28 réponses à ce sujet

[MagicalMaster]

MrZork wrote...

Not quite sure I follow you on the first point. Are you saying that, with TWF and Ambidexterity, it is worth getting ITWF on a build like this?

Correct -- or rather, that if you aren't getting ITWF then you should just generally single-wield.

MrZork wrote...

I haven't done the math and I am not disputing anything, I am just curious about the reasoning. My worry was that this particular toon may have trouble finding opponents it can hit 30% of the time (on a 15 or better) while holding two weapons. But, with TWF and Amb., he at least will get two at 30% (the mainhand attack and then offhand attack), a free attack from haste at 40% and the second mainhand attack at 5%, so 1.05 hits per round. If I am thinking about this correctly, the extra offhand attack from ITWF adds another at -5 AB, bringing this to 1.10 hits per round. Am I missing something in the math (or maybe it's reasonable to think he is hitting more often?) or are you saying that that gain is worth the feat?

Your math is perfectly correct but you also managed to pick the most extreme case.  Of course, without dual-wield you'd get 0.4/0.15/0.4 = 0.95 hits per round so you're spending two feats to gain 10% damage.  ITWF is gaining another 5% for one more feat.

Imagine an enemy that you can only hit on 20s, for example -- you gain 25% more damage from ITWF.

Or let's say you hit 15% of the time dual-wielding -- that's 15/5/15/25= 0.6 HPR.  Single wielding would be 25/5/25 = 0.55 so a 9% improvement and ITWF would be 8% on top of that for a single feat.

And let's take it the other way -- say you hit 40% of the time.  50/25/50 = 1.25 single wielding, 40/15/40/50 = 1.45 dual-wielding so a 16% improvement.  ITWF takes that to 1.6.

In other words, ITWF usually gives as much benefit as the other two feats combined, roughly, in most cases (especially since you need BOTH feats to be better than single wield in the first place).

MrZork wrote...

As it is, the ranger feat at level twenty is already used for Greater Spell Focus, so putting ranger 1 into epics would pretty much be swapping a casting feat for a casting feat.

Ah, I forgot you could do that pre-epic, thought it was an epic only thing.  Then yeah, doesn't really matter.

[PracticalKat]

MrZ, a few comments on your multiclass build earlier.  I popped it into CBC, and only get one feat at level 21 where you have two.  I then put in Armor Skin in place of one Great Int, swopped Silent Spell for Still , and came up with the build that I've listed at the bottom. 
Comparing this to the Sinister Magus build on the Epic Site, with similar starting stats, I'm surprised to see how much lower the naked AC is on my character: 19 vs 24.  Halflings only get an extra 1AC to start with, so is this due to the Assassin levels?  
I understand why there should be an AB difference (23 vs 29), as the SM build has used Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Prowess to pump it up.  Mmmm, I should really compare Dual Wield + Monk Flurry of Blows with Kamas to TWF/Ambi/ITWF for effectiveness, and see if I could use the freed feat slots to increase AB and add other useful feats.  That would also mean moving Ranger and Monk much earlier.

Wizard(38), Ranger(1), Monk(1), Elf
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 18 (36)
CHA: 8

Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Wizard(1): Toughness, {Scribe Scroll}
02: Wizard(2)
03: Wizard(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Wizard(4): INT+1, (INT=19)
05: Wizard(5): Extend Spell
06: Wizard(6): Silent Spell
07: Wizard(7)
08: Wizard(8): INT+1, (INT=20)
09: Wizard(9): Two-Weapon Fighting
10: Wizard(10): Empower Spell
11: Wizard(11)
12: Wizard(12): INT+1, Ambidexterity, (INT=21)
13: Wizard(13)14: Wizard(14)
15: Wizard(15): Spell Focus: Necromancy, Maximize Spell
16: Wizard(16): INT+1, (INT=22)
17: Wizard(17)
18: Wizard(18): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
19: Wizard(19)
20: Ranger(1): INT+1, Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy, {Dual Wield}, (INT=23)
21: Wizard(20): Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
22: Wizard(21)
23: Wizard(22)
24: Wizard(23): INT+1, Great Intelligence I, Epic Spell: Epic Mage Armor, (INT=25)
25: Wizard(24)
26: Wizard(25)
27: Monk(1): Epic Skill Focus: Concentration, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
28: Wizard(26): INT+1, Great Intelligence II, (INT=27)
29: Wizard(27)
30: Wizard(28): Great Intelligence III, (INT=28)
31: Wizard(29): Epic Spell: Epic Warding
32: Wizard(30): INT+1, (INT=29)
33: Wizard(31): Armor Skin
34: Wizard(32): Great Intelligence IV, (INT=30)
35: Wizard(33)
36: Wizard(34): INT+1, Great Intelligence V, (INT=32)
37: Wizard(35): Great Intelligence VI, (INT=33)
38: Wizard(36)
39: Wizard(37): Great Intelligence VII, (INT=34)
40: Wizard(38): INT+1, Great Intelligence VIII, (INT=36)

Hitpoints: 250
Skillpoints: 371
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 19/20/19
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +11, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 20
AB (max, naked): 23 (melee), 23 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 19/26
Spell Casting: Wizard(9)Alignment Changes: 0

Modifié par brendonwp, 04 février 2014 - 09:19 .

[MrZork]

brendonwp wrote...

MrZ, a few comments on your multiclass build earlier. I popped it into CBC, and only get one feat at level 21 where you have two. I then put in Armor Skin in place of one Great Int, and came up with the build that I've listed at the bottom.
Comparing this to the Sinister Magus build on the Epic Site, with similar starting stats, I'm surprised to see how much lower the naked AC is on my character: 19 vs 24. Halflings only get an extra 1AC to start with, so is this due to the Assassin levels?
I understand the sizable AB difference (23 vs 29), as the SM build has used Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus and Epic Prowess to pump it up.

Not sure what's going on with your CBC sheet. You are taking wizard level 20 at character level 21. That gives you the wizard bonus feat and the general epic feat. Here is the CBC sheet (7zipped for size) that I whipped up. Maybe that will help.

The AC difference is partly because that build takes a later tumble dump. At level 37, one can put 40 ranks into tumble. At level 27, the limit is 30, so that's a +2 AC improvement for the later skill dump at a cost of not being able to use those skills until 10 levels later in the build. It's a playing preference, as I have noted elsewhere, whether your prefer to be a bit more powerful at the end, or to have better playability through a longer portion of the build. I generally go for the latter, unless I am playing in a module where most of the toon's career will be at level 40.

The rest of the AC difference is not clear to me. That assassin build should wind up with an AC 3 better than the build I posted, if you altered it to take Armor Skin. I don't see the skill summary in the build you posted - is it possible that you forgot to put 30 points into tumble at level 27 or that you forgot the Armor Skin? Here's where the AC comes from: 10 (base) +3 (DEX) +6 (tumble) +2 (Armor Skin) = 21 AC. That's what you should be showing. The assassin build has an extra 10 ranks in tumble (+2) and gets a bonus for a small race (+1) = 24 AC.

[PracticalKat]

Will look at the CBC sheet. Did not look at adjusting the skills (incl Tumble) yet, so that will account for most of the difference. Duh!

I prefer earlier access to Tumble over waiting for more ranks in total.