544 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

OK, if we're going to insist on proving things from numbers, then let's look at some.

BTW - in this case it is an apples to apples comparison, although at the end of the day some still have doubts about vgchartz methodology. Including me.

But if we're going to do this, let's do this.

According to this, which I believe is total copies across all platforms (the problem is a lot of figures people are quoting are sales in the first few weeks, but who gives a crap? I assure you what EA cares about is total sales),

If Dragon Age: Origins sold 4 million copies (BTW about the same as ME2 or ME3 just a bit less), &
Dragon Age 2 sold 2 million copies. (*)

Riddle me this Batman. If DA2 is an improvement in direction from DA:O, why did it sell half as many copies?

"It was rushed! They only had a year development cycle!" OK. I will grant that. I don't think it's a sufficient explanation, though.

Perhaps it was rushed ... and some fans didn't like the change in direction. As well. 

(*) EDIT: hmmm, something about the data presented in this article does not match the source. I may be coming back to modify these figures. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DA2 was a bad game. That doesn't mean that some of the things they changed weren't in the right direction. Considering the massive success of Mass Effect, from which DA2 obviously takes much of its inspiration, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

The failure of DA2 certainly wasn't because of the voiced protagonist, or the dialogue wheel. It was PROBABLY because of the things that were actually criticized, such as the reuse of assets (the same cavern and celalr etc.), the enemies raining from the sky, and the unfocused story.

[Realmzmaster]

I have read the arguments presented. The voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel alone are not the only contributing factors to why one game sells better than another. There are myriad of factors to consider. Why did Skyrim and Oblivion out sell DAO? Both have silent protagonists and show full lines of text, yet Skyrim sold three times as many copies as DAO and Oblivion almost twice as many. Could it be that many gamers like sandbox open world to story driven games?

Did gamers like Skyrim in spite of the silent protagonist? Why did Fable III out sell DAO and that was basically on one platform (XBox)?

As I have stated there are far more reasons why one game does better than another than voiced versus silent or the dialogue wheel.

We as gamers look for quality in the games we play. Developers want quality in their games also, but at the end of the day the game has to sell well or the bills do not get paid.

PST (Planescape Torment) is one of the poster children for games that won awards but did not sell well for many reasons.

There are many items gamers would like to see in games, but at the end of the day no developer can accommodate everyone. Everything comes down to resources and how they will be allocated.

[addiction21]

Oh look another "my idea of roleplaying and how I prefer to go about it is the only right one" thread.

As for that last page. Show me actual evidence the success of those games so many are touting was due solely to that single aspect. That it was the draw that brought so many to buy it. Don't bother I know you can't, you know you can't you won't, and will just dodge it.

[CybAnt1]

(*) No, digging into the vgchartz database, it seems it's def. 4.52 million global units for DAO, vs. 2.26 million for DA2 (that appears to be looking at all editions, platforms, and including digital copies... I think. It isn't exactly clear.)

5.05 million for Mass Effect 3.

[CybAnt1]

DA2 was a bad game. That doesn't mean that some of the things they changed weren't in the right direction.

And you know this how? Or simply believe it because you want to? 

Considering the massive success of Mass Effect, from which DA2 obviously takes much of its inspiration, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

"Massive"? By what metric? 

The failure of DA2 certainly wasn't because of the voiced protagonist, or the dialogue wheel. It was PROBABLY because of the things that were actually criticized, such as the reuse of assets (the same cavern and celalr etc.), the enemies raining from the sky, and the unfocused story.

Again, you know this how? I am not claiming the opposite, I suspect it is a contributing factor, but I have no methodology to determine how much. 

Uhhh.... the voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel were "criticized" too. Yes, by easily dismissed BSN whiners. I get that. Also, BTW, by gaming magazine reviewers, by people on the Dragon Age II Wiki, and by other critics. That has already been documented. Often by me. 

So, move your goalposts where you prefer, but don't tell me these "features" "weren't actually criticized". Instead, retreat to the more defensible position that you either didn't care what those critics had to say, or their opinions should be ignored. 

[CybAnt1]

Oh look another "my idea of roleplaying and how I prefer to go about it is the only right one" thread.

Actually, I prefer to think of this as a "developers, please leave your players free to roleplay how you feel like doing it" kind of thread. 

Nobody's telling anybody else to roleplay the way they do, just being asked for the freedom to do it themselves the way they like. 

[Realmzmaster]

CybAnt1 wrote...

(*) No, digging into the vgchartz database, it seems it's def. 4.52 million global units for DAO, vs. 2.26 million for DA2 (that appears to be looking at all editions, platforms, and including digital copies... I think. It isn't exactly clear.)

5.05 million for Mass Effect 3.

So basically ME3 out sold DAO even with the dialogue wheel, voiced protagonist and autodialogue. The ME series as whole right now is Bioware's best selling franchise. So there are other forces at work than just voiced protagonist and dialogue wheel.

[CybAnt1]

I will not dispute ME3 has outsold DA:O.

Same problem remains: that could also be because people prefer sci-fi games and shooters to fantasy games with medieval-like combat.

At the end of the day, until someone actually does quasi-scientific surveying of gamers as to what they do or don't like, there's little absolute conclusions that can be drawn.

Here are two things I will assert:

a) DA2 sold less copies than DA1 - we all agree on this data (also won fewer awards, got lower overall review scores)
a contributing factor to that decline in sales was a sense in change of direction for the series. Of which, BTW "wheel+paraphrase" is just one part. We might also add a move to "press the button and awesome happens". Or a move in general to that "loss of agency" thing another thread is talking about.

Hey, don't take my word for it. BIOWARE KNOWS IT. I just see an interesting set of reactions to it.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Dragon_Age_II

Dragon Age II's lead designer, Mike Laidlaw, in an interview with GameSpot, addressed the fans' concerns toward the changes in Dragon Age II by stating that BioWare will "despite Dragon Age's players' criticisms continue to tune and capitalize on that 'fusion' between the Origins experience and Dragon Age II". (*) Additionally, he also noted that a return to the RPG style of Dragon Age: Origins is unlikely, proclaiming "The big key is to not adjust 180 degrees again, because we've done this."[52]

[snip]

In June 2011, in an interview with GameRant.com, EA Games Label President Frank Gibeau acknowledged the fans' disappointment over the direction Dragon Age II took, (**) and proclaimed: "As we think about where we take the franchise next, we're going to take that into consideration and really engage them.

[end]

(*) Changes = changes in design - hope that's clear. OK, so we know from Msr. Laidlaw that we won't go full 180. That's cool. I wasn't expecting that. What he said, though, suggests they will bring back some things from Origins and fuse them with DA2 -- end result could be good, as I've said, there WERE things DA2 did right. 

(**) Disappointment with the DIRECTION DA II TOOK. I repeat, THE DIRECTION DA II TOOK. 

THEY KNOW THERE WERE PROBLEMS, they're going to do something about it. The problem is nobody's actually sure of that "something"; and so here we are. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:03 .

[wolfhowwl]

CybAnt1 wrote...

(*) No, digging into the vgchartz database, it seems it's def. 4.52 million global units for DAO, vs. 2.26 million for DA2 (that appears to be looking at all editions, platforms, and including digital copies... I think. It isn't exactly clear.)

5.05 million for Mass Effect 3.

VGChartz shows zero PC sales in North America and also doesn't seem to be counting Ultimate Edition sales for the consoles either.

Something is off here, if anything DA:O sales would be higher than what is reported on that site.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:04 .

[addiction21]

CybAnt1 wrote...


Same problem remains: that could also be because people prefer sci-fi games and shooters to fantasy games with medieval-like combat.

Doesn't explain why Skyrim sold more and is not a shooter or sci-fi game.

[addiction21]

wolfhowwl wrote...

VGChartz shows zero PC sales in North America and also doesn't seem to be counting Ultimate Edition sales for the consoles either.

Something is off here, if anything DA:O sales would be higher than what is reported on that site.

You know what I am waiting for. That X game that sold so much more then Y game did so because of this one aspect so many try to claim it did.

Sorry its not that simple.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We already KNOW that they are keeping the dialogue wheel, so obviously the vast majority of all test that BioWare has done has presumably proven to them that people generally prefer the dialogue wheel. They are also keeping a voiced protagonist, again proving that this is what BioWare wants, and presumably what all their tests shows people prefer.

I get that you don't like it, but you are gonna have to deal with it. Honestly I cannot be bothered with defending a feature I happen to like, to a bunch of guys with some sort of superiority complex about the features they like.
At the end of the day I am the one who gets the feature I like in the game.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:14 .

[KaiserShep]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DA2 was a bad game. That doesn't mean that some of the things they changed weren't in the right direction. Considering the massive success of Mass Effect, from which DA2 obviously takes much of its inspiration, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

The failure of DA2 certainly wasn't because of the voiced protagonist, or the dialogue wheel. It was PROBABLY because of the things that were actually criticized, such as the reuse of assets (the same cavern and celalr etc.), the enemies raining from the sky, and the unfocused story.

I feel alone in actually enjoying DA2's story quite a lot, despite its lack of narrative focus. The reused cellar and cave thing was pretty annoying though. I was glad to see a return of unique subterranean environments and forests in Mark of the Assassin, but I suppose I can't count a DLC.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KaiserShep wrote...
I feel alone in actually enjoying DA2's story quite a lot, despite its lack of narrative focus. The reused cellar and cave thing was pretty annoying though. I was glad to see a return of unique subterranean environments and forests in Mark of the Assassin, but I suppose I can't count a DLC.

Overall I liked the game, but I couldn't help but feel annoyed at the obvious rush jobs present in the game. What annoyed me he most was that I could easily see myself enjoy DA2 far more than DA:O, if DA2 had just been allowed the same amount of time in development.

[Martyr1777]

addiction21 wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...


Same problem remains: that could also be because people prefer sci-fi games and shooters to fantasy games with medieval-like combat.

Doesn't explain why Skyrim sold more and is not a shooter or sci-fi game.

Skrim sold.more because some how there is this nonsensical cult following for games with not substance or depth.

The only reason skyrim is even playable as a modern game is because they let fan build half of jt. Without mods I cant put 10 minute into that game. Seriously , makes no sense how dialoge the you can pull from a 90's game and completely empty and obvious plot lines make people think its an RPG, let alone a good one.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think people played Skyrim for the plot. I know I certainly didn't.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think people played Skyrim for the plot. I know I certainly didn't.

But the Dovahkiin's story was SO  compelling!

[CybAnt1]

We already KNOW that they are keeping the dialogue wheel, so obviously the vast majority of all test that BioWare has done has presumably proven to them that people generally prefer the dialogue wheel.

You know this how? Here's what I do know.

http://www.neogaf.co...ad.php?t=628256

 They're not going to scrap "Bioware-style choices", and there was an interesting discussion of persuasion options (Patrick said Mass Effect arguably became 'pick the glowing blue/red option to win'). They want to have *some* other influence on dialogue and choice outcomes, whether that be stats-based, or having certain options require having a particular companion present, or having dialogue or choices dependent on other things said earlier in the conversation.

- Patrick said the best choices are the ones that get people genuinely thinking and debating the one they chose (*). He wants to write them so that each choice looks "right", depending on the player's worldview or philosophy - not just "save the baby or save the warlock", which are absurdly obvious binary good/evil choices. 

- Patrick, Cameron and Chris (I think Chris was involved) talked about the proposal of using random numbers in determining the outcome of dialogue options or choices, and said they've basically rejected doing this. Players like seeing the consequences of their choices, and seeing a cause -> effect relationship, and introducing an element of randomness to choices/dialogue could be seen as unfairly punishing them. Also, players would reload if they "randomly" got a "bad" outcome, or something they didn't want, and anything that forces the player to constantly reload their saves isn't very fun gameplay. 

- On dialogue: 
- Patrick Weekes was talking about the reaction to Hawke and the way dialogue in DA2 was affected by previous things the player had said in the conversation. He said some players found this confusing and that they were looking at it for DAI. 
- Patrick also said (unprompted) that they're aware of the backlash against ME3's 'autodialogue' 
- People were also occasionally frustrated by dialogue paraphrases in DA2 (where the dialogue option they picked didn't really sound like what Hawke actually said), Patrick and Karin Weekes had an interesting and entertaining conversation about the difficulty of paraphrasing. It's an issue that they're kept in mind when developing DAI. (*)

I get that you don't like it, but you are gonna have to deal with it. Honestly I cannot be bothered 

For someone who can't be bothered, you're doing an awful bit of bothering. 

(*) Deal with that, pal. 

They know it's a problem. Move your goalposts. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:27 .

[addiction21]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Skrim sold.more because some how there is this nonsensical cult following for games with not substance or depth.

There is nothing nonsensical about it if you actually listen to the people who have found depth and substance to it.

The nonsensical cult following are the people running around screaming about how some game did not cater to their particular tastes and anyone who enjoys such a thing is inferior.

Your whole part on mods is BS since that only applies to a lesser part that bought the game and only a part of them use mods.

[EmperorSahlertz]

@CybAnt1
Should I add an "anymore" for your comprehension?
You didn't watch the gameplay demo did you? There was a big nice and marvelous dialogue wheel for everyone to enjoy. Have fun. Bye.

[CybAnt1]

I think I've already acknowledged the continued existence of some kind of wheel (there have been statements to that effect), but it seems everything known to date also indicates they're doing it differently. I also already know they're keeping the voiced protagonist. 

What we don't know is the "how and in what way differently". That different way could include tooltips for paraphrases, which Ieldra asked for (and nothing else). 

That is why Ieldra started this thread.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 31 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[Mr.House]

ragtagfleet wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

ragtagfleet wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here you've described my experience while playing DA2 and the ME games perfectly.. That's how I felt: as if I was gambling with my (!) protagonist's characterization. Will she say what I want next time or will I have to re-load? Will there be an option at all which says somewhat what I want? Because even if there is, I won't know it unless I have cheated and reloaded so many times that I know all possible responses.

I am having real trouble understanding how *anyone* can consider whatever imaginary benefit comes from the paraphasing worth such a cost. It is no solution to anything, it only causes problems.

THe gain is that MOST players aren't rolepalyers at all. They couldn't care less about some imaginary background or motivation for a character. They play the game for the purpose of experiencing the story and action of the game, and a PC like Hawke is vastly superior as a PC to the Warden for this demographic, and since this demographic vastly outnubmers every single group of RPers, even if put together, this is the group catered to.

SO why does Skyrim have more players?

And, conversely, why does TW series, which is similarly a single-character, Action RPG like Skyrim but with a more cinematic bend and a set vocied character like what Bioware is moving towards, sell the lowest of all three IPs mentioned so far? 

Why did DA:O sell almost double what DA2 did? And millions more than ME2 and ME1?

You can't say "the masses want this, deal with it" when the masses actually show up for the very thing we are asking for.

ME3 outsold DA:O. Clearly, what the Dragon Age franchise needs is a voiced protagonist with tons of autodialogue. And multiplayer. 

No it didn't. You might want to check that again.

http://www.vgchartz....e=mass effect 3
http://www.vgchartz....on age: origins

Those are just estimates of course, but even if you go strictly by the numbers EA reports, ME3 shipped 3.5 million in its first week, vs 3.2 million for DA:O in 3 months. 

Dude, Bioware has outright stated DAO sold OVER 5 million copies. FIVE MILLION COPIES. That is more then 3.5 million copies. Also vgchartz is very unreliable, why peopel keep using it when the offical numbers from Bioware where showne is beyond me.

[CybAnt1]

 http://www.ign.com/b...ome-new-details

Something I have read, but isn't featured in the screenshot is that a small description will appear when you highlight a dialogue choice.  It won't tell you word for word what your character will say, instead it will give you a description of where your comment will lead the conversation next or if it could cause an outcome where words are no longer necessary.

[end]

[/b]http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Age:_Inquisition

According to Mike Laidlaw, as in Dragon Age: Origins[/i], the Inquisitor will be able to speak to companions as desired, though not necessarily in every location.
[b]
[end]

We're winning, we're winning, the insurgency is winning. :D

Modifié par CybAnt1, 31 janvier 2014 - 05:04 .

[KaiserShep]

I can't imagine anyone is losing if it means the options are to become more comprehensive.