261 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

spirosz wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The paragon/renegade system should be tossed entirely. So much needless messiness is created by the pressure to force every action into one of two interpretive schools of thought that often overlap.

Yeah I found my first playthrough, I was more concerned with getting more paragon points compared to choosing the dialogue that fit Shepard at the time, though that changed after quite a few playthroughs and later in next installments.  

It's hard not to let those +5 Renegade/Paragon notifications influence your dialogue/quest decisions.

Many times I found myself disregarding realism and roleplaying and picking a paragon option even though it was the renegade one I gravitated toward first -- just because I had learned that BioWare sees color (red or blue) before it sees reasoning. My arguments felt futile regardless of their validity; I was ultimately under the tyranny of the outcome. Paragon choices usually yielded outcomes I liked, renegade choices often yielded outcomes I didn't like.

[sr2josh]

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

[AlanC9]

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

What was "perfect" about tying dialogue outcomes to the meter? What do you like about this?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't view the Paragon/Renegade meter in ME2 as a morality meter, more of a character meter (for lack of a better word). In this game Shepard can only Charm/Intimidate people if he/she is a sufficiently charming or intimidating person.

[AlanC9]

So it's a learn-by-doing element? Some other RPGs do develop characters this way.

But every other ability in the game is controlled by spending points on it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 janvier 2014 - 06:55 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

Forcing me to roleplay along one track or the other or else fail to resolve loyalty confrontations? No thanks.

[sr2josh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

What was "perfect" about tying dialogue outcomes to the meter? What do you like about this?

Your choices throughout the game would actually matter depending on how much of a Paragon or Renegade you were.  For example, the argument between Miranda and Jack would be resolved according to how much of either morality you were.  In ME3, it didn't matter because everything was lumped into a single total of morality points and ME1 was just based on your character's leveling up.  ME2 was a good balance that actually affected your choices.

[BioWareM0d13]

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

I disagree.

The problem with ME2's system is that prior to DLC it forced players into extremes. Resolving conflicts between squadmates was based on the accumulated paragon or renegade points. The problem was that it didn't tally your total points, it just took into account the one that you had poured the most points into. This had the unintended result of making paragade or renegon playthroughs less viable. Forcing players to go full paragon or full renegade is a bad system, and that is why ME3 attempted to move away from that a bit by the reputation point system.

[sr2josh]

Han Shot First wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

I disagree.

The problem with ME2's system is that prior to DLC it forced players into extremes. Resolving conflicts between squadmates was based on the accumulated paragon or renegade points. The problem was that it didn't tally your total points, it just took into account the one that you had poured the most points into. This had the unintended result of making paragade or renegon playthroughs less viable. Forcing players to go full paragon or full renegade is a bad system, and that is why ME3 attempted to move away from that a bit by the reputation point system.  

I hated that about ME3.  It rendered Paragon/Renegade choices meaningless.

Modifié par Makai81, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:28 .

[BioWareM0d13]

Choices should have impact but it doesn't necessarily need to be tied to a morality system. The Witcher 2 is a great example of this. There isn't a morality system in the Witcher 2, yet there are some choices Geralt can make that result in entirely different branching storylines in different locales.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...
I hated that about ME3.  It rendered Paragon/Renegade choices meaningless.

Meaningless how? Do your choices still not have unique consequences? Isn't the dialogue you pick still reflective of your character? The only change the reputation system brought was that players were no longer locked out of persuasion options because they didn't choose the exact same type of dialogue response every time. In Me1/2, a player who didn't read a single line of the dialogue wheel and just up-righted or down-righted every wheel was given more freedom of choice than someone who had nuanced opinions that might not be reflected by stark moral opposites (if we characterize the P/R moralities as such which is debatable).

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 29 janvier 2014 - 09:54 .

[javeart]

I agree that the approval system of DA is probably the one that makes the most sense, though I'm not really opposed to the clasification of every single action as "good" or "bad". It's simplistic, no doubt, but any other way to build the type of answer you can choose would probably be. Is it better the diplomatic/sarcastic/agressive thing of DA2? Not for me (At least both paragon and renegade Shepard can make a joke now and then, and that's something I really appreciate). The paragon/renegade points thing, though... that's terrible. But going back to persuasion/intimidation abilities would be enough for me.

[Sundance31us]

No matter what BW game you’re playing there should be a notice popping up letting you know that Morrigan disapproves.

[AlanC9]

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
What was "perfect" about tying dialogue outcomes to the meter? What do you like about this?

Your choices throughout the game would actually matter depending on how much of a Paragon or Renegade you were.  For example, the argument between Miranda and Jack would be resolved according to how much of either morality you were.  

That was good? Why should Jack or Miranda care about Shepard's P/R total?

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 12:39 .

[AlanC9]

Yeah. My point was that the ME2 persuasion system is terrible.

[Usefull_idiot]

I don't like how they only have good or bad. They need to make the morality system a little more grey.

[Steelcan]

scrap it all entirely

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ditch the morality system and have persuasion tied to a skill or something.

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah. My point was that the ME2 persuasion system is terrible.

Agreed.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't see why you're singling out ME2 though. It's never changed.

Or if you can, refresh my memory. All they seem to amount to do is flavoring the dialogue on the persuade check. In every game.

ME2's persusaion system is terrible because it is tied to your morality bars.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 30 janvier 2014 - 02:06 .

[RatThing]

Steelcan wrote...

scrap it all entirely

+
I have my own moral code, I don't need to adopt someone else's.

[Lord Watson]

I've written and rewritten this several times now, so I'll just summarize my basic thoughts.

Bring back charm/intimidate skills
Like many others here I want the option of prioritizing social skills. We have skills that determine how proficient we are with a gun, the same should be true for the mouth.

Get away from making us grind our morality/fame.
P/R in ME2 in particular. I hate picking top or bottom for points instead of looking at the content of said dialogue. Tali's trial always comes to mind as a section that penalizes "gray" characters.

Separate morality, fame, and demeanor.
P/R represents your fame, demeanor, and your morality. That's just too much for one system. I think that's also the basis for the contradictions we've seen tied to it.

Modifié par Lord Watson, 30 janvier 2014 - 06:17 .