67 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Yes; the eternal mystery of not recording on her omni tool.
"Ah yes, 'reapers'".
Shep plays recording.
"Oh bugger, reapers".

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think their skepticism is very understandable in ME3. The Crucible is a terrible idea, at first glance.

But by that point, I got to do my routine. Hang up on them, calling them idiots. Just to keep up appearances.

For all they know the Crucible could have been a giant margarita maker, capable of creating unquantifiable volumes of delicious alcoholic beverage.

[Wulfram]

Obadiah wrote...

But, I don't think we asked them to invade Earth did we? We asked them to assist Hackett in the Crucible plan and work together with what was left of the Alliance guerilla fighting the Reapers in positions where they were weaker, not on Earth but in other systems.

Shepard's petition was something like, "send asssistance to/for Earth. We have plan - Crucible." Then as he got allies, it was all for Crucible assault.

Really, I don't think it's very clear what is being asked for.  It's mostly Udina's fault for muddling things, but Shepard doesn't do much to fix it.

Shepard should have framed things in terms of the Crucible being the only way to save the galaxy, and kept the focus off Earth, except as an example of what'll happen to Thessia and Sur'Kesh if you don't help.

[Melbella]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The biggest problem is the asari. Whenever they hit a problem they just wait around until some other race comes along and solves it for them.

An entire race of damsels in distress.

To quote Shepard in Citadel DLC: "Have the asari ever won a war?"  

[TheMyron]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

They did nothing about Krogan expansionism even as the complaints rolled in until an Asari world on Thessia's doorstep was targeted for "settlement."

Their response to the Morning War was to (quietly) exterminate the AI they were (quietly) developing (as seen in Citadel DLC), then turn around and heap draconian sanctions on the few survivors, in essence denouncing what was left of the entire Quarian species before the entire galaxy before showing them to the airlock - funnily enough, the Council's own laws dictated the Geth be shut down in the first place and were at least partly to blame for what happened.

They were content to let the Geth roll over human colonies in the traverse, refusing even to step up patrols of their own borders "for fear of provoking war with the terminus," even though a mere eighty years earlier they were willing to send dreadnoughts into the Phoenix Massing cluster (Terminus space) to evict the Quarians from Ekuna.

Honestly, I think the deal in ME1 was that they were comfortable with letting the heretics put us uppity humans back in our place - sitting back and letting the Geth do it kept their hands clean.

Short answer, yes - they act primarily in their own interest. They're quick to respond to things which directly threaten their power, but they will cut you loose the second you turn to them for help.

Ashley was right.

[Han Shot First]

Melbella wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The biggest problem is the asari. Whenever they hit a problem they just wait around until some other race comes along and solves it for them.

An entire race of damsels in distress.

To quote Shepard in Citadel DLC: "Have the asari ever won a war?"  

That line was one of Shepard's worst.
 
It make Shepard sound like a fool who isn't versed on the history of the galaxy he is a member of. It makes it sound as if he has never heard of the Rachni Wars or the Krogan Rebellions, both of which were wars where the Asari were on the winning side. They were also much larger and bloodier conflicts than anything the Alliance was involved in prior to the Reaper War. A couple of the battles of the Krogan Rebellions are also mentioned in the series, and the ones mentioned involve Asari space and ground forces completely clobbering the Krogan.

In contrast the lone victory of the Alliance was against Batarian pirate and mercenary proxies. The First Contact War ended as little more than a border skirmish, and had the Council not intervened its likely the Turians would have hammered the Alliance. In a side by side comparison of the Asari Republics and the Alliance, its the Asari Republics that have the much more impressive military record.

Of course since the Alliance is a relative newcomer to the galaxy the comparison isn't exactly fair. But facts are facts, and it does up the derpitude on Shepard's comment. I'd rank that one right up there with "We fight or we die. That's the plan" and "Can Asari mate with their own species?" It wasn't one of Shepard's brightest moments.

[SwobyJ]

Depends on POV.

Did the Asari win the wars, or did they get others to do it for them?

If they were toe to toe with any foe, would they win?

That's what Shepard meant, imo.

Personally I don't think the Asari would have stood a chance against the Turians, Salarians, Geth, Rachni, Krogan. They either made friends/allies with those who would/could have destroyed them otherwise, or got others to do their work for them (Salarians, Krogan, Turians).

But that doesn't mean much when you compare to humanity, which only recently (disregarding the Reaper invasion) could have the ability to stand up to... anyone. Even the Turians would have easily stomped them if not stopped by the Council.

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves. You can attribute that more to maybe the Salarians (who uplifted Krogan to fight the Rachni and developed the Genophage), the Krogan (who fought the Rachni), and the Turians (who triggered the Genophage).

The most Asari can call themselves, on the broadest scale I mean, is mediators, councilors, organizers, influencers. If we think more in their terms, then yes, they won all these wars through their connections and influencing presence. Renegade Shep don't give a damn about that, because he's about direct action creating direct results.

Renegade Shep has his derps, and this is one of them. But it also cuts into a core truth that wouldn't be uttered otherwise - the Asari get others to do their work for them, and haven't proven themselves at all as a single species. Heck, this is even reflected more when we find out they hoarded a Prothian Beacon from everyone, breaking their own galactic laws by doing so.

I think that's pretty much the Renegade way. Derpy words and unnecessary brutality, but they also cut into core truths that people wouldn't mention otherwise, and they do the brutal action that is ultimately needed in cases (not even talking about Destroy here).

[themikefest]

The Asari not winning a war is correct. At least not on their own.

They called for Turian help to stop the Krogan with the help of the Salarians who invented the genophage during the Krogan Rebellions

http://masseffect.wi...ogan_Rebellions

They were losing in the Rachni wars until the Salarians uplifted the Krogan

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Rachni_Wars

[SwobyJ]

Asari - "Ahh, what a wonderful society we have preserv... Oh s**t! Someone help!"

Though Liara + her dad are supposed to be a sign of an Asari that may end up more reflective and face their weaknesses.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 29 janvier 2014 - 05:52 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

themikefest wrote...

The Asari not winning a war is correct. At least not on their own.

They called for Turian help to stop the Krogan with the help of the Salarians who invented the genophage during the Krogan Rebellions

http://masseffect.wi...ogan_Rebellions

They were losing in the Rachni wars until the Salarians uplifted the Krogan

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Rachni_Wars

.

and yet clearly both wars were not started by the asari. the asari did not unleash the rachni nor did they uplift the krogan.

maybe thats why salarian dont blame the asari for not doing much anything cause they did not cause them. nor did the asari blame the salarians.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:54 .

[Wulfram]

SwobyJ wrote...

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves.

America as a single country has never won a major war by themselves

People who fight major wars by themselves are idiots.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 janvier 2014 - 06:51 .

[Han Shot First]

Wulfram wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves.

America as a single country has never won a major war by themselves

People who fight major wars by themselves are idiots.

Exactly.

The object of wars isn't to fight fairly. The object is to win.

And in the Asari's case part of that is not going to war without strong strategic alliances. In that, the Asari are not unlike the British Empire. In the long run Britain came out on top of the centuries of conflict between rival powers in Europe by virtue of having a smart foreign policy that cultivated stronger alliances (usually) than its chief rivals. On the other hand nations that blunder into major wars with weak alliances (Napoleonic France, Germany in both World Wars) usually end up being defeated.

[SwobyJ]

Wulfram wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves.

America as a single country has never won a major war by themselves

People who fight major wars by themselves are idiots.

America, Russia, etc have singularly won wars primarily due to their actions as nations.
(EDIT: They didn't do it *alone*. They did however, *win* from their actions.)

Canada though, has not (and I say this as a Canadian). Ours has been in a more assisting role, even when it came to larger theaters in larger wars, and then in supplemental assisting or peacekeeping roles otherwise.

It isn't that the Asari don't fight wars and help to push the tide over. They're fighters when they want to be. But SO FAR, they haven't WON a war due to their specific or overwhelming 'national' actions.

They have so far been better and mediating other wars from ever starting, and maintaining status quos, or regulated peace and procress.


Shepard is actually agreeing with you with his statements. It's not smart to go it entirely alone - even Renegade Shepard believes that. That's why he's next to Traynor, either emboldening her, or psychologically sabotaging the 'enemy'.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:53 .

[SwobyJ]

Han Shot First wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves.

America as a single country has never won a major war by themselves

People who fight major wars by themselves are idiots.

Exactly.

The object of wars isn't to fight fairly. The object is to win.

And in the Asari's case part of that is not going to war without strong strategic alliances. In that, the Asari are not unlike the British Empire. In the long run Britain came out on top of the centuries of conflict between rival powers in Europe by virtue of having a smart foreign policy that cultivated stronger alliances (usually) than its chief rivals. On the other hand nations that blunder into major wars with weak alliances (Napoleonic France, Germany in both World Wars) usually end up being defeated.

I agree. The Asari, above all else, seem to look for a stable 'soft rule' and a long lasting legacy.

I think Renegade Response Shep in Citadel DLC is just saying that the Asari, if they didn't have their alliance system, wouldn't win squat. Not battles OR wars. And that's true. Unlike the Krogan, who nearly smashed everyone (in battles), and the Rachni, that ravaged everyone (again, in battles).

He's basically just saying  "You can't win battles, you rely on others to not just win wars, but to win your battles, and you're standing alone now, whereas Traynor is better than you."

Paragon instead puts the emphasis on Shepard backing up Traynor, not the Asari standing alone.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:59 .

[jamesp81]

Han Shot First wrote...

Melbella wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The biggest problem is the asari. Whenever they hit a problem they just wait around until some other race comes along and solves it for them.

An entire race of damsels in distress.

To quote Shepard in Citadel DLC: "Have the asari ever won a war?"  

That line was one of Shepard's worst.
 
It make Shepard sound like a fool who isn't versed on the history of the galaxy he is a member of. It makes it sound as if he has never heard of the Rachni Wars or the Krogan Rebellions, both of which were wars where the Asari were on the winning side.

Being on the winning side is not the same as winning.  The Krogan did most of the dog work defeating the Rachni.  The Salarians and the Turians did most of the dog work defeating the Krogan.

[jamesp81]

SwobyJ wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

But still, the Asari as an single species has never won a major galactic war by themselves.

America as a single country has never won a major war by themselves

People who fight major wars by themselves are idiots.

America, Russia, etc have singularly won wars primarily due to their actions as nations.
(EDIT: They didn't do it *alone*. They did however, *win* from their actions.)

Canada though, has not (and I say this as a Canadian). Ours has been in a more assisting role, even when it came to larger theaters in larger wars, and then in supplemental assisting or peacekeeping roles otherwise.

It isn't that the Asari don't fight wars and help to push the tide over. They're fighters when they want to be. But SO FAR, they haven't WON a war due to their specific or overwhelming 'national' actions.

They have so far been better and mediating other wars from ever starting, and maintaining status quos, or regulated peace and procress.


Shepard is actually agreeing with you with his statements. It's not smart to go it entirely alone - even Renegade Shepard believes that. That's why he's next to Traynor, either emboldening her, or psychologically sabotaging the 'enemy'.

Good points, though I can't agree about Canada not winning.  During the bad days of WW2, Germany was coming perilously close to cutting Britain off from supplies shipped in from the US.  A great many Canadian sailors died in the freezing North Atlantic to prevent that from happening.  By the end of the war, Canada had the third largest navy in the world, behind Britain and the US, and were instrumental in breaking Germany's submarine campaign.

[SwobyJ]

That's true. My Canada example was a stretch.

[Barquiel]

The asari actually won battles against the krogan, and it's safe to assume that they were vital in holding the line in the Krogan Rebellions, at least, until the turians arrived (especially because they have a larger military than the salarians).

To use the WWII example...would the Allies have won WWII without the Soviets and America? Probably not. Does that mean Britain didn't win the war? No historian would agree with you. The winning of WWII is not credited to one nation, even though everyone acknowledged that the SU made the greatest sacrifices.

[SwobyJ]

Barquiel wrote...

The asari actually won battles against the krogan, and it's safe to assume that they were vital in holding the line in the Krogan Rebellions, at least, until the turians arrived (especially because they have a larger military than the salarians).

To use the WWII example...would the Allies have won WWII without the Soviets and America? Probably not. Does that mean Britain didn't win the war? No historian would agree with you. The winning of WWII is not credited to one nation, even though everyone acknowledged that the SU made the greatest sacrifices.

I only think it's very subjective.

While *I* believe it's more of an Allies victory (which includes Britain, so I'm with you), I just understand those saying it was 'pretty much' the USA and Soviets who 'won the thing'.

It's up to the individual to decide where to put the emphasis. On the larger faction overall, or on the entity(s) that inspired/organized the faction to win, or the entity(s) that did the most necessary direct work for the winning to happen.

And I'd bet debates still go on about that for WWII til this day. There are many of the opinion that Britain was helpful but without others' help, they wouldn't have won squat. And then it's a subjective matter again.


So that's how it goes with Shepard. He could let the Asari be and simply prop up his specialist. Or his can tick off the Asari by pointing out how they'd never have won anything (beyond as you say, 'holding the line') alone, unlike the expansionist (though not ultimate) victories of the Krogan and Rachni. Heck, even technically Geth. And more technically, Turians and Salarians.

Basically he has the option to pick on her for being the major species that may not be quite so major (in a certain point of view) as they think of themselves. That when it comes to the (I admit) broad concept of 'power', the Asari probably would have been Volus or Elcor status without getting to the Citadel first and weaving their politics around the other species that arrived.

But now I'm assuming, so I'll end here I also don't necessarily agree with a lot of what I just said, but I understand the viewpoint from a character perspective.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 30 janvier 2014 - 12:16 .

[Han Shot First]

jamesp81 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Melbella wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The biggest problem is the asari. Whenever they hit a problem they just wait around until some other race comes along and solves it for them.

An entire race of damsels in distress.

To quote Shepard in Citadel DLC: "Have the asari ever won a war?"  

That line was one of Shepard's worst.
 
It make Shepard sound like a fool who isn't versed on the history of the galaxy he is a member of. It makes it sound as if he has never heard of the Rachni Wars or the Krogan Rebellions, both of which were wars where the Asari were on the winning side.

Being on the winning side is not the same as winning.

Uh...yes it is.

Did Britain not win both World Wars?

jamesp81 wrote...

  The Krogan did most of the dog work defeating the Rachni.  The Salarians and the Turians did most of the dog work defeating the Krogan.

The Salarians created the genophage but there is no indication in the lore that they did more of the fighting than the Asari. In fact of the two military campaigns from the Krogan Rebellions that are mentioned in the series, both involve Asari ground and space forces defeating the Krogan in battle. Three if you include the opening phase of the war when the first Spectres, composed of Asari commandos and Salarian STG, sabotaged Krogan antimatter refineries, space stations, and command-and-control capabilities across Krogan space.

At Lusia the occupying Krogan had their supply lines cut off and were forced to surrender. At
Cyone the Krogan assaulted the planet several times were repeatedly repulsed by the defenders. Eventually the Asari cut the Krogan supply lines (again) and they were driven completely from the system.

On another note..the Krogan seem to have a problem with ignoring logistics. I guess they have no equivalent of the old human military axiom: "Amateurs study strategy. Professionals study logistics." Or Sun Tzu, "The line between disorder and order lies in logistics."

Modifié par Han Shot First, 30 janvier 2014 - 12:36 .

[Obadiah]

Really! The Krogan seem to thrive on war, but Sun Tzu says that fighting and winning a 100 wars is ridiculous, and a complete waste of time. At least the Krogan "scouts" knew to use deception to confuse the enemy.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 janvier 2014 - 02:14 .

[TheMyron]

Barquiel wrote...

The asari actually won battles against the krogan, and it's safe to assume that they were vital in holding the line in the Krogan Rebellions, at least, until the turians arrived (especially because they have a larger military than the salarians).

To use the WWII example...would the Allies have won WWII without the Soviets and America? Probably not. Does that mean Britain didn't win the war? No historian would agree with you. The winning of WWII is not credited to one nation, even though everyone acknowledged that the SU made the greatest sacrifices.

True, but not fair.

Russia suffered the most due to outdated tactics (charging hordes into machine gun fire / shooting those who retreated), plus, unlike with the British and Americans, the Germans showed little to no mercy with the Russians they captured.

[Derpy]

This has turned into history class.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nate_Assassin wrote...

This has turned into history class.

I never ever thought I would learn something useful here on the BSN.

[Artifex_Imperius]

TheMyron wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The asari actually won battles against the krogan, and it's safe to assume that they were vital in holding the line in the Krogan Rebellions, at least, until the turians arrived (especially because they have a larger military than the salarians).

To use the WWII example...would the Allies have won WWII without the Soviets and America? Probably not. Does that mean Britain didn't win the war? No historian would agree with you. The winning of WWII is not credited to one nation, even though everyone acknowledged that the SU made the greatest sacrifices.

True, but not fair.

Russia suffered the most due to outdated tactics (charging hordes into machine gun fire / shooting those who retreated), plus, unlike with the British and Americans, the Germans showed little to no mercy with the Russians they captured.

WW2 from space 6/6 have a look at this clip and tell me which race was more american and russian?