92 réponses à ce sujet

[Rodus Maxumus]

In the Mass Effect series (and Dagon Age series also) the dialog options can get a bit confusing when it comes to romance, you can chose some innocuous dialog option and the next thing you know is your character is professing their love for the person they are talking to or even worse several missions latter they will not talk to you because they claim you were stringing them along and here you were trying to maintain or develop a friendship.
And in ME3 some of the conversations with Cortez the undertones felt wrong. Admittedly though I have had a few friendly acquaintances in the gay and bi community I have had only one I would call a real friendship and we would never have used those undertones in our conversations.
I believe it’s great that Bio Ware accommodates the gay and bi community, but I would like to see sexuality in character creation as that is a major part of who you are and the way some people will treat you (both good and bad).
The other is context of dialog options as I said earlier sometimes a dialog option will take you in a direction you did not want go. At the very least have the context of the dialog option in brackets eg. (Make a pass), (Develop friendship), (Pick a fight).

[DaringMoosejaw]

I actually don't know what you're talking about with Cortez. It worked pretty great with him and you never had to deal with any of it aside from that one line at the bar, where you can choose the not-interested option and smoothly move on without any awkwardness whatsoever. It was done very well.

I doubt they'd do this. One, you'd have all of the insecure types going nuts about how they have to pick the straight option at chargen and how it's pandering and such. Also, it's micromanaging things a little much. What next? A checkbox for if you want your character to have a peanut allergy? Does picking the gay box mean you run with limp wrists and talk like the guy from the B52s? There are plenty of gay people who don't fit that stereotype.

[SwobyJ]

All I need is a small indicator that a dialogue option is a romantic one.

Though that would be sad in the way that BW would no longer be able to sneak up romances (or potential future romance types, I mean) on us through clever use of dialogue. Would make the 'RP' part of 'RPG' more mechanical than I would hope its potential is.

[Rodus Maxumus]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Also, it's micromanaging things a little much. What next? A checkbox for if you want your character to have a peanut allergy? Does picking the gay box mean you run with limp wrists and talk like the guy from the B52s? There are plenty of gay people who don't fit that stereotype.

Don’t be stupid, I’m talking about blocking off and/or changing some dialog options. And there is nothing wrong with a few awkward moments “Shepard, err sorry, I’m into women”. As for Cortez I can’t quite put my finger on it but at times I found his undertones (not what he said but how he said it) jarring and out of place.

[DeinonSlayer]

Rodus Maxumus wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Also, it's micromanaging things a little much. What next? A checkbox for if you want your character to have a peanut allergy? Does picking the gay box mean you run with limp wrists and talk like the guy from the B52s? There are plenty of gay people who don't fit that stereotype.

Don’t be stupid, I’m talking about blocking off and/or changing some dialog options. And there is nothing wrong with a few awkward moments “Shepard, err sorry, I’m into women”. As for Cortez I can’t quite put my finger on it but at times I found his undertones (not what he said but how he said it) jarring and out of place.

I get what you're saying. The conversation where he's found listening to the recording from his husband in the cargo hold gives you two responses; one is too personal ("I'm here for you"), the other too cold ("We all die alone"). A third (non-romantic) option here would have been nice.

I've learned to avoid the final meeting with him in Purgatory altogether. Your only options there as MaleShep are to either hit on him or ogle the Asari strippers. If you're roleplaying a Shepard who is faithful to someone else, both of these options are inappropriate.

I'm seeing a lot of hair-trigger accusations of homophobia being directed at people who make requests like the OP these days. All we're looking for is options which don't force us to either A) make a pass at [insert romantic interest here] or act like a dick.

[AlexMBrennan]

I believe it’s great that Bio Ware accommodates the gay and bi community, but I would like to see sexuality in character creation as that is a major part of who you are and the way some people will treat you (both good and bad).

Your post is considered hate speech by Bioware so it's fair to assume that this isn't gonna happen.

So man up and try reading the dialogue option before blindly picking top right every time because "Shepard's a paragon!11eleven"

[Everyone Is Someone]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

If you're roleplaying a Shepard who is faithful to someone else, both of these options are inappropriate.

Hey, you're being faithful, not dead!

Ultimately I think it's more of a problem of subjectivity. I mean, Cortez's interactions with an incompatible Shepard didn't seem anything but platonic to me, but that doesn't mean the OP is wrong and I'm right, nor does it mean I'm wrong and the OP is right. Similarly, I might think it's fine for a Shepard in a relationship to compliment dancers; that doesn't mean everyone can or should agree with my standards.

One solution would be to go back to the Dragon Age: Origins/KOTOR style of dialogue, which generally had more than three (and certainly more than two) options a majority of the time.

Another solution could be to structure NPC interaction in groups by default, and have player-initiated one-on-one time. What if most of the time on the Normandy, you head to the shutle bay and join in Vega/Cortez conversations; the lounge could be Garrus/Ashley/Kaidan; on the bridge you interact with Samantha/EDI/Joker. Then Shepard gets the option to say, "Hey, Romanceable Squadmate, let's go out on the Citadel!" Then at this second stage interaction, you get the option to cement a romance (or terminate it, if it turns out to be a dull time).

[Jorji Costava]

I know David Gaider's not on the ME team, but for what it's worth, here's his take on the "toggle solution."

[AlanC9]

DA2 was a bit clearer in its presentation than ME was. Even an idiot can see the big heart symbol on the screen

[Grizzly46]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Rodus Maxumus wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Also, it's micromanaging things a little much. What next? A checkbox for if you want your character to have a peanut allergy? Does picking the gay box mean you run with limp wrists and talk like the guy from the B52s? There are plenty of gay people who don't fit that stereotype.

Don’t be stupid, I’m talking about blocking off and/or changing some dialog options. And there is nothing wrong with a few awkward moments “Shepard, err sorry, I’m into women”. As for Cortez I can’t quite put my finger on it but at times I found his undertones (not what he said but how he said it) jarring and out of place.

I get what you're saying. The conversation where he's found listening to the recording from his husband in the cargo hold gives you two responses; one is too personal ("I'm here for you"), the other too cold ("We all die alone"). A third (non-romantic) option here would have been nice.

I've learned to avoid the final meeting with him in Purgatory altogether. Your only options there as MaleShep are to either hit on him or ogle the Asari strippers. If you're roleplaying a Shepard who is faithful to someone else, both of these options are inappropriate.

I'm seeing a lot of hair-trigger accusations of homophobia being directed at people who make requests like the OP these days. All we're looking for is options which don't force us to either A) make a pass at [insert romantic interest here] or act like a dick.

Agreed.

However, I think most of al this comes from the fact that we've been so ingrained with the amazingly bad romancing plot in ME1 that it's kind of hard to NOT try to work around any traps set unintentionally.

[Nightwriter]

Why do you feel this way about gay ninjamancing instead of just like ninjamancing in general. To me the problem is ambiguous romance triggers, period.

[Rodus Maxumus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Why do you feel this way about gay ninjamancing instead of just like ninjamancing in general. To me the problem is ambiguous romance triggers, period.

I was talking about both, you have a three or four word ambiguous explanation that sometimes has little to do with the next few minutes’ conversation. That is why I’m asking for the context to be given.
The reason I pointed out the Cortez interactions was I felt they did not work. They tried to mash together a gay romance and a gay/straight friendship and they failed. That is why I suggested the “gay” option so they can block off and/or change some dialog options so the interactions feel more real instead of what it really was, was that Cortez was the token gay love interest that was poorly written.

[Rodus Maxumus]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I believe it’s great that Bio Ware accommodates the gay and bi community, but I would like to see sexuality in character creation as that is a major part of who you are and the way some people will treat you (both good and bad).

Your post is considered hate speech by Bioware so it's fair to assume that this isn't gonna happen.

So man up and try reading the dialogue option before blindly picking top right every time because "Shepard's a paragon!11eleven"

Pull your head in and stop trying to make this into something it’s not.

[AlexMBrennan]

On the SWTOR forums it is against the forum rules to ask for a "gay romance toggle" option - what part of that do you not understand?
It may be a different team, but I'd bet that they'll share the same opinion on the issue.

[ElitePinecone]

osbornep wrote...

I know David Gaider's not on the ME team, but for what it's worth, here's his take on the "toggle solution."

Yep. 

Long story short, they aren't doing a toggle, ever:

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.

(And why do all these posts about wanting toggles basically boil down to "I felt uncomfortable with the undertones of the dialogue"? Do we ever see proposals for gating same-sex content from people who enthusiastically consume it?)

[thebigbad1013]

I pretty much disagree with this. I mean, say my character is gay, why should that have any impact whatsoever on how people would treat him? Most people probably wouldn't even know his sexual preference and even if they did know...so what? Why would it be relevant enough to warrant a toggle option? I just don't get it. And as for Steve in ME3 I really don't see a problem with how that character was handled--in fact, I think it was handled quite well.

In short; it's 2014...let's close the door on silly stuff like this because, at the end of the day, it really is a silly thing to be worrying about.

[Rodus Maxumus]

ElitePinecone wrote...

osbornep wrote...

I know David Gaider's not on the ME team, but for what it's worth, here's his take on the "toggle solution."

Yep. 

Long story short, they aren't doing a toggle, ever:

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.

(And why do all these posts about wanting toggles basically boil down to "I felt uncomfortable with the undertones of the dialogue"? Do we ever see proposals for gating same-sex content from people who enthusiastically consume it?)

It has NOTHING to do with feeling “uncomfortable”, don’t lay that crap on my door. If someone says something to a friend and then say the same thing to someone they have genuine romantic feelings for most of the times you will hear a difference in their voice for the same statement. And Matthew Del ****** who did the voice for Cortez did a good job as you could hear that affection in his voice. But the problem is that BW used those same voice overs when Shepard and Cortez are just friends that was jarring because it was out of place and it ruined my immersion in the game.
So get off your homophobic bandwagon.

[Teddie Sage]

Sorry Rodus, but it does sound homophobic.

[ElitePinecone]

I imagine that if you felt comfortable with the dialogue you wouldn't be writing a long post asking for a toggle to switch off that kind of thing from future experiences.

I mean, with some significant exceptions, it's usually not such a big deal if someone makes an advance towards you. In your game, after all, Shepard is as straight as you say he is. Lines of dialogue from another character can't change that. Whatever Cortez said, or however he said it, the behaviour of an NPC in the game has no bearing on the sexuality of your character.

If a toggle implies that you'd only be happy in a situation whereby the game 100% excluded your character from even the possibility of any flirtatious or romantic dialogue with someone of the same gender, then I'd argue that your position is problematic. As Mr Gaider pointed out, even the most charitable interpretation of this - that you want to target content towards players who would use it - carries pretty major overtones of quarantining certain types of content because people find it objectionable, which is something that Bioware does to literally no other themes in its games. Even if a toggle were *only* designed to streamline the romances and eliminate confusion, can't you see how it would look from the outside? The overwhelming majority of people asking for a toggle do, on some level, have a desire to remove same-sex content from their gameworld. Rightly or wrongly, Bioware would give the impression that gay characters were being segregated, "removed", marginalised or downplayed. Even with the very best of intentions, that *is* how a toggle would be interpreted.

If your post was a request for the voiceover people to be more careful in how they direct the actors, or for the cinematics people to be more careful in which lines they use at certain moments, then I would entirely agree. Bioware *should* avoid situations that convey confusing or incorrect undertones. But wanting to toggle all of that content off comes across as your having an issue with the same-sex relationship, not the way in which it was handled or delivered. Bioware already went to great lengths in ME3 to let you know exactly what you were getting into - Cortez mentions his husband about ten seconds after you meet him - and Steve is arguably "successful" because he's unobtrusive to the point of being invisible. Unobtrusive to the point of being dull and one-note, I think, but that's another issue.

(I'll note, for example, that Cortez's romance is literally the only one in any Bioware game, ever, that gives you gigantic and obvious escape routes in the dialogue - "I'll be watching the ladies", "I've already found the right woman" - and requires *multiple* upper-corner flirt options, that are clearly signposted, before you even get a chance to start the relationship.)

[Grizzly46]

Rodus Maxumus wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

osbornep wrote...

I know David Gaider's not on the ME team, but for what it's worth, here's his take on the "toggle solution."

Yep. 

Long story short, they aren't doing a toggle, ever:

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.

(And why do all these posts about wanting toggles basically boil down to "I felt uncomfortable with the undertones of the dialogue"? Do we ever see proposals for gating same-sex content from people who enthusiastically consume it?)

It has NOTHING to do with feeling “uncomfortable”, don’t lay that crap on my door. If someone says something to a friend and then say the same thing to someone they have genuine romantic feelings for most of the times you will hear a difference in their voice for the same statement. And Matthew Del ****** who did the voice for Cortez did a good job as you could hear that affection in his voice. But the problem is that BW used those same voice overs when Shepard and Cortez are just friends that was jarring because it was out of place and it ruined my immersion in the game.
So get off your homophobic bandwagon.

For me too. I didn't have a problem with Cortez being gay, I had a problem with that my maleShep didn't have a middle-ground in the interaction with Steve - it was either "buddy-buddy" or "Straighten up, soldier!" when the interactions didn't get jarring enough because they didn't include VO to cover situations with a maleShep being friends with Cortez. That Cortez in turn showed affection for my Shep didn't bother me, since that fitted his personality and his orientation.

And regarding that article linked to earlier, I call that a whole wagon of BS. Sure, until the player makes it clear which way the character swings there shouldn't be any difference in reactions and actions towards him/her. But after that, others within the player character's range so to speak would probably try to get in closer, while those outside it would just not care any longer: In the same vein, it is fully possible to do VO for a lot of situations that only affected a very limited number of players - thus it is just a question of doing that as well for interactions between characters that are just friends and nothing else.
A male straight player character should not be in anyone's flirtation range unless they are a) female and straight themselves, just as a gay male player character should not be targetted for flirtation by the same, still straight females.

Bioware knows that romances are something players take seriously, so a tick box or some way to ensure you are not potentially screwing something up because interactions are unclear would be most welcome.

[ElitePinecone]

Grizzly46 wrote...

A male straight player character should not be in anyone's flirtation range unless they are a) female and straight themselves, just as a gay male player character should not be targetted for flirtation by the same, still straight females.

This is an interesting point, because it's come up previously in situations in ME and ME2 where (male) gay Shepard had flirtatious undertones to some dialogue with female characters, because in those games Shepard was assumed to be straight. I know a number of people who were pretty upset that this happened, but they certainly aren't asking for a toggle - they just wanted the game to be neutral about their character's sexuality until they get a chance to shape it though dialogue choices. None of them wanted the option to define their Shepard as gay, but they did want the developers to take more care in what the protagonist said when not under player control. 

Beyond that, I can see a broader issue with the solution of one toggle affecting everyone's interactions with you - namely, how is this remotely realistic, let alone in good taste? 

When you establish (let's say via a character creator checkbox) that your Shepard is straight, does it immediately flash up in bright lights above their head so that every single person they meet for the next ten hours knows it? Does Shepard make a point of announcing his heterosexuality when they encounter someone new? If one dialogue reply is enough to cement that status among your entire crew, should we imagine everyone Shepard knows is secretly gossiping behind their back? If literally every person we meet knows whether they'll have a shot at seducing Shepard or not, should we assume that the sexuality of the player character, this military space marine/galactic hero person, is basically known across the entire galaxy? Isn't that both obtrusive and unnecessary? 

What I think is a more fundamental issue is this: unless you know beforehand, you (generally) can't tell someone's sexuality by looking at them. There's no magical way for someone you meet to know that you like them, or that you have no interest in them, except by your actions - which, in Mass Effect, is only handled by dialogue. That's what the games do at the moment, basically: either you or the NPC makes a romantic advance, and you can choose to accept or refuse it. 

The present system, as flawed as it is, is infinitely better than a magical toggle that establishes your character's sexuality as something that they give off via pheremones or whatever. Testing the waters with dialogue is more dynamic, more realistic and more *human*. 

And sorry, but if you can't handle two lines of a same-sex character flirting with Shepard - which can be refused immediately - I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

[eshrafel]

I pretty much agree with Pinecone up here. Occasionally, writers have probably subconsciously made an assumption when jotting down dialogue, and it hasn't gotten picked up in a review. Hence some lines that might not be appropriate for *your* Shepard slip through. This kind of thing will just happen. Yes, it will lead to the odd awkward/peculiar moment, but to be honest for me these have felt no more awkward/peculiar than using the Paragon option one too many times when talking with crewmember x.

Plus I much prefer exploring friendships/relationships in game via dialogue as opposed to any settings. By far.

But that said, it almost seems like we need something a bit more useful or specific... like perhaps multiple choices of dialogue with text instead of a simple 3 option wheel, perhaps?