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What should happen to the morality system in future Mass Effect games?


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#201
Barquiel

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Lizardviking wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I just hope it doesn't force me to metagame decisions to unlock dialogue choices later on...the morality system in ME3 was OK in my opinion. ME2 and DA2 were not so good.


DA2? I thought the friendship/rivalry system was one of the few things DA2 did right.


I meant Hawke's personalities, the friendship/rivalry system was nice. My Hawke had the diplomatic personality, but she was very anti-Qunari. The problem...only rude Hawkes can side with Petrice, that didn't make much sense imo (but I am not sure if there were other decisions like that).

Modifié par Barquiel, 01 février 2014 - 07:24 .


#202
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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Barquiel wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I just hope it doesn't force me to metagame decisions to unlock dialogue choices later on...the morality system in ME3 was OK in my opinion. ME2 and DA2 were not so good.


DA2? I thought the friendship/rivalry system was one of the few things DA2 did right.


I meant Hawke's personalities, the friendship/rivalry system was nice. My Hawke had the diplomatic personality, but she was very anti-Qunari. The problem...only rude Hawkes can side with Petrice, that didn't make much sense imo (but I am not sure if there were other decisions like that).


Ah, I can see why that might be problematic.

#203
AlanC9

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StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Anyone who was on these boards when KotOR came out should remember the time Bio actually did this. KotOR dialogues usually went LS--neutral--DS, but in a big confrontation in the endgame the DS choice -- which irrevocably puts the PC on the Dark Side -- was the first choice. A lot of idiots accidentally fell to the Dark Side. I don't think it was a high percentage, though.


Hmm, I don't remember much about it. Still have Kotor sitting around. I was going to revisit it soon.


Well, I don't suppose it's a spoiler to mention that the line in question is something like "Yes! Together we can control the galaxy!" Nobody's going to read that line and mistake it for LS.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 février 2014 - 07:34 .


#204
Ryuzetsu

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I don't care how the morality system works as long as it makes sense. ( ie. head butting Krogan in ME2 gets renegade points, when that is in line with the warrior nature of their culture...lame) But the one thing I do want to lose is the glowing red eyes. When people in real life are pricks their eyes don't go red.

#205
javeart

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 Why is people picking compulsively the paragon option a problem that need fixing? why would anyone care about how does anyone else make decisions? does it affect me and I haven't realized? :blink:

Modifié par javeart, 02 février 2014 - 08:41 .


#206
dreamgazer

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javeart wrote...

 Why is people picking compulsively the paragon option a problem that need fixing?


Nothing, if you're alright with the game thinking and role-playing for you.

#207
GraphicOps

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I think they should not make Renegade seem like the bad option and paragon the good option. The options should reflect the character's culture and perspective and the society in the game.

#208
javeart

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dreamgazer wrote...

javeart wrote...

 Why is people picking compulsively the paragon option a problem that need fixing?


Nothing, if you're alright with the game thinking and role-playing for you.


but it doesn't do it for me, it does it for whoever that wants it that way, and doesn't affect me at all

#209
AlanC9

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The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.

#210
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AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.


Exactly this. The times that paragon options result in anything other than a positive outcome are few and far between. Because paragon choices so consistently result in positive consequences, the player is effectively no longer choosing their intention, they are knowingly choosing the type of outcome they want. 

Personally, I think this is (one of the reasons) why people took the ending so hard. People had been trained and conditioned all trilogy long that they just had to press a blue button to get a happy ending, and then there was no blue button for them to push.

#211
SwobyJ

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Paragon is about Shepard healing while making efforts to understand others.

It's exactly what it needs to be. And it has its dark side.

#212
AlanC9

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That's not what the manual says Paragon is.

And if that was a correct description, then Renegade options really would be wrong. Unless you've got an equally noncanon description of Renegade that makes such options theoritically acceptable? "Theoretically" because in practice most Renegade options are mistakes. (Though Renegade interrupts often are not.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 février 2014 - 08:53 .


#213
shodiswe

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dreamgazer wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Renegade = monstrous appearance always struck me as something that should have stayed in KotOR. Not sure it even made sense there, though.


Right. Why wouldn't a Sole Survivor Paragon have scars, for example? It's pretty cartoony to tie it to Renegade-ness.


You can largely blame that on the popularity of Fable, I believe.

Image IPB


I've had fun in the Fable games but growing horns or getting an aura wasn't something I valued.
Hopefully that isn't sometihng that will happen automaticaly in other games unless you choose to maim and damage yourself.

As for starwars, Palpatines look as a result of battle damage was understandable.

It doesn't bother me that much but it doesn't anything of value to have those extras. It might seem slightly immersion breakign but I'm faily good at turning a blind eye as long as it isn't the story or gameplay.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 février 2014 - 09:13 .


#214
shodiswe

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GraphicOps wrote...

I think they should not make Renegade seem like the bad option and paragon the good option. The options should reflect the character's culture and perspective and the society in the game.



Being Renegade is more like playing a bully or wanting revenge, often just for the sake of amusement since they would help you anyway or answer your questions.

Most of my choices are Paragon in my main playthroughs, there are a few situations where I enjoy the Renegade interrupts. the one involving Gerrel after the Geth dreadnaught is one of my favrite Renegade interrupts.

I tried to not do that interrupt once but I immediately feelt it was wrong and reloaded an earlier save and corrected it. It has become obligatory in all my playthroughs..

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 février 2014 - 09:20 .


#215
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AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.



#216
Mcfly616

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Hmm a lot of hate for renegade options....weird. I tend to be a paragon myself, but the notion that the "good guy" options are any better is certainly debatable. I mean, half the renegade options in the game, I tend to view as being as sort of rebellious rather than being the "evil" choice. When it comes to "big" choices, I tend to find renegade options being more logical more often than not. 


Obviously some are very extreme and evil. But for the most part I find renegade playthroughs sort of like a Han Solo type experience.


Paragons can come off as cheesy and cartoonish. And lets be honest, being a shining knight/golden boy isn't going to save the day 9 times outta 10. And there's usually complaints when it doesn't. Going too far to either side of the P/R spectrum ruins my suspension of disbelief, breaks my immersion...

I'm all for the moral gray area...

Modifié par Mcfly616, 03 février 2014 - 03:58 .


#217
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I tend to pick Renegade instinctively now.. but that's after being familiar with the games for awhile. I don't like the empathy levels of Paragon. The general "nice" personality, I mean. I think real people like that are either full of crap or like those weirdos on Mormon commercials. The last thing I think about with sci-fi or the openness of space is going around acting like a saint. Ugh.

Often I still like the underlying Paragon choices though. I still want to Destroy the base, still want to knock Zaeed out, still want to tell Cerberus they suck, still want to save hostages and such. There are only a few cases when I like being "nice". In romance content. And funnily, when consoling Al-Jilani in ME3.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 03 février 2014 - 04:06 .


#218
Mcfly616

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Idk....nowadays (especially in ME1 and ME2) I really just say "screw P/R", the middle option is more realistic. A lot of times the paragon and renegade options go too far to their respective sides of the spectrum. The middle option just keeps it real.

#219
javeart

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AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.


What do you mean with always right? No bad consequences? Well, I could agree, but it's not like renegade options have a lot of bad consequences, either. But, yes, I'd like it if we had to face more negative outcomes from our decisions. I don't think these negative otucomes should be exclsuive to paragons, tough. I understand the renegade logic, that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and all, but a renegade path should have its own downsides... for instance, a renegade shepard should make a lot of enemies and find herself often in a very bad position to get help and things like that

#220
Dean_the_Young

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javeart wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.


What do you mean with always right? No bad consequences? Well, I could agree, but it's not like renegade options have a lot of bad consequences, either. But, yes, I'd like it if we had to face more negative outcomes from our decisions. I don't think these negative otucomes should be exclsuive to paragons, tough. I understand the renegade logic, that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and all, but a renegade path should have its own downsides... for instance, a renegade shepard should make a lot of enemies and find herself often in a very bad position to get help and things like that

I'm not Alan, but I believe I remember his general position on this. It comes down to the self-justifications for Paragonism and Renegade ideology. Paragon is about doing things the right way, even if it doesn't work out, while Renegade is about doing whatever's necessary, carrying the costs, to succeed. So long as Paragon occassionally fails and Renegade is necessary for success, that sort of morality system works.

But if Paragon, ie the morally 'right' way, never fails, then the Renegade counterpart is undermined. There's no point for accepting morally inferior actions and excessive costs in the name of necessity if those actions are not, in fact, necessary. An ideology based on extreme pragmatism makes no sense if the superior outcomes (ie, the pragmatically superior) all belong to the opposing ideology.

#221
AlanC9

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That's exactly right. Thanks.

#222
javeart

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

javeart wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.


What do you mean with always right? No bad consequences? Well, I could agree, but it's not like renegade options have a lot of bad consequences, either. But, yes, I'd like it if we had to face more negative outcomes from our decisions. I don't think these negative otucomes should be exclsuive to paragons, tough. I understand the renegade logic, that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and all, but a renegade path should have its own downsides... for instance, a renegade shepard should make a lot of enemies and find herself often in a very bad position to get help and things like that

I'm not Alan, but I believe I remember his general position on this. It comes down to the self-justifications for Paragonism and Renegade ideology. Paragon is about doing things the right way, even if it doesn't work out, while Renegade is about doing whatever's necessary, carrying the costs, to succeed. So long as Paragon occassionally fails and Renegade is necessary for success, that sort of morality system works.

But if Paragon, ie the morally 'right' way, never fails, then the Renegade counterpart is undermined. There's no point for accepting morally inferior actions and excessive costs in the name of necessity if those actions are not, in fact, necessary. An ideology based on extreme pragmatism makes no sense if the superior outcomes (ie, the pragmatically superior) all belong to the opposing ideology.

I think I understand that, but what I meant is that the problem is not only the lack of downsides for paragons choices, is the lack of downsides for any choice, because, where are the costs that a renegade Shepard is suppossed to assume? what sacrifices does she make? 

In fact, I don't think renegade options are usually really about making a hard choice in the name of necessity, but more about making fun of someone, or being agressive to someone, or skipping trial and just killing the bad guy, and things like that... And still, whatever she does, renegade shepard faces no more troubles than paragon shepard does....

I think both parts of the morality system fail: the fact that always everything works out for paragon shepard, and the fact that renegade shepard never makes big sacrifices, never makes enemies, never gets into trouble for taking the law into her own hands... why is one thing more realistic than the other? or why does one have a worse impact than the other in the game?

#223
KaiserShep

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dreamgazer wrote...

Ditch the morality system, incorporate Dragon Age's approval system.


I agree with this. The approval and friendship/rivalry system of Dragon Age made the choices more interesting, and I enjoyed the risk of betrayal that came with it. In Mass Effect, you could be a total bastard but no one seems to mind much, despite their varying personalities. It makes Shepard's morality exist in a kind of vacuum that's free from scrutiny, which has the unfortunate effect of making the companions feel a bit hollow by comparison. I like when characters outright object to your decisions, and could even potentially turn on you if the decision is severe enough or offends a specific companion deeply. Heck I would love to gain Kaidan's disapproval for punching out Manuel in ME1, or getting Garrus to resent Shepard for letting Tali die on Rannoch if you chose the geth over the quarians.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 12:04 .


#224
MassivelyEffective0730

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

javeart wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The problem isn't with people always picking the Paragon option. The problem is that the Paragon option is almost always right.


What do you mean with always right? No bad consequences? Well, I could agree, but it's not like renegade options have a lot of bad consequences, either. But, yes, I'd like it if we had to face more negative outcomes from our decisions. I don't think these negative otucomes should be exclsuive to paragons, tough. I understand the renegade logic, that sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and all, but a renegade path should have its own downsides... for instance, a renegade shepard should make a lot of enemies and find herself often in a very bad position to get help and things like that

I'm not Alan, but I believe I remember his general position on this. It comes down to the self-justifications for Paragonism and Renegade ideology. Paragon is about doing things the right way, even if it doesn't work out, while Renegade is about doing whatever's necessary, carrying the costs, to succeed. So long as Paragon occassionally fails and Renegade is necessary for success, that sort of morality system works.

But if Paragon, ie the morally 'right' way, never fails, then the Renegade counterpart is undermined. There's no point for accepting morally inferior actions and excessive costs in the name of necessity if those actions are not, in fact, necessary. An ideology based on extreme pragmatism makes no sense if the superior outcomes (ie, the pragmatically superior) all belong to the opposing ideology.


There is a lot of this in what I believe it is. I'm fine with taking paragon options, but I'm not fine with how most of them are presented (and concluded).

I choose the options because they are indeed the pragmatically superior options as you say, rather than the renegade option, which while still practical, is virtually undermined by the story since the game takes on a decidedly "morally right" stance with paragon. And it's very irritating. 

I think a truly practical person would disregard the paragon or renegade ideal and take whichever option is more pragmatic and more appropriate for achieving ones goal, not just for the sake or spirit of either ideology (which pretty much blend together exactly, and are really only different in terms of presentation, color, name, and a notional ideology).

In my decision making process, I'm really not one to regard morality or ethics as a part of why I choose a course of action. If it's in my best interest and the interest of my goal to be diplomatic and compassionate, I'll do it. Likewise, if I have to commit genocide, I'm more than willing to do that as well. Necessity knows no law. Comes with being unfettered.

#225
MassivelyEffective0730

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Also, this article sums up a lot of problems with the morality system in games period.

And if David were here, he'd see something that would enrage his little heart on the last page.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 05 février 2014 - 01:06 .