261 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

Makai81 wrote...
It's only "awful" in your world.  For most gamers and critics alike the system in ME2 was better and I also explained in earlier posts why it was better.  Scroll back to my earlier posts and actually read them.

That's fine that you think it's better, but most of us don't.  Leave it at that, you aren't going to be convinced otherwise. 

[sr2josh]

AlanC9 wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

It's only "awful" in your world.  For most gamers and critics alike the system in ME2 was better and I also explained in earlier posts why it was better.  Scroll back to my earlier posts and actually read them.

Oh, I read them. They just don't make much sense.

Why is is a good thing that the game cares how Paragon or Renegade Shepard is? What's actually good about "motivating you to take a Paragon or Renegade path"? You just assume this is a good thing but you can't, or won't, expain what's good about it.

Edit: unless you're just saying that this is your personal choice in RPGs, and you simply like letting the P/R meter tell you what to do. De gustibus, right?

They don't make sense because I'm not in 100% agreement with your OPINION.  Trying to help you understand any point is futile.  

[sr2josh]

spirosz wrote...

Makai81 wrote...
It's only "awful" in your world.  For most gamers and critics alike the system in ME2 was better and I also explained in earlier posts why it was better.  Scroll back to my earlier posts and actually read them.

That's fine that you think it's better, but most of us don't.  Leave it at that, you aren't going to be convinced otherwise. 

Claiming "most of us" think it's better isn't a fact.  It's just your opinion.

[sr2josh]

J. Reezy wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...
It's only "awful" in your world.  For most gamers and critics alike the system in ME2 was better and I also explained in earlier posts why it was better.  Scroll back to my earlier posts and actually read them.

Sources, please.

You won't see any.

Read earlier posts in this thread.  Not that hard to figure out.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...

Claiming "most of us" think it's better isn't a fact.  It's just your opinion.

Notice the wealth of people rushing to support your side? Me neither.

Some opinions are better than others, being based on actual evidence, like the thread I listed. You need support for your claim that most fans and critics like ME2's morality system better.

[sr2josh]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Claiming "most of us" think it's better isn't a fact.  It's just your opinion.

Notice the wealth of people rushing to support your side? Me neither.

Some opinions are better than others, being based on actual evidence, like the thread I listed. You need support for your claim that most fans and critics like ME2's morality system better.

A handful of your friends coming to your side is proof of nothing as well.  Oh here's your source:  AlanC9

Modifié par Makai81, 31 janvier 2014 - 10:04 .

[AlanC9]

Makai81 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Why is is a good thing that the game cares how Paragon or Renegade Shepard is? What's actually good about "motivating you to take a Paragon or Renegade path"? You just assume this is a good thing but you can't, or won't, expain what's good about it.

Edit: unless you're just saying that this is your personal choice in RPGs, and you simply like letting the P/R meter tell you what to do. De gustibus, right?

They don't make sense because I'm not in 100% agreement with your OPINION.  Trying to help you understand any point is futile.  

So you really can't say why having the P/R meter tell your character what to do is a good thing? You just like to be told what to do?

edited: removed inflammatory content ~Mod05

Edit: actually, I don't understand your position enough to know if you don't like having the system tell your characters what to do. It's just that I've never run into anyone else who thinks that what ME really needs is more railroading.

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 01 février 2014 - 07:02 .

[spirosz]

Makai81 wrote...
It's just your opinion.

You don't say? 

As is yours, Makavilian. 

[dreamgazer]

Makai81 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

Claiming "most of us" think it's better isn't a fact.  It's just your opinion.

Notice the wealth of people rushing to support your side? Me neither.

Some opinions are better than others, being based on actual evidence, like the thread I listed. You need support for your claim that most fans and critics like ME2's morality system better.

A handful of your friends coming to your side is proof of nothing as well.  Oh here's your source:  AlanC9

User blog? Nice!  Here's a source for you, too: Bioware Finally Gets the Morality Meter Right in 'Mass Effect 3'

And here's an article talking about the negatives of the P+R alignment structure (stuff improved in ME3), citing problems in ME2. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 31 janvier 2014 - 10:53 .

[spirosz]

As much as I like ME2 better than the rest of the trilogy, it's really hilarious to try to defend a system that forces you to take one side over the other, no one is that one dimensional, except maybe Liara Makavilian.

Modifié par spirosz, 31 janvier 2014 - 10:55 .

[AlanC9]

dreamgazer wrote...

Makai81 wrote...

A handful of your friends coming to your side is proof of nothing as well.  Oh here's your source:  AlanC9

User blog? Nice!  Here's a source for you, too: Bioware Finally Gets the Morality Meter Right in 'Mass Effect 3'

Give the man points. I asked for one other player who felt the way he did. He found one.

[Mcfly616]

Idk....it needs something. I mean, lets not give BW any reason to completely axe something and leave a gaping hole, instead of adding something better. (RIP Mako + Harbinger)

Do I like the P/R system? Not necessarily. I don't necessarily hate it either. There should be some way the game takes account of and reacts to your actions and what type of person you are. Maybe take a note from Fable and have NPC's revere you or fear you based on your actions. Idk....I think the game would feel like it was missing something if it didn't have some type of morality system (revamped or completely new)


I didn't necessarily love ME1's overflowing inventory, imperfect powers system, the Mako's drunkenness, or it's clunky combat. But I was certainly appalled by ME2 and the complete removal of the inventory and loot, the butchering of the powers system, and just utter linearity and monotony of combat and vehicle segments.

Something is better than nothing. We should be coming up with new and better ways to implement a morality system within the game instead of just saying "yeah, lets completely do away with it". Go that route and you will be one step closer to what you all fear most: "Gears Effect"

[AlanC9]

How do you feel about Dragon Age?

Morality meters are one of those odd CRPG traditions that mostly died out in PnP decades ago. D&D excepted, but removing alignment was a live topic in D&D circles as far back as 1982 or so. I didn't miss them in PnP, and wouldn't miss them if CRPGs gave up on them too.

Edit: morality meters and reputation meters aren't the same thing. Reputation meters can be useful in some circumstances.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2014 - 11:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

How do you feel about Dragon Age?

Morality meters are one of those odd CRPG traditions that mostly died out in PnP decades ago. D&D excepted, but removing alignment was a live topic in D&D circles as far back as 1982 or so. I didn't miss them in PnP, and wouldn't miss them if CRPGs gave up on them too.

Dragon Age does it better, and it'd be even better if the meter was hidden to prevent gaming the system (something the implementation of gifts did as well), but it stills runs into issues such as arbitrary cut-off points for triggering "friend" or "rival" status, romance content lock-outs, etc.

I think the ideal would be to base a characters' general attitude towards you on the several big decisions you are asked to do in a game. While this will lead to a bit of dissonance if you continually do sidequests in a particular way and experience zero reactivity, it will at least make a certain amount of sense that noticeable changes in attitude occur based on significant decisions.

[CronoDragoon]

Makai81 wrote...
A handful of your friends coming to your side is proof of nothing as well.  Oh here's your source:  AlanC9

So long as we're making conspiratorial accusations, that user blog is clearly yours.

/s

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 31 janvier 2014 - 11:20 .

[spirosz]

I prefer the idea of whatever my PC does, people need to react a certain way based off their beliefs and a player shouldn't lose a chance to influence certain moments, like in ME2 with Jack and Miranda, based off only choosing one of the two extremes. If you develop a persuasive PC, you should be able to have that charisma shown in game. I like being able to be Paragade, probably my favourite way to play the series.

[spirosz]

J. Reezy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Edit: actually, I don't understand your position enough to know if you don't like having the system tell your characters what to do. It's just that I've never run into anyone else who thinks that what ME really needs is more railroading.

I'm assuming that Makai dude REALLY likes Mass Effect 2 so he doesn't care to take into account any problems/criticisms the morality sytem might bring forth. He seems to have this habit of speaking as if his subjective views are fact from what little I've seen. It comes across as, "The morality system in Mass Effect 3 is worse" instead of "I think the morality system in Mass Effect 3 is worse". A small but important difference.

Basically.  I probaby like it more than him, but I'm not oblivious. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think me3 is better, but the differences are negligible. I don't see why one would get hung up on over the other. There isn't that much content that is locked in ME2 if you don't "go full Renegade or Paragon". Same with ME1, and high intimidate/charm checks. Off the top of my head, ME2 has the "I'm a Spectre" intimidation line, recruiting Morinth, and talking to Vasir while she's holding the hostage. Most other instances can be avoided. Miranda and Jack's persuasion checks are pretty easy to get, as well as Legion/Tali. It's not like there's a lot of content tied into the morality system.

edit: If I'm missing something, feel free to inform me. I just don't see the big deal. I have more problems with the whole notion of morality in general (not morals per se. Just the binary nature of P/R).

I've never missed an important persuassion check, even on NG+ where Shepard doesn't get the ME1 bonuses; and I usually use the neutral options in conversations, although I think those only consist of like 4% of the total points in the game.

[AlanC9]

I've missed the Jack/Miranda check, which I think is the only hard one that can be fairly described as important.

[ImaginaryMatter]

AlanC9 wrote...

I've missed the Jack/Miranda check, which I think is the only hard one that can be fairly described as important.

I consider the hard ones to be the Miranda/Jack one, Tali/Legion, Zaeed's LM if you safe the refinery workers, um... I think's that's it. Actually, now that I think about it I usually spec in the +100% paragon/renegade bonus talents so that might be it.

[Mcfly616]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I've missed the Jack/Miranda check, which I think is the only hard one that can be fairly described as important.

I consider the hard ones to be the Miranda/Jack one, Tali/Legion, Zaeed's LM if you safe the refinery workers, um... I think's that's it. Actually, now that I think about it I usually spec in the +100% paragon/renegade bonus talents so that might be it.

You can take Tali's side during the confrontation. Then go back to Legion and tell it that you were lying to Tali. Loyalty preserved.

[Dextro Milk]

Trash the system.

[2Pac]

^ Oh Hell no, The morality system makes mass effect fun especially the choices you make.

[AlanC9]

alliance commander wrote...

^ Oh Hell no, The morality system makes mass effect fun especially the choices you make.

What do choices have to do with having a morality system?

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 février 2014 - 02:52 .