261 réponses à ce sujet

[sr2josh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah. My point was that the ME2 persuasion system is terrible.

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

It only became a problem by ME3 apparently.  

[sr2josh]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Sounds to me like people who always vote Democrat or Republican without actually knowing anything about the candidates.

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

[Red Panda]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

It actually matched the mentality of ME2's morality system though.

[sr2josh]

OperatingWookie wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

It actually matched the mentality of ME2's morality system though.

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

[Red Panda]

Makai81 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

It actually matched the mentality of ME2's morality system though.

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

Not that way!

Dodge the politics, man, not good.

I mean in terms of people just choosing one straight side.

[sr2josh]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

It actually matched the mentality of ME2's morality system though.

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

Not that way!

Dodge the politics, man, not good.

I mean in terms of people just choosing one straight side.

I don't feel that when I was choosing either paragon or renegade paths in ME2 that I wasn't aware of what my choices meant or represented.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

Uh, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that it's bad game design to force players into a type of decision, because suddenly whether it's blue or red is more important than what's actually happening. Morality becomes gamified.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 31 janvier 2014 - 02:59 .

[Red Panda]

Makai81 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Terrific argument.  Stellar analogy.

Thank you.

It actually matched the mentality of ME2's morality system though.

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

Not that way!

Dodge the politics, man, not good.

I mean in terms of people just choosing one straight side.

I don't feel that when I was choosing either paragon or renegade paths in ME2 that I wasn't aware of what my choices meant or represented.

I did. I needed to get every dialogue option and who cared how the dialogue flowed to get to it.

[sr2josh]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

No it doesn't.  There is no correlation between liberalism/conservatism and paragon/renegade choices in a video game.

Uh, that wasn't my point at all. My point was that it's bad game design to force players into a type of decision, because suddenly whether it's blue or red is more important than what's actually happening. Morality becomes gamified.

You're not forced to do anything.  In all of my ME2 playthroughs, I was able to accumulate enough paragon or renegade totals to choose most either throughout the game.  However, if you're lazy then yeah you're "forced".

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...

You're not forced to do anything.  In all of my ME2 playthroughs, I was able to accumulate enough paragon or renegade totals to choose most either throughout the game.  However, if you're lazy then yeah you're "forced".

Yes well, you also aren't forced to complete the Suicide Mission without any deaths, but we know almost everyone does, because they want to get the best outcome. This goes for persuasion options as well, and to get all of them you either need to do things like Miranda/Jack and Zaeed SUPER early or you need to almost exclusively pick P or R the whole game. Decision-based games should always encourage you to weigh the pros and cons of each situation, not make decisions based on a meta-meter that nobody in the ME universe can see.

[AlanC9]

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote..

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

It only became a problem by ME3 apparently.  

That's silly. ME3 made the problem better. ME1 didn't have the problem. Only ME2 failed.

[sr2josh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote..

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

It only became a problem by ME3 apparently.  

That's silly. ME3 made the problem better. ME1 didn't have the problem. Only ME2 failed.

Yes, ME3's system was silly.  Just one of the many contreversies that hurt the game.  ME2 on the other hand got it right.

[wolfhowwl]

There was controversy over the player no longer having to go pure Paragon or Renegade to have a hope of passing persuasion checks?

[grey_wind]

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote..

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

It only became a problem by ME3 apparently.  

That's silly. ME3 made the problem better. ME1 didn't have the problem. Only ME2 failed.

I'd argue ME1 had the problem too, just not as bad as ME2. To unlock more Charm or Intimidate options, you still have to heavily favour one of the two alignments. It's really hard to unlock that annoying alignment based quest if you're playing a neutral character too, unless you're importing.

[sr2josh]

J. Reezy wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

There was controversy over the player no longer having to go pure Paragon or Renegade to have a hope of passing persuasion checks?

Lol right? I didn't know ME3's (imo) better system was controversial

Better as in it made it easier for past choices to not matter.  Come on kid pay attention.

[sr2josh]

dreamgazer wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote..

No it isn't.  It actually motivated you to take a paragon or renegade path but in ME3 it doesn't matter what your past Renegade/Paragon choices were.  ME2 got it right and ME3 failed miserably.  Even ME1 had a better morality system.

Motivating me to take a Paragon or Renegade path is the problem.

It only became a problem by ME3 apparently.  

That's silly. ME3 made the problem better. ME1 didn't have the problem. Only ME2 failed.

Yes, ME3's system was silly.  Just one of the many contreversies that hurt the game.  ME2 on the other hand got it right.

Definitely an improvement in ME3.

I agree with your Disney gif.  It was not an improvement and one of the biggest failures of the game.

[sr2josh]

J. Reezy wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

There was controversy over the player no longer having to go pure Paragon or Renegade to have a hope of passing persuasion checks?

Lol right? I didn't know ME3's (imo) better system was controversial

Better as in it made it easier for past choices to not matter.  Come on kid pay attention.

Troll?

Great argument on the topic of this thread.  Reported.

[AlanC9]

grey_wind wrote...

I'd argue ME1 had the problem too, just not as bad as ME2. To unlock more Charm or Intimidate options, you still have to heavily favour one of the two alignments. It's really hard to unlock that annoying alignment based quest if you're playing a neutral character too, unless you're importing.

I agree in theory. In practice, if I'm throwing points into Charm I'm naturally going to use it, and using it gets enough points to keep using it. ME1's close enough for me.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:14 .

[wolfhowwl]

Makai81 wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

There was controversy over the player no longer having to go pure Paragon or Renegade to have a hope of passing persuasion checks?

Lol right? I didn't know ME3's (imo) better system was controversial

Better as in it made it easier for past choices to not matter.  Come on kid pay attention.

No one was hoping to see their choices "matter" by having all their red/blue points summed up to meet some arbitrary persuasion check which is why no one cared when the morality system was changed.

People felt that the past choices (such as destroying or preserving the Collector base) did not matter because they failed to result in what they saw as logical or tangible effects to the story.

Keeping the old morality system would not affect the script nor would it change what people wanted to see from their choices.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:53 .

[AlanC9]

wolfhowwl wrote...

No one was hoping to see their choices "matter" by having all their red/blue points summed up to meet some arbitrary persuasion check which is why no one cared when the morality system was changed.

Well, maybe one person was.

I'm still waiting to see a reason why ME2's approach was a good idea.

[Lady Abstract]

I hated Me2's morality system. I played almost full renegade and with legions loyalty mission that i did right before the IFF activates;  i chose the paragon choice and it made me not have enough points to resolve the quarrel between Legion and Tali. My renegade bar was almost 100% full like maybe 98%. I  had to do the mission over to  pick the renegade choice so i can settle the beef between Tali and Legion.  It kind of forces you to make decisions instead of you making your own. I kind hope me4's morality system is like Me1 where dialogue options are something you can upgrade and the paragon/renegade meter is just what you choose it to be. I dont want to have to feel like i have to pick a renegade or paragon option just to have enough points for certain dialogue.

They should keep the red eye look renegade and they should add different squad mate reactions to you depending on if you are mostly renegade/paragon. Like If youre renegade the squadmates, depending on thier personality, will seem more intimidated by you or if they themselves have a renegade-like personality they will seem to favor you more and the same with paragon, if you are paragon people will look up to you and those squadmates with renegade-like mindsets will think you are too soft.

Modifié par QU33N_ANG3L, 31 janvier 2014 - 07:44 .

[Khavos]

Actually, I'll say that the whole, "by the way, your cybernetics will glow red if you're naughty!" thing is something I very much hope they never bring back. To the best of my knowledge, the Sith don't exist in ME's universe, so their aesthetic shouldn't, either.