261 réponses à ce sujet

[Zazzerka]

StreetMagic wrote...

That's true though. You don't see many pure "renegade" types. Most people who advocate any of that aren't extreme. It's just doses of realism here and there (sometimes more often than not). Paragons seem to take an explicit moral stance. Like they're trying to be Paladins in Neverwinter Nights or something.

Yeah, I know. It's just some of the vitriol I've seen directed by other users at "Paragon Shepard" comes off very strongly as "Har har, look at him, he wants to be a good person." And, y'know, if you do nothing by follow the blue, you still end up in a relatively peaceful universe. You've played the game wrong, and any arrogance you have as a result is unwarranted, but still.

Also, I've never watched a "Let's Play" in my life, so maybe that's why I'm not seeing these "pure Paragons" as that prevalent.

[dreamgazer]

I like black t-shirts. 

[Zazzerka]

Yeah, so do I actually. It's slimming.

[dreamgazer]

Zazzerka wrote...

Yeah, so do I actually. It's slimming.

Renegade, then. Welcome to the club.

[TheChris92]

Thrown into a bin and then dump it on the Dark Side of the Moon. The moral choice system seems to always adhere either, stab the girl, or rescue her.. There's never a middle ground or choices that actually makes equal amount of sense. In some games, like inFamous, it simply forces you to play it again if you wanna unlock the other toys and that's not what I'd consider good replayability. These so-called ethical choices needs to make equally sense in order to make them feel engaging to role-play. Being evil can be fun but I feel it also has to make sense beyond stabbing the girl for laughs.

Modifié par TheChris92, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:15 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

That's true though. You don't see many pure "renegade" types. Most people who advocate any of that aren't extreme. It's just doses of realism here and there (sometimes more often than not). Paragons seem to take an explicit moral stance. Like they're trying to be Paladins in Neverwinter Nights or something.

edit Or, "Heroism", if you will.


I don't mind some of that. I'm not down with like burning people alive just to get Zaeed's loyalty or anything. I have my limits too.

Does it make me a horrible person because my Shepards allowed the refinery to burn because 1) I wanted Zaeed's loyalty, and 2) I wanted the assault rifle upgrade? and 3) justified it because Shepard doesn't know how to put out a refinery fire. 

[Nightwriter]

The paragon/renegade system should be tossed entirely. So much needless messiness is created by the pressure to force every action into one of two interpretive schools of thought that often overlap.

[Redbelle]

I don't mind the Para/Rene system being overhauled. It's a system that has been used many times in past BW games and perhaps the time has come to rethink how a system of reputation works in their future titles.

But if their new system does not judge my actions as being of a certain morality in the universe my character lives in...... then they should not touch it.

Morality helps to define and shape a players character. Those who like doing things that are judged as bad, yet rationalise it are bad despite good intentions. And vice versa.

Any morality or ethical system that puts puts a number to an action for or for ill must refelct on that character in some way as to be integral to that character's identity.

And lets not look at the morality system as a demon to be slain. It's morality built into an inflexible system that assigns a points value when you arrive at certain crossroads. And because this is shooter RPG in a game..... that's all it ever will be.

Overhauling it to allow greater moral flexibillty may be good for future releases...... but it'll always be limited by the options the game allows.

Therefore. Para and Rene is a great system. Because it's simple. And the galaxy and the people in it can react to that far more easily.

Though I do sometimes wish for DA2's sarcastic responses.

[Dean_the_Young]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I'm playing Mass Effect 2 right now, and I think the morality system is kind of baffling. You get so many random Paragon and Renegade points for saying things that don't necessarily fit into those categories. One moment you might agree with the Illusive Man and get Renegade points, then the next you might express strong disagreement and you get... more Renegade points. Which means that you get Paragon points for agreeing with him. Yeah...

And if you destroy the geth heretics, you get 30 Renegade points. 30 freaking points. And this is a decision that most people would agree with. But if you keep the Collector Base, the choice that frustrates your entire squad, you only get 15 Renegade points.

Really, the morality system in ME2 is a joke. You get too many points from random conversations, and in many cases it's more about your words than your actions. I think ME3 had the best system of the trilogy, but I would prefer no points at all, just character reactions like Dragon Age's system. I want the Paragon/Renegade system to go away, but because it's so fundamental to the established ME experience, I doubt that it will.

It's important to remember what premise the morality system was based around while you're at it.

ME1 had an ideological and thematic P/R spectrum, where Paragon and Renegade correlated to a general political ideal, the Council's professed ideals of how people should act and think. It was pretty position-centric: what you thought was generally more important than how you thought it, though the positions and manner were largely consistent.

ME2 had a tone-based morality system. P/R became more about how you approached something at the moment (kindly or ruthlessly), and less about what the position actually was. This led to a lot of P/R position flip flops, especially with the Geth and TIM, and only loosely identified with ideology.

ME3 pretty much moved away from the bipolar morality system with the Reputation system, which was likely a response to ME2's tendency to force you to stick to P or R for persuasions. There's no single consistent or dominant theme for Paragon or Renegade past a very broad conciliatory/confrontational approach. Even that's hardly consistent. The P/R is generally consistent within the various arcs, but little links between them.

[Sion1138]

I remember KotOR 2 had a system based on influence. It was terribly buggy but great when it worked.

You could turn the characters into Jedi, so you'd have disciples and it was bad-ass.

All of them walking around in robes and carrying lightsabers, and you'd think: I did that, the general.

[Sion1138]

Also, what I'd like to see is a system based on character traits.

Some number of internal variables determining a character's disposition towards you and the events occurring in the world, partly influenced by you.

It could lead to very interesting developments, such as losing companions or facing mutiny. It could also influence their stats and at least some of their dialogue.

It wouldn't be based on good and evil generally as much as individual perceptions. (Integrity, anyone?)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Nightwriter wrote...

The paragon/renegade system should be tossed entirely. So much needless messiness is created by the pressure to force every action into one of two interpretive schools of thought that often overlap.

Ditto. 

I like to base my decisions in games off of reason, logic, and practicality instead of emotion, morality, and ethics.

That said, I don't inherently believe in any universal system of morality. It's a very subjective notion. 

All I care about is accomplishing whatever goals I have set out to achieve. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 janvier 2014 - 04:02 .

[TheChris92]

Sion1138 wrote...

I remember KotOR 2 had a system based on influence. It was terribly buggy but great when it worked.

You could turn the characters into Jedi, so you'd have disciples and it was bad-ass.

All of them walking around in robes and carrying lightsabers, and you'd think: I did that, the general.

Agreed.

[spirosz]

Nightwriter wrote...

The paragon/renegade system should be tossed entirely. So much needless messiness is created by the pressure to force every action into one of two interpretive schools of thought that often overlap.

Yeah I found my first playthrough, I was more concerned with getting more paragon points compared to choosing the dialogue that fit Shepard at the time, though that changed after quite a few playthroughs and later in next installments.  

[SwobyJ]

Don't choose a paragon or renegade option then. Roleplay.

[GreyLycanTrope]

spirosz wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The paragon/renegade system should be tossed entirely. So much needless messiness is created by the pressure to force every action into one of two interpretive schools of thought that often overlap.

Yeah I found my first playthrough, I was more concerned with getting more paragon points compared to choosing the dialogue that fit Shepard at the time, though that changed after quite a few playthroughs and later in next installments.  

I feel that was largely because they tied the persuasion skill into it myself.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:39 .

[mopotter]

StreetMagic wrote...

Seriously though, there should be less highlighted/colored aspects, and just a focus on the ideas/concepts behind choices (i.e. just have people think for themselves as far as moral alignment goes). Consequences should be situational.

This would be amazing.  

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't even bother with persuasion points now. If you plan on leveling characters to 60 in ME1, you'll get free points that fill up both bars, if you play it right. For a first playthrough though (1-50), I end up with a lot of neutral options and just end the game with like 4 bars in Charm/Intimidate each.

If you're relying on the free points, don't you end up blowing a lot of persuasion checks until the NG+ run?

[AlanC9]

How is it worth it to play the game twice for free persuade checks? I guess I can understand playing NG+ on the merits, but doing it just to save points?