261 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Han Shot First wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

I disagree.

The problem with ME2's system is that prior to DLC it forced players into extremes. Resolving conflicts between squadmates was based on the accumulated paragon or renegade points. The problem was that it didn't tally your total points, it just took into account the one that you had poured the most points into. This had the unintended result of making paragade or renegon playthroughs less viable. Forcing players to go full paragon or full renegade is a bad system, and that is why ME3 attempted to move away from that a bit by the reputation point system.

Precisely this. Despite feeling meh about color-coated moral polarity in general, I appreciate how it was tweaked for ME3.

[Lord Watson]

I liked that it was tweaked in ME3, certainly an improvement over 2.

[Mr.House]

Makai81 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

The morality system in ME3 was rendered almost irrelevant whether you chose Paragon or Renegade.  The morality system in ME2 was perfect because it was based on your Paragon and Renegade choices throughout the game instead of a single meter that stacked your choices regardless of red/blue.  Please bring back the ME2 morality system!

I disagree.

The problem with ME2's system is that prior to DLC it forced players into extremes. Resolving conflicts between squadmates was based on the accumulated paragon or renegade points. The problem was that it didn't tally your total points, it just took into account the one that you had poured the most points into. This had the unintended result of making paragade or renegon playthroughs less viable. Forcing players to go full paragon or full renegade is a bad system, and that is why ME3 attempted to move away from that a bit by the reputation point system.  

I hated that about ME3.  It rendered Paragon/Renegade choices meaningless.

Ya because being forced to play one side is so much better. ME3 allowed you to be paragon, middle or Renegade. I don't seet he issue here, unless you think players should be forced to pick a extreme. Also it did not render paragon/renegade choices meaningless, at all, it simply allowed you to not be forced to pick one side or fear you might to be able to access some dialog because of a broken system ala ME2s.

[AlanC9]

While ME3 is a bunch better than ME2, one odd problem with using Reputation points is that, in effect, the dialogue checks become completeness checks. If you do enough sidequests you can't fail to persuade anyone in the game.

[Sc2mashimaro]

You know what would be cool - all dialogue available all the time. You can attempt to pursuade, joke, or intimidate any time the dialogue would be available and the more likely the character thinks he/she is to succeed, the brighter the color. It would be cool to be able to attempt to do that stuff at any time - even when you know it's going to backfire. Also, drinking alcohol would temporarily impair your ability to tell what is likely to work.

[DeinonSlayer]

What would be interesting is having persuasion options open all the time, but if you use them too frequently, you become notorious for having a silver tongue and certain genre-savvy people you come across are less willing to listen because they know you'll try to manipulate them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 janvier 2014 - 01:28 .

[Stakrin]

 I think the color scheme should go. And big choices should be placed side to side instead of up and down, or at least shake up the order. I don't think they should give things like they "good or bad". 

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

While ME3 is a bunch better than ME2, one odd problem with using Reputation points is that, in effect, the dialogue checks become completeness checks. If you do enough sidequests you can't fail to persuade anyone in the game.

True, but since it's called the Reputation system I'd say it's some nice gameplay/story synergy there.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think something more along the lines of a personal approval system with other characters and/or a factional system like FO:NV would be preferable. Paragon/Renegade embodies too many different contrasts that aren't always compatible: principled vs. expedient, unilateralist vs. cooperative, and even just polite vs. confrontational.

My favorite example of where it doesn't quite work is after the dreadnought mission in ME3. Favoring geth/quarian peace is generally treated as Paragon, and yet you get Paragon points for agreeing with Gerrel and Renegade points for yelling at him. My Paragon Sheps all got Renegade points there as a result even though they didn't punch him.

Rather than getting Paragon/Renegade points, the consequences for yelling at Gerrel could have been something like:

+2 Legion
+2 Koris
+1 Tali
+1 Raan
-2 Gerrel

Or:

+2 Geth
+1 Quarian moderates
-2 Quarian hawks

Then, to broker peace, you would need sufficient support from a majority of the crucial individuals or factions. For that matter, that's sort of how the game works already, in that past decisions as much of a Paragon or Renegade points (where you just need an overall high reputation score, IIRC).

Modifié par FlyingSquirrel, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:04 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

You know what would be cool - all dialogue available all the time. You can attempt to pursuade, joke, or intimidate any time the dialogue would be available and the more likely the character thinks he/she is to succeed, the brighter the color. It would be cool to be able to attempt to do that stuff at any time - even when you know it's going to backfire.

I agree with that, or at the very least let you fill up your persuasion bar(s) with as many points as you can earn. Plus, it's important that they continue with percentage of available points to date as the "gatekeeper" for whether something unlocks or not. One thing that was annoying in ME1 was that a few specific dialogue scenes required a very high number of Charm or Intimidate points even if you weren't that far along overall. Ethan Jeong, for example, is apparently 3-4 times harder to talk down than the two custodians who pull a gun in Chora's Den. But why, really? From what little we saw, he didn't strike me as especially braver or dumber (depending on how you look at it) than your average toady-working-for-a-shady-organization.

[AlanC9]

Oh, yeah, ME3 works well on its own terms. But it puts me in an odd position because sometimes I like to play relatively-inarticulate characters in RPGs -- people who don't take coercion in DA:O or dialogue skills in D&D, for example. The only way to do this in ME3 is to deliberately handicap yourself during gameplay, either by avoiding sidequests and so keeping the Rep score low, or by not using the options even when they're available. It was easy in ME1 since you just didn't throw points into the skills. ME2 the difficulty of playing this depended on how you were playing Shep, but you could manipulate it a bit by when you developed the class power.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:00 .

[Khavos]

I'm fine with it staying in, but only if they rename it from "Paragon/Renegade" to "Naive Idealist Protected By Plot Armor/Realist Or Unbelievable Jerk Depending On Which Installment We're In."

[AlanC9]

Khavos wrote...

I'm fine with it staying in, but only if they rename it from "Paragon/Renegade" to "Naive Idealist Protected By Plot Armor/Realist Or Unbelievable Jerk Depending On Which Installment We're In."

LOL. (Yes, literally)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

If I remember correctly, wasn't Ethan Jong more difficult to persuade (note, persuade NOT intemidate) than Saren during the endgame lol?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

If I remember correctly, wasn't Ethan Jong more difficult to persuade (note, persuade NOT intemidate) than Saren during the endgame lol?

I believe so. It's similar to getting the Spectre line in ME2. At least the Renegade option on Jeong is. If I'm not mistaken, you need nearly a full bar of intimidate to unlock the "Spectre" option on him.

Fairly certain that the intimidate option on the Feros guy is far easier to unlock than the persuade option. Think you only need 5-6 intimidate points while you need around 11 in persuade.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

If I remember correctly, wasn't Ethan Jong more difficult to persuade (note, persuade NOT intemidate) than Saren during the endgame lol?

I believe so. It's similar to getting the Spectre line in ME2. At least the Renegade option on Jeong is. If I'm not mistaken, you need nearly a full bar of intimidate to unlock the "Spectre" option on him.

Fairly certain that the intimidate option on the Feros guy is far easier to unlock than the persuade option. Think you only need 5-6 intimidate points while you need around 11 in persuade.

Maybe you're right. I'm not totally sure.. haven't played in awhile. Just seems like I remember it being a pain in the ass to scare him with your Spectre status.

Nope fairly certain it is quite easy.

"edit"

Any chance that you are thinking of the crime lord during Thane's LM instead?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 30 janvier 2014 - 07:13 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

If I remember correctly, wasn't Ethan Jong more difficult to persuade (note, persuade NOT intemidate) than Saren during the endgame lol?

I believe so. It's similar to getting the Spectre line in ME2. At least the Renegade option on Jeong is. If I'm not mistaken, you need nearly a full bar of intimidate to unlock the "Spectre" option on him.

Good thing Jeong wasn't indoctrinated too or he'd probably have tried to hijack the Normandy with a water gun while he was at it.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

If I remember correctly, wasn't Ethan Jong more difficult to persuade (note, persuade NOT intemidate) than Saren during the endgame lol?

I believe so. It's similar to getting the Spectre line in ME2. At least the Renegade option on Jeong is. If I'm not mistaken, you need nearly a full bar of intimidate to unlock the "Spectre" option on him.

Fairly certain that the intimidate option on the Feros guy is far easier to unlock than the persuade option. Think you only need 5-6 intimidate points while you need around 11 in persuade.

Maybe you're right. I'm not totally sure.. haven't played in awhile. Just seems like I remember it being a pain in the ass to scare him with your Spectre status.

Nope fairly certain it is quite easy.

"edit"

Any chance that you are thinking of the crime lord during Thane's LM instead?

No, I remember Thane's being a seperate pain in the ass. Heh.

I looked up the guide on the wiki. It says this:

Speak with Jeong

Guess you are right then, I just recall it being much lower than 10.

[sr2josh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah. My point was that the ME2 persuasion system is terrible.

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

[AlanC9]

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah. My point was that the ME2 persuasion system is terrible.

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Sounds to me like people who always vote Democrat or Republican without actually knowing anything about the candidates.