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Sexuality in character creation and context in dialog.


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#76
Vapaa

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78stonewobble wrote...
In the case of a non-intelligent game that cannot "guess" sex with a reasonable degree of accuracy from looks or bodylanguage we ARE forced to input the setting specifically.


The game doesn't guess, the game has a binary conception male/female, which is a an acceptable dichotomy, because society is built on the duality of gender, the situation is unclear only on very small occasions....sexuality on the other is way more blurred and unclear, you can't compare gender and sexuality.

78stonewobble wrote...
2: By observation, conversation of other parts of characters lives.


Then a toggle would be useless, since it's actions who tells that to other people

78stonewobble wrote...
3: Actually I do find it silly that everyone throws themselves at sheppard allmost purely based on gender and sexuality. I think that that part of the game, the romance part, would be much better if certain characters were only into certain personality types and/or looks and/or commonalities. Which could only make it that much more realistic.


That's appealing but I wouldn't want it in an RPG game, since it would take way more effort than the romances are worth

78stonewobble wrote...
4: I don't really recognice the part about hitting on people that are genuinely and completely disinterested. Atleast not from someting in my life. My brain seems to not let me develop any romantical feelings for someone I'm not interested in or someone that is genuinely disinterested in me. Ie. I love my coffee .. but I don't fall in love with my coffee...


I think you completely misunderstood me, I'am saying that you have no control on who fall in love with you in real life, then why should you have that control on a game, after all is just a fictional character hitting on your fictional character, just reject him/her and move on, why go all the trouble to have a toggle for gating magically a certain type of people ?

78stonewobble wrote...
5: That is really only an argument for accepting the status quo and never looking to improve anything.


You can throw billions in a game and make a 50-year developpement, you will ALWAYS be limited in terms of dialogue (among other things, since games are always finite) because a game can't fully satisfy every single person on earth. As a player you have to accept the fact that some lines may annoy you but you just have to deal with it

Modifié par Vapaä, 13 février 2014 - 01:30 .


#77
Draining Dragon

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Having a sexuality option at the beginning of the game which changed how people reacted to you would be interesting, but then you would have idiots claiming Bioware is homophobic because people treat you different based on your sexuality.

Sort of like people who claim Quentin Tarantino is racist because his movies have the n-word.

While I'm sure most people would be prepared to handle this maturely, the few who can't would create a huge fuss, probably with lawsuits.

#78
Moonshadow_Dark

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How about instead of doing all that needless Character Creation rehauling, they could just pull a SWTOR and add a big [Flirt] sign right next to the dialog option. There, now you know what you're about to say will be romantic in nature. If you have a problem with boy/boy love or girl on girl action, you simply do not select the option and move on with your game.

#79
katamuro

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Moonshadow_Dark wrote...

How about instead of doing all that needless Character Creation rehauling, they could just pull a SWTOR and add a big [Flirt] sign right next to the dialog option. There, now you know what you're about to say will be romantic in nature. If you have a problem with boy/boy love or girl on girl action, you simply do not select the option and move on with your game.


Yup that should do it quite well, they did something similar in DA2 by the way. But I have to say navigating the ME dialogues skillfully enough not to cause a wrong reaction from some npc is quite fun. You never know how the other one will take it so you take a chance which is basically like real world.

#80
78stonewobble

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Vapaä wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
In the case of a non-intelligent game that cannot "guess" sex with a reasonable degree of accuracy from looks or bodylanguage we ARE forced to input the setting specifically.


1: The game doesn't guess, the game has a binary conception male/female, which is a an acceptable dichotomy, because society is built on the duality of gender, the situation is unclear only on very small occasions....sexuality on the other is way more blurred and unclear, you can't compare gender and sexuality.

78stonewobble wrote...
2: By observation, conversation of other parts of characters lives.


2: Then a toggle would be useless, since it's actions who tells that to other people

78stonewobble wrote...
3: Actually I do find it silly that everyone throws themselves at sheppard allmost purely based on gender and sexuality. I think that that part of the game, the romance part, would be much better if certain characters were only into certain personality types and/or looks and/or commonalities. Which could only make it that much more realistic.


3: That's appealing but I wouldn't want it in an RPG game, since it would take way more effort than the romances are worth

78stonewobble wrote...
4: I don't really recognice the part about hitting on people that are genuinely and completely disinterested. Atleast not from someting in my life. My brain seems to not let me develop any romantical feelings for someone I'm not interested in or someone that is genuinely disinterested in me. Ie. I love my coffee .. but I don't fall in love with my coffee...


4: I think you completely misunderstood me, I'am saying that you have no control on who fall in love with you in real life, then why should you have that control on a game, after all is just a fictional character hitting on your fictional character, just reject him/her and move on, why go all the trouble to have a toggle for gating magically a certain type of people ?

78stonewobble wrote...
5: That is really only an argument for accepting the status quo and never looking to improve anything.


5: You can throw billions in a game and make a 50-year developpement, you will ALWAYS be limited in terms of dialogue (among other things, since games are always finite) because a game can't fully satisfy every single person on earth. As a player you have to accept the fact that some lines may annoy you but you just have to deal with it


1: For the vast majority of people I know their sexuality is just as ingrained as personality or gender. There might have been some confusion at some point (a very short period relative to the average lifespan) in their lives, but past that point it is just who they are. Just another block of the whole puzzle as so many other aspects of people. 

2: A toggle would help prevent ie. a situation where a npc character that is supposed to be your long time friend and know you well, will need to be told of your sexuality... It can be needed for literary purposes, but other than that it would be an immersion breaking conversation.

3: I didn't mean that your player character should adopt different oppinions towards different love interests or that it should be turned into a minigame. :) 

I meant in the sense that a well written and consistent potential love interest... Would be attracted to ie. a paragon or renegade shep. That you decide upon your player characters personality and that just doesn't match with every single li. The love interests should be consistent characters that stick to their ... morals and personalities....

PS: Paragon and renegade matches was just an example of how it could be done relatively simple. You can add as much detail as you want to it offcourse.

4: Yeah I did misunderstand you, I guess... Uhm but what I meant was what I mentioned in 3... That I prefer that conversation choices and romance options are consistent with characters through out the game. My player character and the NPC characters (however they were imagined by the writer). So sure ... an npc can be made to jump on anything with a pulse if thats how you want that character. I just personally find it more immersive and realistic if not all of them are like that.

5: I agree with all of that... But... as I said in another post... We dont know how important this is to how many people, what the cost will be (dependent on the amount of romance compaired to the entire game) and whether it'll pay off to add it or not.

Ie. it can be 57 people in the entire world that cares little about it... Then I'd say that it wouldn't be worth it.

If on the other hand 62 percent of all buyers of me3 thinks it's a great idea that would add alot to the game. Sure... why not make them happy. 

I don't know the numbers, but I think we can only find out about it by hearing people's oppinions on it for starters.

PPS: I personally try to be really carefull to not tell other people what they should find important in their lives. I'm not them and cannot decide for them how they should live their life. I can only give my oppinion on a subject for comparitive purposes. Not that I feel you did this, it was more of a general comment. Image IPB 

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 13 février 2014 - 04:49 .


#81
Vapaa

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Draining Dragon wrote...

but then you would have idiots claiming Bioware is homophobic because people treat you different based on your sexuality.


Without talking about homophobia, Bioware did commit a few double standards, the most jarring was in ME1 when they claimed DudeShep was as straight as an arrow and then they threw in a lesbian romance because girl on girl is hot.

78stonewobble wrote...
1: For the vast majority of people I know their sexuality is just as ingrained as personality or gender.


And how visible is it ? could the first person in the street knew their sexuality ?

78stonewobble wrote...
2: A toggle would help prevent ie. a situation where a npc character that is supposed to be your long time friend and know you well, will need to be told of your sexuality... It can be needed for literary purposes, but other than that it would be an immersion breaking conversation.


Why would it be immersion breaking ?

78stonewobble wrote...
3: I didn't mean that your player character should adopt different oppinions towards different love interests or that it should be turned into a minigame. :)


That's even worse: a romance minigame...blegh
What I am saying essentially is when you start putting one thing on the equation, then you should put everything in it: species, physics, personality, etc....but the cost in time and money is only woth if you're planning a dating simulator, and if you are, I'm outta here.

78stonewobble wrote...
4: Yeah I did misunderstand you, I guess... Uhm but what I meant was what I mentioned in 3... That I prefer that conversation choices and romance options are consistent with characters through out the game. My player character and the NPC characters (however they were imagined by the writer). So sure ... an npc can be made to jump on anything with a pulse if thats how you want that character. I just personally find it more immersive and realistic if not all of them are like that.


Then the fact than an NPC hits on your character is according to the NPC's personality, not a toggle; a toggle would basically stop Sam hitting on Femshep, how would that make it more consistent with Sam's character who is explicitly lesbian ?

78stonewobble wrote...
5: I agree with all of that... But... as I said in another post... We dont know how important this is to how many people, what the cost will be (dependent on the amount of romance compaired to the entire game) and whether it'll pay off to add it or not.


I was talking about dialogue limitations, you will always being limited to handful of options.

#82
78stonewobble

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Vapaä wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
1: For the vast majority of people I know their sexuality is just as ingrained as personality or gender.


1: And how visible is it ? could the first person in the street knew their sexuality ?

78stonewobble wrote...
2: A toggle would help prevent ie. a situation where a npc character that is supposed to be your long time friend and know you well, will need to be told of your sexuality... It can be needed for literary purposes, but other than that it would be an immersion breaking conversation.


2: Why would it be immersion breaking ?

78stonewobble wrote...
3: I didn't mean that your player character should adopt different oppinions towards different love interests or that it should be turned into a minigame. :)


3: That's even worse: a romance minigame...blegh
What I am saying essentially is when you start putting one thing on the equation, then you should put everything in it: species, physics, personality, etc....but the cost in time and money is only woth if you're planning a dating simulator, and if you are, I'm outta here.

78stonewobble wrote...
4: Yeah I did misunderstand you, I guess... Uhm but what I meant was what I mentioned in 3... That I prefer that conversation choices and romance options are consistent with characters through out the game. My player character and the NPC characters (however they were imagined by the writer). So sure ... an npc can be made to jump on anything with a pulse if thats how you want that character. I just personally find it more immersive and realistic if not all of them are like that.


4: Then the fact than an NPC hits on your character is according to the NPC's personality, not a toggle; a toggle would basically stop Sam hitting on Femshep, how would that make it more consistent with Sam's character who is explicitly lesbian ?

78stonewobble wrote...
5: I agree with all of that... But... as I said in another post... We dont know how important this is to how many people, what the cost will be (dependent on the amount of romance compaired to the entire game) and whether it'll pay off to add it or not.


5: I was talking about dialogue limitations, you will always being limited to handful of options.


1: Visibility is completely irrelevant as 99.999999999 percent of people on the street their sexuality is irrelevant to me, just like gender.

2: Because if the game and the story within says that my player character and a npc friend or potential love interest has known eachother for X years and know eachother very well... Then any kind of comment which has the purpose of informing of one of the chars sexuality, whether direct or indirect... is a:

 "I like turtles" moment.

Also... why do we need the gender selection... surely there are some that doesn't find this immersion breaking and thus we can all use one sex... arbitrarily selected by a dice roll.

3: Sorry, but I specifically state that it should NOT be turned into a minigame.

I don't really see the connection any more than giving us the ability to change hair colour suddenly also gave us destructable terrain as an example.

What I am saying is that if it is a sought after feature that will make enough potential buyers happy or more happy with the game, then they should think about whether it's worth it.

4: Because it's pretty stupid to have gay characters hitting on straight characters, straight characters hitting on gay characters. Ironically flirting or for acknowledged bi characters? Sure... Actually hitting on? No thanks... I've never ever experienced people genuinely hitting on other people they absolutely know are not into them.
 
5: Offcourse we're limited to few options... But I'm all for making them better and fit the characters more.

#83
Vapaa

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78stonewobble wrote...
1: Visibility is completely irrelevant as 99.999999999 percent of people on the street their sexuality is irrelevant to me, just like gender.


It is relevant if you are planning to include it in a character creator, because the question will be: how the game world would know about it ? the gameworld knows if Shepard is a man or a woman on a glance, but sexuality is impossible to guess by just looking at person's apparence

78stonewobble wrote...
2: Because if the game and the story within says that my player character and a npc friend or potential love interest has known eachother for X years and know eachother very well... Then any kind of comment which has the purpose of informing of one of the chars sexuality, whether direct or indirect... is a:


You don't need to inform the other of your sexuality

78stonewobble wrote...
Also... why do we need the gender selection... surely there are some that doesn't find this immersion breaking and thus we can all use one sex... arbitrarily selected by a dice roll.


Because some players wants to play a man and others want to play a woman, duh

78stonewobble wrote...
What I am saying is that if it is a sought after feature that will make enough potential buyers happy or more happy with the game, then they should think about whether it's worth it.


Romance is kind of woth it, but the finally low number of people who are interested makes me think they should leave it as a pleasant extra

78stonewobble wrote...
4: Because it's pretty stupid to have gay characters hitting on straight characters, straight characters hitting on gay characters. Ironically flirting or for acknowledged bi characters? Sure... Actually hitting on? No thanks... I've never ever experienced people genuinely hitting on other people they absolutely know are not into them.


But the thing is: do they know ? if someone doesn't talk about their sexuality or act on it, how would someone know if they're gay or straight ?
 

78stonewobble wrote...
5: Offcourse we're limited to few options... But I'm all for making them better and fit the characters more.


So am I.

#84
78stonewobble

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Vapaä wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
1: Visibility is completely irrelevant as 99.999999999 percent of people on the street their sexuality is irrelevant to me, just like gender.


1: It is relevant if you are planning to include it in a character creator, because the question will be: how the game world would know about it ? the gameworld knows if Shepard is a man or a woman on a glance, but sexuality is impossible to guess by just looking at person's apparence

78stonewobble wrote...
2: Because if the game and the story within says that my player character and a npc friend or potential love interest has known eachother for X years and know eachother very well... Then any kind of comment which has the purpose of informing of one of the chars sexuality, whether direct or indirect... is a:


2: You don't need to inform the other of your sexuality

78stonewobble wrote...
Also... why do we need the gender selection... surely there are some that doesn't find this immersion breaking and thus we can all use one sex... arbitrarily selected by a dice roll.


3: Because some players wants to play a man and others want to play a woman, duh

78stonewobble wrote...
What I am saying is that if it is a sought after feature that will make enough potential buyers happy or more happy with the game, then they should think about whether it's worth it.


4: Romance is kind of woth it, but the finally low number of people who are interested makes me think they should leave it as a pleasant extra

78stonewobble wrote...
 Because it's pretty stupid to have gay characters hitting on straight characters, straight characters hitting on gay characters. Ironically flirting or for acknowledged bi characters? Sure... Actually hitting on? No thanks... I've never ever experienced people genuinely hitting on other people they absolutely know are not into them.


5: But the thing is: do they know ? if someone doesn't talk about their sexuality or act on it, how would someone know if they're gay or straight ?
 

78stonewobble wrote...
Offcourse we're limited to few options... But I'm all for making them better and fit the characters more.


6: So am I.


1: No the game does not know whether the player character is female or male from "a glance". We specifically tell it to note whether the main character is a specific gender to avoid npc's calling a man ma'am or a woman sir and stuff much more awkward than that. In that way there is no difference between gender and/or sexuality ... to avoid awkward dialogue that doesn't fit the stupposed character relationship because sexuality would be known to ie. people who have known each other for a long time and/or good friends. Even if it's never mentioned directly.

2: Using me as an example. I don't run around with a t-shirt spelling out my sexuality... but everyone who knows me even periferally would be able to make an educated (and 90 percent of the time) correct guess on my sexuality. Just based on ordinary small talk and ie. a general discussion of relationships where I'd be making references to my past ones.

3: The point was that it could be construed as immersion breaking to be forced to play as a man or a woman if you wanted to roleplay another gender. The same could be said for this... it depends on the players subjective priorities whether this sexuality thing is a problem and how big it is.

Personally I rate sexuality based awkward dialogue as tiny problem compaired to the bigger problem of awkward dialogue overall.

4: I think that some romance does have it's place in a game like the mass effect series. To me it's like... hmm how to put this...

A sci fi game doesn't need romance, but it can be a very emotionally engaging game, which heightens the quality of the game, if it has such detailed characters that we can like them enough to think of them romantically.

Don't need it, but it makes the experience better.

But offcourse ... on the flip side... I'd get completely bored with a loveboat simulator. It needs action, a detailed universe, decent gameplay and a decent story too.

5: I have never really known anyone in my private sphere to be that completely private not just about sexuality but any and all previous and current relationships. Offcourse there have been some ie. colleagues that were never part of my private sphere and there I would not know, but if they're that distanced from me. Odds are low that I'd be hitting on them or vice versa. And none of the possible love interests are ... random pickups at bars... sofar atleast lol.

6: As I said I personally think this is a small problem, but it would be nice if our few dialogue options fit as good as possible to whatever characters we can dream up. Whether through options like this or better planning or whatever is possible in a real world :)

#85
ElitePinecone

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Rodus Maxumus wrote...

But I will raise one question why do people believe a sexuality option is a bad thing? Yes there will be people that would welcome a gay free option because of religion, culture and/or they are not ready to come to terms with their own sexuality. But for me I do not see a sexuality option as a “gay wall” more as an indicator of what dialog and voice over tracks to use.


My two cents: 

It's just... awkward and ungainly. Even if you're proposing it with the best of intentions (to match players with dialogue that best suits them), you can bet that it would be portrayed in the media and by conservative critics as either a way of walling off same-sex content, or an option that guarantees that people see it. Would people still complain if they saw same-sex content or NPCs and they hadn't picked the gay option? Would Fox News have a field day with the fact that Little Timmy can boot up the game and see "BISEXUAL" in huge letters right at the start of character creation?

Asking the player to chooe sexuality so blatantly at character creation is in bad taste. A toggle would throw it up there as an attribute that the player needs to decide from the outset, instead of approaching the romantic content organically. For what amounts to such a small amount of content in the romance arcs, it just seems unnecessary to make us decide sexuality as if it's as big an influence on the game experience as gender or class. 

And I honestly don't see any advantage with a toggle that we don't already have with the dialogue system. As long as the flirt options are gated correctly, I've never had much of an issue about being accidentally romanced. 

(Also: how exactly would a toggle mean other characters know to flirt with the appropriate gender of Shepard? Does Shepard go around wearing a sign with their sexual orientation on it or something?)

#86
ElitePinecone

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78stonewobble wrote...

In my social circles people's sexuality has either been assumed or stated once... in matter of factly kinda way. The topic has then only come up exceedingly rarely in either day to day talk or even in personally intimate conversations.
That does sound like a sort of "software flag" thats set once and allmost never consciously thought about again other than having set a few mental background software rules.

It's somewhat different in a setting like Mass Effect, though, where a majority of the characters are professional soldiers on some sort of mission. They've had at most weeks to know each other, aren't good friends, and spend most of their time talking about how to stay alive. Conversations like the one with Cortez aside ("oh sorry Commander, didn't see you there - was just playing a video of my dead husband, who sure is really dead and my husband hint hint") how likely is it that someone's sexuality would ever come up in conversation in the middle of a warzone? Is it relevant to anything that Shepard would ever actually talk to the crew about?

Even if you assume that the crew gradually gets a sense of who the player-character is into by a whole lot of conversations taking place off-screen, how does that explain everyone else in the universe knowing within seconds of meeting us? If the toggle idea disables casual flirting, then all the people we meet for the first time somehow magically know Shepard's sexual preferences.

The way the system works at the moment with dialogue is, if anything, far more realistic and human. If you like someone, or they like you, there's tentative flirting and advances. You or they can decline it. I don't see anything wrong with this system, and I think it's actually far more simple and intuitive than a toggle at character creation.

#87
78stonewobble

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ElitePinecone wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

In my social circles people's sexuality has either been assumed or stated once... in matter of factly kinda way. The topic has then only come up exceedingly rarely in either day to day talk or even in personally intimate conversations.
That does sound like a sort of "software flag" thats set once and allmost never consciously thought about again other than having set a few mental background software rules.

It's somewhat different in a setting like Mass Effect, though, where a majority of the characters are professional soldiers on some sort of mission. They've had at most weeks to know each other, aren't good friends, and spend most of their time talking about how to stay alive. Conversations like the one with Cortez aside ("oh sorry Commander, didn't see you there - was just playing a video of my dead husband, who sure is really dead and my husband hint hint") how likely is it that someone's sexuality would ever come up in conversation in the middle of a warzone? Is it relevant to anything that Shepard would ever actually talk to the crew about?

Even if you assume that the crew gradually gets a sense of who the player-character is into by a whole lot of conversations taking place off-screen, how does that explain everyone else in the universe knowing within seconds of meeting us? If the toggle idea disables casual flirting, then all the people we meet for the first time somehow magically know Shepard's sexual preferences.

The way the system works at the moment with dialogue is, if anything, far more realistic and human. If you like someone, or they like you, there's tentative flirting and advances. You or they can decline it. I don't see anything wrong with this system, and I think it's actually far more simple and intuitive than a toggle at character creation.


Well I've never been in battle, but the saying of 90 percent of waiting and 10 percent of extreme... not anxiety, but maybe anticipation and alertness I have heard from people who have been in it.

I'd argue that when people talk together over any period of time it does not take long to make a reasonably educated guess as to what their sexuality is, whether they like sportscars, are vegetarian or loves meat .... You don't learn everything from the first minute, but you will learn something everytime you spend time with someone.

Please note... I'm not against that if 2 characters are just being introduced to eachother in a game or haven't reached that level of knowing eachother misunderstandings might occur.

I just personally find it somewhat jarring and immersion ruining, if the misunderstanding is between 2 characters that are supposed to know eachother very well. 

It's not really a problem in any of the mass effect game we have, but I have no idea what characters and what kind of stories they want to tell in the future.

Principally I just want as much of the dialogue as possible to have a literary purpose and to fit the characters and their relations to my character, not be a non intentional side effect of the games inability to know how I want to roleplay my protagonist. An inability that could be solved with something as simple as putting a mark in one of 2 boxes.

Again not saying an option like this absolutely should be there, but just that it's worth to think about if any future game will have proportionately bigger amount of dialogue relevant and enough people find it a big enough problem. Also not saying that it could not be fully or atleast minimised via other options.  

PS: You are both probably and sadly correct that it's would be nigh impossible to implement it for "political" reasons... Man, stuff like that allways diminishes my outlook on humanity in general. Not much but a little every time.

PPS: Not at you, but in general directed at the thread.

My sole motivation for arguing that this should be give some thought is that I think everyone of us have a right to have their own subjective priorities for what is important and not, which then results in people having different tastes in what makes ie. a game better or worse for them and then the right to utter this ... oppinion... of what would improve the game for them individually (theres a thread at the top of the forum asking for suggestions).

As suggestons go... this isn't one that would limit other people with other priorities their own way of playing the game instead it seeks to only improve the gameplay for people who feel similarly. I see no inherent problem in that and I'd never support a suggestion that severely curtailed other peoples enjoyment of the game.

If it's too costly or only 1 in a 100 people cares about it and thus it isn't built in or even that bioware just want to take potential political heat. So be it, no problem there... Can't satisfy everyone and nor should you allways.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 14 février 2014 - 10:41 .


#88
ElitePinecone

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David Gaider explained his own position on the toggle (which isn't the company's position, necessarily) - I feel like it sums up the main issues I have with it too:

There are a few issues with that, from a development perspective. The first is our need to treat every version of the game, whether that feature has been turned on or off, as a legitimate way to play and thus one we must test. The more fundamental a mechanic that is affected, the more things it can touch (even inadvertently) and thus the more testing it must receive. We need to be concerned not only about whether that variant works, but also how it affects the play experience.

It’s not about hand-holding or forcing the player to experience the game only a certain way, but about avoiding the player getting a radically different experience of which they may not be aware and for which we would be responsible anyhow, since we provided the option. You click that option in the settings, thinking it will do one thing, but end up getting something different. We have to consider that, and consider how well it meshes up with the experience we are otherwise crafting, and which we intend to support.

It is not, after all, like we can throw something into the options menu and absolve ourselves of responsibility for it. “Hey, you picked that option, man. It’s not our fault it changed your game experience.” We thus select our provided options carefully.

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.


Personally speaking, the weirdness of a toggle is far more immersion-breaking than a character Shepard has known for a while not being intimately aware of their sexuality.

#89
78stonewobble

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ElitePinecone wrote...

David Gaider explained his own position on the toggle (which isn't the company's position, necessarily) - I feel like it sums up the main issues I have with it too:

There are a few issues with that, from a development perspective. The first is our need to treat every version of the game, whether that feature has been turned on or off, as a legitimate way to play and thus one we must test. The more fundamental a mechanic that is affected, the more things it can touch (even inadvertently) and thus the more testing it must receive. We need to be concerned not only about whether that variant works, but also how it affects the play experience.

It’s not about hand-holding or forcing the player to experience the game only a certain way, but about avoiding the player getting a radically different experience of which they may not be aware and for which we would be responsible anyhow, since we provided the option. You click that option in the settings, thinking it will do one thing, but end up getting something different. We have to consider that, and consider how well it meshes up with the experience we are otherwise crafting, and which we intend to support.

It is not, after all, like we can throw something into the options menu and absolve ourselves of responsibility for it. “Hey, you picked that option, man. It’s not our fault it changed your game experience.” We thus select our provided options carefully.

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.


Personally speaking, the weirdness of a toggle is far more immersion-breaking than a character Shepard has known for a while not being intimately aware of their sexuality.


To the first part about technical isssues with something like this. I'd imagine they were exactly the same as the gender toggle.

Where it is a completely acceptable amount of work due to the benefits it brings to most players experience of the game.

Again, not arguin that is the case here, but in principle and to me... It's no different.

On the more ... politically or morality themed part...

Well he does call it a "gay toggle", so offcourse that will put the interpretation of it in a certain way. His points are valid though... but I do find it curious that he makes the mental leap to it being about "not making players uncomfortable".

I'd LOVE a game that made me "uncomfortable". In my case not with ie. blood and gore... But a game that was immersive enough to make me agonize over ... ie. sacrificing the geth or other questions of morality? Thats a good game that does that.

Thats not what I seek to avoid at all... what I seek to avoid is things that lessens the impact of something like above because it made me less immersed.

He does mention that they don't allow players to deselect content, which is not quite true, atleast from the perspective of this being like choosing gender. That option does put certain limits on the gaming experience... Steering it down a certain path while locking out other stuff. It deselects stuff and we wouldn't know what it was unless we read a walkthrough or read up on the forums.

At your last bit... If the toggle/option popped up ingame at the first possible romantic line of dialogue... Yeah I'm completely with you that this would be even more immersion breaking, but as part as a pregame character creation screen, there I personally wouldn't mind it.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 14 février 2014 - 11:01 .


#90
katamuro

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ElitePinecone wrote...

David Gaider explained his own position on the toggle (which isn't the company's position, necessarily) - I feel like it sums up the main issues I have with it too:

There are a few issues with that, from a development perspective. The first is our need to treat every version of the game, whether that feature has been turned on or off, as a legitimate way to play and thus one we must test. The more fundamental a mechanic that is affected, the more things it can touch (even inadvertently) and thus the more testing it must receive. We need to be concerned not only about whether that variant works, but also how it affects the play experience.

It’s not about hand-holding or forcing the player to experience the game only a certain way, but about avoiding the player getting a radically different experience of which they may not be aware and for which we would be responsible anyhow, since we provided the option. You click that option in the settings, thinking it will do one thing, but end up getting something different. We have to consider that, and consider how well it meshes up with the experience we are otherwise crafting, and which we intend to support.

It is not, after all, like we can throw something into the options menu and absolve ourselves of responsibility for it. “Hey, you picked that option, man. It’s not our fault it changed your game experience.” We thus select our provided options carefully.

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.


Personally speaking, the weirdness of a toggle is far more immersion-breaking than a character Shepard has known for a while not being intimately aware of their sexuality.


yup that is exactly right. People even knowing your sexual preference might still hit on you or might try, after all human feelings are rather complicated and do not follow logic which is inherent in creating a game "toggle". Also what about asari? they are monogendered they do not care what you are so how would that be handled would it be set to both "true" and "false"?  And as it said in the excerpt made above if you make on kind of toggle people will start expecting toggle for everything they like and dont like and while some of it could be done it would involve horrifying amount of work and expense just to make a few dialogue lines align slightly better. 

#91
RangerSG

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katamuro wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

David Gaider explained his own position on the toggle (which isn't the company's position, necessarily) - I feel like it sums up the main issues I have with it too:

There are a few issues with that, from a development perspective. The first is our need to treat every version of the game, whether that feature has been turned on or off, as a legitimate way to play and thus one we must test. The more fundamental a mechanic that is affected, the more things it can touch (even inadvertently) and thus the more testing it must receive. We need to be concerned not only about whether that variant works, but also how it affects the play experience.

It’s not about hand-holding or forcing the player to experience the game only a certain way, but about avoiding the player getting a radically different experience of which they may not be aware and for which we would be responsible anyhow, since we provided the option. You click that option in the settings, thinking it will do one thing, but end up getting something different. We have to consider that, and consider how well it meshes up with the experience we are otherwise crafting, and which we intend to support.

It is not, after all, like we can throw something into the options menu and absolve ourselves of responsibility for it. “Hey, you picked that option, man. It’s not our fault it changed your game experience.” We thus select our provided options carefully.

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.


Personally speaking, the weirdness of a toggle is far more immersion-breaking than a character Shepard has known for a while not being intimately aware of their sexuality.


yup that is exactly right. People even knowing your sexual preference might still hit on you or might try, after all human feelings are rather complicated and do not follow logic which is inherent in creating a game "toggle". Also what about asari? they are monogendered they do not care what you are so how would that be handled would it be set to both "true" and "false"?  And as it said in the excerpt made above if you make on kind of toggle people will start expecting toggle for everything they like and dont like and while some of it could be done it would involve horrifying amount of work and expense just to make a few dialogue lines align slightly better. 


I don't have a problem with characters hitting on Shepard. What I have a problem with is the binary responses: Either 'let's get it on' or 'get away from me.' There's no, "Thanks, but no thanks" line that a friend would use to keep it a friendship. 

That doesn't require a toggle. And it frankly isn't even an issue of sexuality as such. It's simply a way to say "not interested" without being a jackwagon. 

#92
katamuro

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RangerSG wrote...

katamuro wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

David Gaider explained his own position on the toggle (which isn't the company's position, necessarily) - I feel like it sums up the main issues I have with it too:

There are a few issues with that, from a development perspective. The first is our need to treat every version of the game, whether that feature has been turned on or off, as a legitimate way to play and thus one we must test. The more fundamental a mechanic that is affected, the more things it can touch (even inadvertently) and thus the more testing it must receive. We need to be concerned not only about whether that variant works, but also how it affects the play experience.

It’s not about hand-holding or forcing the player to experience the game only a certain way, but about avoiding the player getting a radically different experience of which they may not be aware and for which we would be responsible anyhow, since we provided the option. You click that option in the settings, thinking it will do one thing, but end up getting something different. We have to consider that, and consider how well it meshes up with the experience we are otherwise crafting, and which we intend to support.

It is not, after all, like we can throw something into the options menu and absolve ourselves of responsibility for it. “Hey, you picked that option, man. It’s not our fault it changed your game experience.” We thus select our provided options carefully.

Beyond that, when it comes to content options like the so-called “gay toggle” …my question would be “why?” We don’t allow the player to de-select other sorts of content. A ‘violence’ toggle? A ‘mention of slavery’ toggle? A ‘sexual situations’ toggle? Why would we have a ‘gay’ toggle? Even if that was just to set the player’s personal preference, and we didn’t think that was incredibly on-the-nose to put up front, would de-selecting the ‘gay’ toggle mean a player should expect to encounter no gay characters? Ever? You don’t think there are those who would interpret it as exactly that?

There’s a degree to which, I think, players should be responsible for their own choices, and that doesn’t include filtering out anything which might potentially make them uncomfortable—not in a game which is labeled as big-M Mature. We’re always going to walk a line between accommodating player desires in-game, and having appropriate reactivity, but that doesn’t quite go so far as offering customizable story options out of the gate.

Some people might like that notion, but I suspect they like it in the purely theoretical and idealized sense. Practically speaking, it’s a rabbit hole that leads nowhere good.


Personally speaking, the weirdness of a toggle is far more immersion-breaking than a character Shepard has known for a while not being intimately aware of their sexuality.


yup that is exactly right. People even knowing your sexual preference might still hit on you or might try, after all human feelings are rather complicated and do not follow logic which is inherent in creating a game "toggle". Also what about asari? they are monogendered they do not care what you are so how would that be handled would it be set to both "true" and "false"?  And as it said in the excerpt made above if you make on kind of toggle people will start expecting toggle for everything they like and dont like and while some of it could be done it would involve horrifying amount of work and expense just to make a few dialogue lines align slightly better. 


I don't have a problem with characters hitting on Shepard. What I have a problem with is the binary responses: Either 'let's get it on' or 'get away from me.' There's no, "Thanks, but no thanks" line that a friend would use to keep it a friendship. 

That doesn't require a toggle. And it frankly isn't even an issue of sexuality as such. It's simply a way to say "not interested" without being a jackwagon. 


On this I agree with you some of the lines are just way too stupid to be said to someone. But as you said it does not need a toggle just a better writing and maybe more dialogue choices. Thats it. To bring better characterisation and immersion all we need is lines that would not make us cringe and hopefully more stuff to choose from to say to people. 

#93
78stonewobble

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katamuro wrote...
yup that is exactly right. People even knowing your sexual preference might still hit on you or might try, after all human feelings are rather complicated and do not follow logic which is inherent in creating a game "toggle". Also what about asari? they are monogendered they do not care what you are so how would that be handled would it be set to both "true" and "false"?  And as it said in the excerpt made above if you make on kind of toggle people will start expecting toggle for everything they like and dont like and while some of it could be done it would involve horrifying amount of work and expense just to make a few dialogue lines align slightly better. 


I've only had that happen to me in a severely drunken stupor after pretending to be the guys boyfriend as a practical joke. 99.99999 percent of the time the concept would be as silly as having a structural column in a building a romantic option in the game.

I'd assume the asari would be set to bisexual (not that we know if they all are... some might have individual preferences).

The rest of the critique is equally applicable for being able to select gender.

Though I agree that a gender option is probably more universally applicable to players whereas this would be for fewer people.