the already existing mage staff movement can be made for spear, only need a little tweak.

All of this implying they are even using the animations from DA2.  (And wih a different engine, I highly doubt it)

Modifié par Veruin, 28 janvier 2014 - 02:54 .

[DonaldFwump]

Veruin wrote...

Qistina wrote...

So, the already existing mage staff movement can be made for spear, only need a little tweak.

All of this implying they are even using the animations from DA2.  (And wih a different engine, I highly doubt it)

It's cute that you keep trying.  Qistina is notoriously stubborn as a mule, and will keep trying to make their...I guess it's kind of a point.  I'd give up now and save your self the hassle honestly.  Also, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Foot Loose.

[Veruin]

DonaldFwump wrote...

It's cute that you keep trying.  Qistina is notoriously stubborn as a mule, and will keep trying to make their...I guess it's kind of a point.  I'd give up now and save your self the hassle honestly.  Also, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Foot Loose.

If I was trying, I'd use more paragraphs.  It's funny to see how far she goes to justify things.

[DonaldFwump]

Veruin wrote...

DonaldFwump wrote...

It's cute that you keep trying.  Qistina is notoriously stubborn as a mule, and will keep trying to make their...I guess it's kind of a point.  I'd give up now and save your self the hassle honestly.  Also, Kevin Bacon wasn't in Foot Loose.

If I was trying, I'd use more paragraphs.  It's funny to see how far she goes to justify things.

Good point, it is always good for a chuckle while I read these at work in my free time 

[The Baconer]

Madparrott wrote...

Well, to be fair the DA universe already has gunpowder and cannons, so some people wanting muskets isn't that unnatural. Unlike, say, the Elder Scrolls, where people constantly ask for guns even though gunpowder doesn't exist in the lore.

Funny thing is that you wouldn't even need gunpowder to make cannons or firearms in TES. Not that I'd want them implemented.

[Han Shot First]

Whenever this topic has come up in the past there have always been people who argued against polearms, either on the basis that they are only suited for formation warfare, or that they are peasant weapons not suited for the player character. I haven't really seen anyone go that way in this thread yet, but since both aspects were touched on I thought I'd address it before someone takes it a step further.

While polearms are no doubt excellent weapons in formation warfare, its a bit of a myth that they are useless in solo combat. The Samurai fought with polearms both in pitched battles and in duels, and the Norse sagas also recount tales of Vikings fighting and killing each other with spears in duels. There were also a few different types of gladiator who fought with polearms. One of the fan favorites of the Romans' was the Retiarius, a man who fought unarmored and with a long trident and a net. There was also the Hoplomachus, who was armed with a spear, buckler, and dagger.

Reenactors depicting a fight between a Hoplomachus and a Mirmillo. (short sword and shield)

Fencing - Spear vs Sword & Buckler

Poleaxe tactics - European Martial Arts

Polearms are no less viable in solo combat.


While it is understandable at least that a person who wrongly believes that polearms are unsuitable for solo combat would be against their inclusion, the argument against their inclusion on the basis that they were 'peasant weapons' is a difficult one to understand. So were axes, scythes, clubs, and maces...all weapons commonly found in RPGs, and weapons I've never heard anyone ask to be removed from a game. And in any event it is also a bit of a myth that they were exclusively peasant weapons. While their cheaper and easier production made them common weapons for the lower classes, they weren't exclusively weapons of the lower classes. The nobles and warrior classes amongst the Vikings also fought with polearms quite frequently. So did knights and so did the Samurai. The difference between a noble and a peasant was mainly that the noble likely could afford to also own a sword to fall back on if his polearm was lost or damaged.

The argument that they'd require an additional set of animations, and thus might not be worth the time and resources, could be a valid one though. It all depends on where development time and resources are being spent. The inclusion of polearms and additional animations may require some other aspect of the game ending up cut. Whether or not that trade off would be worthwhile off course depends on what would need to be cut.

[Seishoujyo]

CybAnt1 wrote...

It's time for Dragon Age to evolve.

... into a pile of anachronistic, genre-confused molten crap, I suppose. 

BTW, Cowboys & Aliens did an OK job at mixing the sci-fi and Western film genres. But the usual result is crap. 

There have been some games that try and mix technology and magic. Arcanum is the best I can remember. Shadowrun does an interesting job with the present, but some would say it's "modern supernatural". The usual result is something like Spelljammer or Thundarr the Barbarian. 

That is, crap.

WoW at least tries to make most of its goblin and gnome tech look sufficiently steampunk. 

(Or Fable 3)

I hope you know I was kidding ^^

But still the guns....Mmmmmm I would love to see a gunner class, guns would be good against light armors and magic would be good against heavy armors.

I think there is no problem for the lore, "Qunari introduced them in Thedas in 8:40", that's all, easy.

Modifié par Seishoujyo, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:07 .

[Veruin]

Seishoujyo wrote...

I think there is no problem for the lore, "Qunari introduced them in Thedas in 8:40", that's all, easy.

Yes, then it reeks of fan service just as much as a darkspawn companion.

Modifié par Veruin, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:10 .

[Gold Dragon]

Ukki wrote...

Seishoujyo wrote...

Well guess what ? There were guns in Europe during medieval times.

I´m not talking late mediaval. More like 800 +, but deffenetly not 1200 and onvards. So no, no guns.

Never heard of Hand Cannons? They were around in the 1200's.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon

[LinksOcarina]

Han Shot First wrote...

Whenever this topic has come up in the past there have always been people who argued against polearms, either on the basis that they are only suited for formation warfare, or that they are peasant weapons not suited for the player character. I haven't really seen anyone go that way in this thread yet, but since both aspects were touched on I thought I'd address it before someone takes it a step further.

While polearms are no doubt excellent weapons in formation warfare, its a bit of a myth that they are useless in solo combat. The Samurai fought with polearms both in pitched battles and in duels, and the Norse sagas also recount tales of Vikings fighting and killing each other with spears in duels. There were also a few different types of gladiator who fought with polearms. One of the fan favorites of the Romans' was the Retiarius, a man who fought unarmored and with a long trident and a net. There was also the Hoplomachus, who was armed with a spear, buckler, and dagger.

Reenactors depicting a fight between a Hoplomachus and a Mirmillo. (short sword and shield)

Fencing - Spear vs Sword & Buckler

Poleaxe tactics - European Martial Arts

Polearms are no less viable in solo combat.


While it is understandable at least that a person who wrongly believes that polearms are unsuitable for solo combat would be against their inclusion, the argument against their inclusion on the basis that they were 'peasant weapons' is a difficult one to understand. So were axes, scythes, clubs, and maces...all weapons commonly found in RPGs, and weapons I've never heard anyone ask to be removed from a game. And in any event it is also a bit of a myth that they were exclusively peasant weapons. While their cheaper and easier production made them common weapons for the lower classes, they weren't exclusively weapons of the lower classes. The nobles and warrior classes amongst the Vikings also fought with polearms quite frequently. So did knights and so did the Samurai. The difference between a noble and a peasant was mainly that the noble likely could afford to also own a sword to fall back on if his polearm was lost or damaged.

The argument that they'd require an additional set of animations, and thus might not be worth the time and resources, could be a valid one though. It all depends on where development time and resources are being spent. The inclusion of polearms and additional animations may require some other aspect of the game ending up cut. Whether or not that trade off would be worthwhile off course depends on what would need to be cut.

if people are really arguing for or against weapon types based on historical use and accuracy, then they shouldn't be playing dragon Age as their bastion of Quasi-historical simulation. 

You basically stumbled upon the reason why it likely wasn't implemented yet, set of animation needed to be built might not be worth the cost of building it. 

I think they will bring it back into the game in some form though, we have had a lot of dev time this cycle and for the most part, concept art has shown it being in the minds of the developers. We also have an animation they can borrow off of, the staff melee attack from Dragon Age II. At least, they have something to utilize if they can transfer it over. 

[CybAnt1]

I hope you know I was kidding ^^

Well, in the absence of a tone indicator, I can't know what's sarcasm. 

[Maiden Crowe]

MDCT506 wrote...


I wouldn't be too sure, Dwarf vs. Darkspawn is all tunnel fighting.  Low ceilings and tight corridors seem to be inconvenient for maneuvering spears.  At least if we're talking about the kind that give appreciable reach over a sword, mace, or axe.  If anyone, I'd think the darkspawn would be the most common polearm users in Thedas, especially during blights when they go topside and have to take down knights on horseback. 

As for the OP.

Spears in "Midieval" combat were a weapon for massed formations of infantry.  They very well might exist in Thedas but since the Warden / Hawke / Inquisitor isn't a soldier in the front line of an infantry column, they probably won't find much use for them or at least wouldn't see a need to use one in personal combat. 

The spear is probably in the same place as the war hammer in Thedas.  Despite their effectiveness, they don't have the swagger factor of other weapons.  They belong in the hands of peasants and the elite warriors of Thedas would simply rather be caught dead carrying other hittin' sticks whether it makes any sense or not. 

Personally I don't get it, why do you feel the need to defend Bioware's laziness to the point that you are trying to justify their actions by spouting nonsense? I mean I would think that any being of clear and rational thought would come to the conclusion that the spear is a perfect weapon for narrow tunnels what with it's primary use being a thrusting weapon? There are plenty of scenarios where an adventuring party could get good use out of a spear so it is hardly a rational argument to justify their exclusion.

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Its a cost benift thing. Does adding spears polearms, add anything to the world? Not really...

Of course it would, I mean if that is the way you feel you might as well say swords dont add anything to the world either, technically the DA team could omit swords as well and still have a functional game however it would be even harder to take it serious as a medieval fantasy roleplaying game, when creating a world every little detail helps give authenticity and believability, start skimping on details and you compromise the integrity of the world you have just created.

[CybAnt1]

I guess I might also add the Dragon Age weapon-sphere is rather lacking in thrown weapons.

Spears are rather good for throwing at people. As are javelins, throwing knives, thrown hammers (the sexy for these are back with Thor in the movies), and throwing axes/hatchets.

I confess I have no idea how hard it is to do a good animation for a thrown weapon. Is it harder to do than firing a bow and shooting an arrow through the air? I just admit puzzlement why Dragon Age doesn't have any.

I don't want guns, but there are definitely times where I'd sure like to throw something at somebody (and I'm not talking forumgoers). Spears would do.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:33 .

[TKavatar]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I guess I might also add the Dragon Age weapon-sphere is rather lacking in thrown weapons.

Spears are rather good for throwing at people. As are javelins, throwing knives, thrown hammers (the sexy for these are back with Thor in the movies), and throwing axes/hatchets.

I confess I have no idea how hard it is to do a good animation for a thrown weapon. Is it harder to do than firing a bow and shooting an arrow through the air? I just admit puzzlement why Dragon Age doesn't have any.

I don't want guns, but there are definitely times where I'd sure like to throw something at somebody (and I'm not talking forumgoers). Spears would do.

They did have animations set up for the Qunari - but they probably didn't have time to set up and balance another class ability IMO.

[Anvos]

I think people are over estimating the effectiveness of spears against darkspawn.

1. After Tevintar the darkspawn are the most mage prolific group since they aren't shackled by the Andrastian lies about magic and I think somewhere its been said emassarries can't become abominations.

2. In the first couple blights there was likely the bigger threat of corrupted magisters and magister lords. Just think how much more powerful Corphyeous would have been had he not been locked in a box for centuries and confused at the time.

3. The usefulness against ogres is doubtful, since either you won't pierce deep enough to do real damage, will get your spear lodged in them if you go deep enough (leaving you disarmed), or its momentum would carry it ownward into you or spear wall even if you kill it.  Also there is the problem of armored ogres.

4. In the tunnels people seem to forget again about the emassaries and the fact that blighted spiders could just go over your spear wall by crawling on the roof of the tunnel or just web you spears together. 

5. if you've played DA Heroes you'd notice the second generation genlocks are capable of carrying massive crude metal tower shields into battle that covers pretty much all of their own front.

Modifié par Anvos, 29 janvier 2014 - 02:39 .

[MDCT506]

@Maiden Crowe

You might consder lightening up a bit.  We can disagree and be civil, no?

My point is that when one is in a tight corridor, that a polearm becomes unwieldy, much like getting a full length sofa down a spiral staircase.  It can be done, but one would knida wish it was a folding chair by the time one was finished. 

My other point was that there may be a perception of the part of the denizens of Thedas about the usefulness or implied status of such weapons, wether it makes sense or not to an outside observer. 


@CybAnt1
We're only just getting bowstrings fer crying out loud, one thing at a time!

[SgtSteel91]

So who would use the spear if it was introduced?

Would it be an exclusive weapon for warriors, mages, maybe both?

[-Skorpious-]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

So who would use the spear if it was introduced?

Would it be an exclusive weapon for warriors, mages, maybe both?

I thought weapons weren't restricted anymore in Inquisition? Or was that just armor?

Anyways, I would totally use the spear as a weapon; works great in Dark Souls and would probably work great in Dragon Age too if they were included. 

[Maiden Crowe]

MDCT506 wrote...

@Maiden Crowe

You might consder lightening up a bit.  We can disagree and be civil, no?

My point is that when one is in a tight corridor, that a polearm becomes unwieldy, much like getting a full length sofa down a spiral staircase.  It can be done, but one would knida wish it was a folding chair by the time one was finished. 

My other point was that there may be a perception of the part of the denizens of Thedas about the usefulness or implied status of such weapons, wether it makes sense or not to an outside observer. 


@CybAnt1
We're only just getting bowstrings fer crying out loud, one thing at a time!

That was me being civil you ignorant jackass (if any moderators are watching that was a joke.......... you overzealous bastards), I just call things the way I see them.

I highly doubt maneuvering spears in narrow corridors is quite the problem you make it out to be and even so you seem to be forgetting the more important point of fighting in a narrow corridor, would you rather be swinging a greatsword or trusting a spear in narrow spaces? Also I really have no idea why the people of Thedas would be unable to perceive the usefulness of a spear, care to enlighten me?

[MadParrot]

Anvos wrote...

*snip*

I'm arguing primarily about dwarves using spears so no comments on humans, but:

1. Dwarves have magic resistance. This, of course, doesn't make the issue go away, but depending on how rare emissaries are, it could lessen it enough to make spear wall a more than viable tactic. And since all we have on emissary rarity is: "The few toughest and most intelligent of the darkspawn become alphas, and of these alphas a few become emissaries.", this point can't really be discussed without going off on a tangent. But it might be interesting to do elsewhere.

2. No argument from me, Orzammar is stuck a few centuries behind the times after all.

3. Not going deep enough and getting your weapon stuck are issues for all swords and axes too. And I'd imagine armored ogres would be problematic for any weapon that is not a ballista or a qunari cannon.

4. Okay, I give you the spiders (mwahahahaaa!).  Edit: I know, that joke was terrible.

5. Can be worked around. Although that might not work on a heavier and differently shaped tower shield. Can anyone more knowledgeable enlighten me on this?

Modifié par Madparrott, 30 janvier 2014 - 03:42 .

[Peer of the Empire]

Han Shot First wrote...

Whenever this topic has come up in the past there have always been people who argued against polearms, either on the basis that they are only suited for formation warfare, or that they are peasant weapons not suited for the player character. I haven't really seen anyone go that way in this thread yet, but since both aspects were touched on I thought I'd address it before someone takes it a step further.

While polearms are no doubt excellent weapons in formation warfare, its a bit of a myth that they are useless in solo combat. The Samurai fought with polearms both in pitched battles and in duels, and the Norse sagas also recount tales of Vikings fighting and killing each other with spears in duels. There were also a few different types of gladiator who fought with polearms. One of the fan favorites of the Romans' was the Retiarius, a man who fought unarmored and with a long trident and a net. There was also the Hoplomachus, who was armed with a spear, buckler, and dagger.

Reenactors depicting a fight between a Hoplomachus and a Mirmillo. (short sword and shield)

Fencing - Spear vs Sword & Buckler

Poleaxe tactics - European Martial Arts

Polearms are no less viable in solo combat.


While it is understandable at least that a person who wrongly believes that polearms are unsuitable for solo combat would be against their inclusion, the argument against their inclusion on the basis that they were 'peasant weapons' is a difficult one to understand. So were axes, scythes, clubs, and maces...all weapons commonly found in RPGs, and weapons I've never heard anyone ask to be removed from a game. And in any event it is also a bit of a myth that they were exclusively peasant weapons. While their cheaper and easier production made them common weapons for the lower classes, they weren't exclusively weapons of the lower classes. The nobles and warrior classes amongst the Vikings also fought with polearms quite frequently. So did knights and so did the Samurai. The difference between a noble and a peasant was mainly that the noble likely could afford to also own a sword to fall back on if his polearm was lost or damaged.

The argument that they'd require an additional set of animations, and thus might not be worth the time and resources, could be a valid one though. It all depends on where development time and resources are being spent. The inclusion of polearms and additional animations may require some other aspect of the game ending up cut. Whether or not that trade off would be worthwhile off course depends on what would need to be cut.

Polearms are different from spears, and are weapons of great warriors

They are used particularly by elite infantry to confront elite cavalry and chop them down

Of course.. random peasants also could make ad hoc polearms and so there may be stigma from that

[Han Shot First]

Spears are polearms.