544 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

You guessed it. This is about paraphrasing, which, as everyone who knows me knows, I think is the worst design decision made for roleplaying games...well...ever since the first rpg appeared on an electronic medium.

But DAI will have it, so it doesn't make sense to rage against it. We can, however, try to make it bearable. Bearable, for more than that it will never be. 

I've often complained about misleading paraphrases, but this is not about that. This is rather about the fact that paraphrases don't say enough even where they are perfectly correct.

The result? I don't choose options which would be perfectly appropriate for my character because the paraphrase is so vague that it also encompasses inappropriate things. Instead, I choose a "safe" option.

A frequent problem I had in DA2 is that I do want to be diplomatic, but fear that the upper option is too moralistic or too soft or too boring. Or that I want to be firm, but don't choose the aggressive option because I don't want to come across as a jerk. Sometimes, if I actually choose the "feared" options, I find they are good options, but I can't tell in advance because the paraphrase, while it does describe what follows correctly, is too vague and doesn't describe it comphrehensively. The result is that my character's personality profile gets weakened without necessity. The game gives me the option to play my character exactly as I want them, but doesn't let me know about it. 

This is why I think that an option to show the spoken lines in advance is necessary. The main argument brought forward against it is "you don't want to read the lines and then hear them spoken." Perhaps I would indeed prefer that wasn't necessary as a rule, but the player's advance knowledge is too big of a sacrifice. The fact that options perfect for our characters may go unused because the paraphrase is necessarily too vague to exclude meanings we passionately NOT want should make this worthy of consideration. The only other solution is try-and-reload. I have done that. Often. I would prefer not to do it again.

Edit:
I call this a "second-degree design flaw", as opposed to the "first degree design flaw" where the game deceives you into believing there is an appropriate option while there isn't one. Note that none of these would ever happen if the spoken lines were shown in advance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 01:46 .

[KiwiQuiche]

They could do it like Deus Ex, where if you lingered over a paraphrase long enough it would show up with the full dialogue so you knew what Jensen was gonna say if you use that line. That way you can have a paraphrase without having the full dialogue clogging the screen if you didn't want to.

[Ieldra]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They could do it like Deus Ex, where if you lingered over a paraphrase long enough it would show up with the full dialogue so you knew what Jensen was gonna say if you use that line. That way you can have a paraphrase without having the full dialogue clogging the screen if you didn't want to.

Thanks for mentioning this. This is what I intended to use as an example but forgot to include in the OP. I've played DXHR extensively, and this system works very well. I should add that it was also necessary in the social confrontations, for a discerning player could actually know which option would get them on the "winning" path, but only if the exact line was known, since specific player lines could be recognized as being appropriate responses for specific antagonist lines.

[KiwiQuiche]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They could do it like Deus Ex, where if you lingered over a paraphrase long enough it would show up with the full dialogue so you knew what Jensen was gonna say if you use that line. That way you can have a paraphrase without having the full dialogue clogging the screen if you didn't want to.

Thanks for mentioning this. This is what I intended to use as an example but forgot to include in the OP. I've played DXHR extensively, and this system works very well. I should add that it was also necessary in the social confrontations, for a discerning player could actually know which option would get them on the "winning" path, but only if the exact line was known, since specific player lines could be recognized as being appropriate responses for specific antagonist lines.

I suppose that really depends on how the devs plan to approach the dialogue/arguments within the game and if you can actually reason with said anatgonists. Way it sounds, most are gonna be off their rockers. But in that case, the line should be easy enough to understand if it's paraphrase, shouldn't it? Other wise it kinda defeats the purpose.

[Laughing_Man]

I agree, it's the same old problem of taking control of the character away from the player.

That said, can someone please explain to me the meaning of the diamond icon from the dialogue wheel in DA2?... I still haven't figured it out.

[KiwiQuiche]

TheRedVipress wrote...

I agree, it's the same old problem of taking control of the character away from the player.

That said, can someone please explain to me the meaning of the diamond icon from the dialogue wheel in DA2?... I still haven't figured it out.

Diamond-


?

That means charming dialogue.

[Ieldra]

TheRedVipress wrote...
I agree, it's the same old problem of taking control of the character away from the player.

No, in this specific case it isn't a problem of control. The option we want does indeed exist, so we can play the character as we want them, and the game doesn't force unwanted traits on them either. It's just that we don't know how. 

That said, can someone please explain to me the meaning of the diamond icon from the dialogue wheel in DA2?... I still haven't figured it out.

Here's a list of the intended meanings. Needless, to say, they often aren't correct. The diamond icon in particular was often used in confusing ways.

[Lolomlas]

You do know they have a system similar to the one mentioned above, right? At least that is what I know. If you linger over the answers, short messages will appear, about what will happen if you chose that answer. Just watch one of the gameplay videos taken from PAX and you can see an exsample for this.

[nightscrawl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
They could do it like Deus Ex, where if you lingered over a paraphrase long enough it would show up with the full dialogue so you knew what Jensen was gonna say if you use that line. That way you can have a paraphrase without having the full dialogue clogging the screen if you didn't want to.

Thanks for mentioning this. This is what I intended to use as an example but forgot to include in the OP. I've played DXHR extensively, and this system works very well. I should add that it was also necessary in the social confrontations, for a discerning player could actually know which option would get them on the "winning" path, but only if the exact line was known, since specific player lines could be recognized as being appropriate responses for specific antagonist lines.

The DXHR method, in addition to other examples, has been mentioned several times on the forums and has always been dismissed. They don't want to show the full line. They've tried various methods for their in-house testing and it doesn't work for them. I would also prefer the full line with a hover method, but it's not going to happen. At this point, all we can do is believe them when they say they understand the problem(s) with paraphrasing, are actively working to make it better, and hope that the end result will exceed all of our expectations.

Lolomlas wrote...

You do know they have a system similar to the one mentioned above, right? At least that is what I know. If you linger over the answers, short messages will appear, about what will happen if you chose that answer. Just watch one of the gameplay videos taken from PAX and you can see an exsample for this.

As I understand it, those messages are related to what your character will do, or the result of your actions, as in "Picking this option will have you abandon Crestwood," so the player is fully aware of the action they are about to take. That's not really the same as showing a full line of dialog.

But I will allow that I haven't watched the video, and I have no intention of watching it. I don't want any spoilers. The only reason I even know about the Crestwood decision and associated dialog is because I inadvertently read about it in an article.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 28 janvier 2014 - 11:47 .

[caradoc2000]

Personally, I'm fine with the DA2 system, but I am not against some kind of tooltip solution.

[Ieldra]

Lolomlas wrote...
You do know they have a system similar to the one mentioned above, right? At least that is what I know. If you linger over the answers, short messages will appear, about what will happen if you chose that answer. Just watch one of the gameplay videos taken from PAX and you can see an exsample for this.

That system only pertains to decisions about plot-relevant actions, not to dialogue in general. A description will appear that shows what an option does exactly.  

[The Elder King]

Sadly, they'll not to DEHR's route. I hope that with the system they shown at PAX (which I hope it'll be extended to all dialogue choices) will resolve the misunderstanding with the paraphrase.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 janvier 2014 - 11:52 .

[Examurai]

If I recall, didn't a dev mention somewhere that there will be a toggle available for these paraphrasing. If you do not like it, you could just switch it off.

[Laughing_Man]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No, in this specific case it isn't a problem of control. The option we want does indeed exist, so we can play the character as we want them, and the game doesn't force unwanted traits on them either. It's just that we don't know how. 

The end result is almost the same.

[Ieldra]

nightscrawl wrote...
The DXHR method, in addition to other examples, has been mentioned several times on the forums and has always been dismissed. They don't want to show the full line. They've tried various methods for their in-house testing and it doesn't work for them. I would also prefer the full line with a hover method, but it's not going to happen. At this point, all we can do is believe them when they say they understand the problem(s) with paraphrasing, are actively working to make it better, and hope that the end result will exceed all of our expectations.

Ah, drat. That sucks. I wonder if they'd at least be willing to make the paraphrases longer. The content of several lines can't be summarized with five words. 

@Examurai:
No, that's only for plot-relevant decisions, so that the player understands exactly what they're going to do with this option. I wonder why understanding what they're going to say is considered to be so different.

Edit:
I am somewhat irritated that they insist on using a mechanism that introduces more problems than it solves. Why the hell, Bioware?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 12:02 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I prefer this style of dialogues:







Rather than Mass Effect's style: See the Blue/Red button. Choose it.

[Ieldra]

@all:
In this thread, David Gaider refers to a long post he made about paraphrasing and didn't want to repeat. Does anyone have a link? I would really like to know the details of their take on it.

[nightscrawl]

^ It was one of the two I linked in my post.

[Jilinthar]

Examurai1 wrote...

If I recall, didn't a dev mention somewhere that there will be a toggle available for these paraphrasing. If you do not like it, you could just switch it off.

That'd be awesome! Now all I need is an option to mute my character and all is good.

[Examurai]

I thought the toggle would apply to both plot decision making and dialogues.

[Examurai]

Jilinthar wrote...

Examurai1 wrote...

If I recall, didn't a dev mention somewhere that there will be a toggle available for these paraphrasing. If you do not like it, you could just switch it off.

That'd be awesome! Now all I need is an option to mute my character and all is good.

The quite lip moving would be awkward though.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but be states in this thread that he would try and link this discussion about the wheel in future talks about why they are sticking wih the paraphrase, why no hover over option would be possible and what is possibly on the table for clarity in DA:I.

http://social.biowar...9639/6#14567693

For my own tastes, the paraphrase system is the worst move placed in roleplaying games in the history if the genre. They may as well say "don't try and play any character outside of one that would always choose the same option type/color dialogue, it will only be confusing." Navigating DA2's confusing icons often just pushed players into choosing all Dip/Sar/Agg options throughouthe game, such that seeing a Hawke under one of these mood types was the only sense of control to be had.

Try playing a Hawke that is diplomatic to Mages, aggressive to Templars and Qunari, while sarcastic to everyone else and you'll have an idea of how useless the overall system is.

[Ieldra]

nightscrawl wrote...
^ It was one of the two I linked in my post.

Thanks...

Hmph. I am not at all convinced. "We do not offer, support and test options unless we believe they work as
a viable option for the game as we intend it to be played"?

You know how that sounds to me? "We intend the game to be played in a way that the main character doesn't know their own minds". I take issue with that.

[superdeathdealer14]

This is a pretty bad photo but it was the only one I could find.

[Ieldra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
For my own tastes, the paraphrase system is the worst move placed in roleplaying games in the history if the genre.

I am delighted to see the second sentence of my OP echoed by someone else. I like DA so I'll wait and see what DAI has to offer, but in the long run this could put me off playing these kinds of games completely.

They said the system DXHR used doesn't work for them, but they haven't explained why. I remain unconvinced.

@superdeathdealer:
As explained before, that will only happen for plot-relevant decisions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 12:27 .