180 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Maiden Crowe wrote...

Tis a shame you feel that way though not altogether unpredictable, however Baldur's Gate 1 is but the first installment of the series and would you judge a game like the Witcher 2 based on the quality of the first? Of course many did and thus missed out on what would have to be the best RPG released in quite a while which is quite a shame.

I should have specified. I have played and beaten Baldur's Gate II. But I just figured most fans would already iterate what made BG2 an enjoyable game, so I focused on what I felt was an extremely mediocre game, BG1.

I personally do not think BG1 has aged well at all.

[Ieldra]

Realmzmaster wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

I do agree familiarity with the D & D ruleset helps in these games.

Actually the manual covered a great deal of what the gamer needed to know especially the differences between the rules and the gameplay. The manuals for Pool of Radiance: Myth Drannor and Temple of Elemental Evil were also good at explaining D & D 3.0 and 3.5 respectively. 

I never found any of the games tough to pick up, but then I had agreat deal of fun with the GoldBox games, Wizardry, Ultima and Might & Magic all of which had fun manuals to read. The manuals actually bothered to expalin the mechanics of the game unlike many of the manuals now which I find totally lacking in describing the mechanics..

BG1 and 2 came with good manuals and reference cards

I didn't have problems either. It wasn't too complicated for me since I'm very used to complicated game rules but it was way more complicated than it needed to be. Since I have some understanding of the systematics of game rules, I noticed quickly that the rules in BG1/2 are patchwork. Once you move past the basic mechanics, there is no real system any more, particularly in magic. Every spell had its own arbitrary rules, and often there were several spells doing basically the same thing in different levels with different rules. The only part I liked were the protection/protection breaker mechanics, because that added tactical depth to combat between mages. But then, that was not part of regular 2E AD&D.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Yet the thing about Planescape is that the combat system is lacking. Awkward back a decade ago, it feels absolutely broken by today's standards. That's one of the biggest blockades for me, personally, in going back and doing replays.

Honestly, any criticism which can be thrown on Planescape regarding awkward mechanics can easily be made towards Baldur's Gate or the DnD 2.0 system as a whole.

What saves Planescape, in comparison to BG, is how much emphasis there is on dialogue, giving the player the ability to avoid most combat situations. It's also why I encourage most people who do play Planescape to start off with a Mage, or at least someone with a high wisdom/intelligence, allowing them to experience the full content of the narrative.

While a brute fighter killing everything is a valid style, I think it's similar to doing a brute force playthrough in Hitman. Sure, the game will allow for it, but you're denying yourself a very uncommon style of gameplay.

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 janvier 2014 - 09:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I remember playing and loving both BG games, but I simply cannot play them anymore because they are just too boring.
I think the modern age games use of cinematics and fully voiced characters and all those shenanigans has spoiled me, and now I cannot play through the older classics without almost falling asleep through sheer boredom.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think the modern age games use of cinematics and fully voiced characters and all those shenanigans has spoiled me

Whereas I derive very little value from the cinematics and voiced characters, so when I look at the new games I mostly see missed opportunities.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'll chalk that up to differing preferences. As I have grown fond of the film media, the cinematic approach in games has grown on me too.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think the value of non-interactive films bears no resemblance to the value of roleplaying games. They're two very different things, and I want different things from them.

I expect films to tell me a story. I expect films to use cinematography to draw my attention to things the narrative needs me to notice.

But I do not want that from roleplaying games. If I'm to stay in character, the game shouldn't keep reminding me that I'm not in control of what my character notices.

[CybAnt1]

As such, a lot of people like the game nowadays not because the actually like it

Actually, I actually liked it. This may get us into the more interesting topic of not only "what is a RPG?" but "what is a game?"  Some people have fun thinking, some don't. It's all I'll say on the topic. :innocent: (*) 

BTW, "best video game story eva?" Nah. No way. But ... "best fantasy CRPG story of its gaming era". Fo sho. 

(*) It's closely related to why I would tell you why Watchmen was one hell of a better movie than The Avengers. Of course, that's because it's an adaptation of a graphic novel - a comic book that's actually good for you. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I also expect a game to tell me a story. However, I concur that in an old school RPG player interaction with this stroy is far more open. However, as I was trying to point out, it is exactly this undefined story that doesn't appeal to me anymore. I vastly prefer the Mass Effect approach to the BG approach, simply becsuse to me it makes for a better and more engaging story.

[Endurium]

I played the games when they were new, so...

Baldur's Gate was enjoyable to me because of the premise of its story. The antagonist was enjoyable as well, with a fun twist.

Tales of the Sword Coast introduced the hint of romance, if that conversation thread was pursued, with a werewolf NPC. This led to...

Baldur's Gate 2 is my favorite of the two games, primarily because of the antagonist and companions, but also because I could form my preferred party earlier (Imoen aside), unlike BG1 where I had to wait until I got to the main city for some characters. The story is also enjoyable.

ToB continued romances if you pursued them, but the story wasn't as impressive (the movie "The One" gives an idea of what the antagonist was all about)

Finally, what keeps these games (especially BG2) interesting even today is the ability to modify them. A number of tools were developed over the years, and not a few mods; there are many companion mods available.

While DAO feels like BG2 in a spiritual sense, it lacks player agency with regard to party make-up (try going after Branka without Oghren), and the implementation of cutscene-based conversations throws strategic positioning out the window (entire party is teleported to the NPC being spoken to).

I still have all the original Infinity engine games installed and running. Good times. Also have the EE versions of the BG series thanks to Steam.

[Noctis Augustus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

Maiden Crowe wrote...

Totally relevant topic for these forums as the Dragon Age team have been trying to figure this one out for years but to no avail.

I love the BG series. Probably in my top 5 favorites list, but IMO, much of the greatness of the series is nostalgia driven.

I think it's a classic game; it was both remarkable for its time and has had a long lasting impact on cRPGs. It's not 'great' compared to contemporary games made for contemporary audiences, but it was great for its time.

Absolutely. That's why there are people investing their money on promises of spiritual successors to those "not "great" compared to contemporary games made for contemporary audiences" type of games. That's why a digital distribution website was created just for those type of games, and is currently very popular. That's why someone like me who played those games a decade after their release, considers them above modern games in terms of intrinsic quality.

You are a minority. Those who are frequent visitors of GOG are a minority. Big enough that the site can make profit from them, given that the old games cost almost nothing and need almost no resources to store and run compared to modern games, but still a minority. Also, we older gamers tend to be influenced by nostalgia. If you actively try to disregard the nostalgia factor, things become much murkier.

I have no doubt that a story like that of the BG series would be very well received today. However, gameplay is overcomplicated without necessity (probably due to the D&D license) and the presentation is outdated. Roleplaying in dialogue is actually more limited than you might recall, and not overall better than the better modern examples (say, DAO).

Don't misunderstand me: I do want those spiritual successors, to the point that I have significantly invested in Pillars of Eternity. However, they will not be great without evolving some elements beyond those of the old games significantly, and not just in graphics. 

Minority? Most people that play modern RPGs *never* played an RPG from the golden age. Popularity doesn't prove quality, neither does nostalgia disprove it. I'm still not even sure if nostalgia can be applied to the media, it's the longing for an age/period of time after all. It's unrelated to the game itself.

"Overcomplicated without necessity"? What part of it was complicated? Aren't modern games the ones that are oversimplified? If people think an D&D videogame is complex then this world is screwed after all. Vain and simple minded fools rule this world.
Comparing it to DAO is meaningless, although a bit oversimplified already, it still followed the example of it's predecessors. Besides, it was created years after BG2 when Bioware had much more resources (I assume) and more experience.

Of course, technology has evolved greatly.

[bussinrounds]

  Time for a repost, I guess.

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction went nuts for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagements" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some cool dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often also. And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to these people. I mean, Neverwinter Nights didn't have time to design anything better than one of the crappiest campaigns ever but they sure had time to write in plenty of elvish waifu s**t, and I even recall a lot of praise being given for this. Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim/cinematic style and started headlong down the road to what they have become.  The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got shafted.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I do. Things would be so much better if BioWare had borrowed from KotOR's romance structure (minus Juhani, so it's just Carth and Bastila) and restricted romance options to ones deeply embedded in the main plot, so their character arc reaches climax (lol) when the main story does.

I loathe the whole Bond Girls model they've adopted in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games.

Carth's pissy attitude aside, it is the best game BioWare has done on the romance front.

A Dark Sided female telling Carth to fvck off after he tries to bring you "back to the light" was one of the game's best/funniest moments tbh.

Romance was ingrained in BG 2, but didn't become a major factor until Mass Effect (KotOR, NWN and Jade Empire all had romance, but they weren't at the forefront of the games). KotOR on the other hand, was where BioWare began to use cinematics heavily and jumped on the cinematic bandwagon.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 28 janvier 2014 - 12:20 .

[Enigmatick]

CrustyBot wrote...

I do. Things would be so much better if BioWare had borrowed from KotOR's romance structure (minus Juhani, so it's just Carth and Bastila) and restricted romance options to ones deeply embedded in the main plot, so their character arc reaches climax (lol) when the main story does.

I loathe the whole Bond Girls model they've adopted in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games.

Carth's pissy attitude aside, it is the best game BioWare has done on the romance front.

A Dark Sided female telling Carth to fvck off after he tries to bring you "back to the light" was one of the game's best/funniest moments tbh.

Off Topic, but I really hate that Austin Powers drove espionage comedy into the ground. I love archer but that's really all that's left

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Can't really comment since I'm not really into espionage comedy and I loved the AP movies lol.

Only espionage comedy I really enjoyed outside of that (I don't watch Archer) was Get Smart (the movie, but mostly the show since my dad and I used to watch it together when I was a kid).

[Dabrikishaw]

Was this moved to off-topic? I didn't think that was possible.

[Il Divo]

J. Reezy wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim/cinematic style and started headlong down the road to what they have become.  The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got shafted.

Really? I don't recall anybody praising KOTOR for its romance subplots.

Didn't KotOR have even fewer romance options per each gender than BG2? Which game was the dating sim, I wonder?

[CybAnt1]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

Was this moved to off-topic? I didn't think that was possible.

There are these mysterious powers that rule over the world of "BSN". They are a kind of deity known as "moderators". They have amazing abilities. Some threads will simply be wiped out of existence. Some they will lock till they wind up on a limbo known as "Page 193". Others they will move. 

I think it really depends on how many offerings we leave for them. And how angry they feel with us that day. 

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...


Didn't KotOR have even fewer romance options per each gender than BG2? Which game was the dating sim, I wonder?

Does it even matter since BIoWare has never made anything close to a dating sim.

Then again I have never been able to take that poster seriously. Almost like they are practicing hyperbole to be on FoxNews.

Enigmatick wrote...

Off Topic, but I really hate that Austin Powers drove espionage comedy into the ground. I love archer but that's really all that's left

Was there ever really a abundance of them to begin with?

Modifié par addiction21, 28 janvier 2014 - 01:42 .

[Rawgrim]

Jaulen wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

*snip*

You are a minority. Those who are frequent visitors of GOG are a minority. Big enough that the site can make profit from them, given that the old games cost almost nothing and need almost no resources to store and run compared to modern games, but still a minority. Also, we older gamers tend to be influenced by nostalgia. If you actively try to disregard the nostalgia factor, things become much murkier.

I have no doubt that a story like that of the BG series would be very well received today. However, gameplay is overcomplicated without necessity (probably due to the D&D license) and the presentation is outdated. Roleplaying in dialogue is actually more limited than you might recall, and not overall better than the better modern examples (say, DAO).

Don't misunderstand me: I do want those spiritual successors, to the point that I have significantly invested in Pillars of Eternity. However, they will not be great without evolving some elements beyond those of the old games significantly, and not just in graphics. 

My first 'real' RPG (other than things like Baulders Gate and Champions of Norath on the PS2) was DAO.
Then Witcher. (which I never finished, the camera work made me motion sick)
Then DA2
Then I played the ME series (didn't start playing ME or ME2 until Jan of 2011)
After that I picked up Jade Empire
Then SW:ToR
Then KOTOR and KOTOR2 (which was my fav of the 2).

Somewhere in there I picked up Baulder's Gate Enhanced Edition on Steam to play.
Ugh.
Will someday slog through it. But I hate the feeling of having to have a manual next to me to recall all the rules (at least on tabletop I only had my own character to keep track of). Too cumbersome (for me) with the implementation of the D&D rules in video game format, too much micromanaging.

I'd rather play Dreamfall than BG.

Baulder?

[Rawgrim]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

The thing that made Baldur's Gate great was the lack of any competition.

Fallout 1-2, Might and Magic 7-8 + + +

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Rawgrim wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

The thing that made Baldur's Gate great was the lack of any competition.

Fallout 1-2, Might and Magic 7-8 + + +

What about Might and Magic 7-8? They're my most favorite action-adventure RPGs in the series. M&M8 > M&M7


Baldur's Gate have very good story and some good companions unlike DA2 I suppose.

[Rawgrim]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

The thing that made Baldur's Gate great was the lack of any competition.

Fallout 1-2, Might and Magic 7-8 + + +

What about Might and Magic 7-8? They're my most favorite action-adventure RPGs in the series. M&M8 > M&M7


Baldur's Gate have very good story and some good companions unlike DA2 I suppose.

Was just pointing out that the BG series did have some competition, since those rpgs cam out around the same time.