544 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir JK]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Someday there's going to be a Shakespeare play where instead of saying,

To be, or not to be, that is the question—
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?

The actor will see on his script [Melancholy] Life is a bummer.

Hah! Best Paraphrase ever.

Sundance31us wrote...
DA2
the discussion with Anders after helping him with Karl; it's been a
while since I've played the scene, but my recollection of it was that
Hawk can either kick the puppy or encourage the relationship. There was
no middle ground or gentle rejection.

Actually... Hawke isn't even remotely unkind in that exchange. What he/she says is "I don't want you thinking about me that way" in a firm, but not unkind manner.
It is however, Blunt. And yeah... it causes some minor rivalry.

It's also possibly to go around it politely and thus avoid that exchange... but I cannot remember how.

[TK514]

Is it a slow post day? Did someone have a quota they needed to meet? Why is this being discussed, again, when BioWare has been and will continue to be unwavering in their stance on this subject?

If people want this to change in future installments, DA:I being out of the question, you're going to have to come up with an alternative they haven't seen before that fits their apparently strict criteria for acceptable.

Sort of that miracle occurring, the best you can hope for us that iterative change over years of releases, or a complete shift in technology or directives from on high, finally gets you closer.

[CybAnt1]

While the paraphrases were frustrating at times, I think of it as a gain in information, not a loss.

Oh yes, I know my exact emotional state, out of 3 possibilities, without any possible ambiguity there, but not what words I'm going to use.

That might help Kindergartners deal with their teacher.

Adults in handling situations need to figure out not just the right emotional reaction, but the proper words to use. 

Being Diplomatic, in particular, well there it's critical. Actual diplomats need to do more than act empathetic and nice. That in itself does not stop wars. Word choice can be rather crucial. 

Oh, and Jerry Seinfeld doesn't make you laugh, just by contorting his face into a smile and looking happy. Jokes work because of the words used. Seinfeld the comedian is not handed a paraphrase of what he's going to deliver to his audience -- instead, he memorizes the entire joke. 

I agree being Angry just requires a short paraphrase, because that's all really angry people need. Like I said, one word will often do. 

[Ieldra]

TK514 wrote...
Why is this being discussed, again, when BioWare has been and will continue to be unwavering in their stance on this subject?

This problem is brought up again because it bears repeating. Also, I thought I had something new to add to the debate. I was wrong, but it still bears repeating.

[CybAnt1]

In games, and in that mystical land of enchantment known as "IRL," people can change their minds.

It may be too late in this case, the upcoming release, but could stimulate thinking for future releases.

Hope springs eternal. [Happy Face Icon]

[nightscrawl]

^ Well now you're just being snarky. No point in continuing this discussion.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sith Grey Warden wrote...

This is pretty much the one thing that could keep me from buying DAI within weeks of launch. If we're given insufficient information to know what the PC is going to do, I'm most likely not getting the game until it's on sale for under $20.

This is my EXACT feelings. My primary reason for being on the BSN, aside from the fun and friends I've built up here and the non-Bioware-game discussions I find interesting, is waiting to see them roll out their in-depth discussion of the dialogue system. And I do mean IN-DEPTH. 

For a company that focuses on story, character development, NPC interaction and PC characterization through dialogue, the fact that they rarely talk about their dialgoue systems is baffling to me. While many here are clammoring for companion and romance reveals, I am only interested in their systems, both combat and dialogue. I'd prefer to not be spoiled on the story in case I do want to buy the game, but that seems inevitable while waiting for info on how the game itself will work and play. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 janvier 2014 - 03:18 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree being Angry just requires a short paraphrase, because that's all really angry people need. Like I said, one word will often do.

I highly disagree.

You never know if Hawke is going to be quietly seething, pointedly barbed, aggressively yelling or even directly assaulting someone. Thinly veiled contempt and outright confrontation are worlds apart, yet would both fall under the "aggressive" response type. I'd say it is arguably much more important for MORE clarification when you are being antagonistic (like, to what degree and on what subject) than on being funny or nice. Insulting someone's hair and insulting someone's recently deceased friend are both aggressive and even insulting... but one is highly inappropriate.

You should NEVER dig on someone's hair.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 janvier 2014 - 03:17 .

[Sanunes]

What if there is a consequence for having full lines of dialogue, such as being limited to having only a single voice actor for the main character to make sure all the dialogue text matches what the voice actor is saying and making sure it uses the right line of dialogue and text releated to it, which might even mean the only character we can play is a Human Male.

If I was given that choice, I would pick paraphrasing all day long.

[TurretSyndrome]

Yeah, another one of those things Bioware is stupidly stubborn about not changing, and they can be so adamant about it, that it would seem like the people complaining are the ones in the wrong.

In my opinion the entire dialogue wheel system should be scrapped. Allowing only three set emotions, glued to three set phrases. Wanna choose a different way to say something with the same emotion? NOPE! Wanna know exactly how your character is going to respond? NOPE!

Add that to no anti-Maker/god attitude, no mod support, no weapon sheathes, possible previous protagonists rape with Gaider's snide way of revealing to us that once the game is done, the protags are "Bioware's property" to do with as they please. All these slowly distance me from the game, the franchise even.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sanunes wrote...

What if there is a consequence for having full lines of dialogue, such as being limited to having only a single voice actor for the main character to make sure all the dialogue text matches what the voice actor is saying and making sure it uses the right line of dialogue and text releated to it, which might even mean the only character we can play is a Human Male.

If I was given that choice, I would pick paraphrasing all day long.

I don't see how adding text to the UI would affect anything other than the UI itself. Nothing about the line itself is changed, not how it is recorded or who it is performed by. It is simply subtitles (which already exist) before you choose the dialogue option. Period. 

Again, there may be UI or overall player experience concerns with hearing the same line they just read, but it wouldn't affect anything to do with the crafting or performing of the lines. It COULDN'T. Your fears are invalid. 

[Sanunes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sanunes wrote...

What if there is a consequence for having full lines of dialogue, such as being limited to having only a single voice actor for the main character to make sure all the dialogue text matches what the voice actor is saying and making sure it uses the right line of dialogue and text releated to it, which might even mean the only character we can play is a Human Male.

If I was given that choice, I would pick paraphrasing all day long.

I don't see how adding text to the UI would affect anything other than the UI itself. Nothing about the line itself is changed, not how it is recorded or who it is performed by. It is simply subtitles (which already exist) before you choose the dialogue option. Period. 

Again, there may be UI or overall player experience concerns with hearing the same line they just read, but it wouldn't affect anything to do with the crafting or performing of the lines. It COULDN'T. Your fears are invalid. 

So how come in Mass Effect 1 there were differences between Jennifer Hale's preformance and Mark Meer's? If even if one performance is more paragon/renegade then the other why wouldn't there be a chance they use different words or contractions instead of what is on the script.  I remember back with Mass Effect 3 there was the comment that Jennifer Hale was the very first voice actor and everyone else based their recordings on that, that also leaves room for minor changes to when Mark Meer recorded.  So even if one dialogue line is wrong, I can see this exact same arguement being held again because of these vary reasons, for the dialogue at some points didn't match up with what is being said.

[Naesaki]

Got to love the Fandumb for any games series, nothing will ever be perfect for anyone, someone is always going to be unhappy with a decision the developer makes, everyone hates this, but others hate that, but some like this! . But there can't be a happy medium because someone will go "Oh they are playing to that crowd and sacrificing what we want!"

[nightscrawl]

Sanunes wrote...

So how come in Mass Effect 1 there were differences between Jennifer Hale's preformance and Mark Meer's? If even if one performance is more paragon/renegade then the other why wouldn't there be a chance they use different words or contractions instead of what is on the script.  I remember back with Mass Effect 3 there was the comment that Jennifer Hale was the very first voice actor and everyone else based their recordings on that, that also leaves room for minor changes to when Mark Meer recorded.  So even if one dialogue line is wrong, I can see this exact same arguement being held again because of these vary reasons, for the dialogue at some points didn't match up with what is being said.

That may have been the case with ME1, but I can tell you after playing DA2 as both a male and female Hawke numerous times, all of the dialog is exactly the same between the male and female voice actors. The only differences being some tone and occasional word emphasis: You have something worth doing? vs You have something worth doing?

[Beerfish]

I don't mind paraphrasing, BioWare just has to be more careful about the one or two times a game they miss the mark badly and fool the character into saying something they would have had no intention of saying.

[Naesaki]

Beerfish wrote...

I don't mind paraphrasing, BioWare just has to be more careful about the one or two times a game they miss the mark badly and fool the character into saying something they would have had no intention of saying.

thats all they need to do to make the dialogue wheel better

Yet other BSN members just seem to be overreacting like crazy over something we know very little on atm, people need to calm down and actually wait until we find out how the dialogue wheel is being implemented this time, and then maybe throw a hissy fit or two.

Its inevitable though, once information about the game starts flowing freely, there's going to be double digit number of threads of people going
"Bioware has killed this game for me!!"
"I won't buy this game until it shows up in a bargain bin for £15/$15"
"This Paraphrase is all wrong, I want him to say this, but he said this, even though what he said matches the paraphrase but i'm entitled so its my way or the high way!"

I know its good in a community to have some healthy discussion , but when it comes to something like this, why don't we actually wait until we know more about it rather than basing on what it was like past titles, Bioware does learn things ya know, they might pleasently surprise us 

Modifié par Naesaki, 28 janvier 2014 - 03:53 .

[spirosz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

For a company that focuses on story, character development, NPC interaction and PC characterization through dialogue, the fact that they rarely talk about their dialgoue systems is baffling to me. 

Maybe it's because they feel they have it set in stone, so there is no need to dive deep into really expressing it among fans? 

[Tarek]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They could do it like Deus Ex, where if you lingered over a paraphrase long enough it would show up with the full dialogue so you knew what Jensen was gonna say if you use that line. That way you can have a paraphrase without having the full dialogue clogging the screen if you didn't want to.

YES PLZ

[Ieldra]

Naesaki wrote...
Got to love the Fandumb for any games series, nothing will ever be perfect for anyone, someone is always going to be unhappy with a decision the developer makes, everyone hates this, but others hate that, but some like this! . But there can't be a happy medium because someone will go "Oh they are playing to that crowd and sacrificing what we want!"

This is exactly what has not been happening here. I've seen no mention of the "pandering to X" here. As for the contested feature, it's a digital decision: either you have paraphrasing or not, and whether or not it is possible to improve the system to a state where it's satisfying is exactly the issue at hand.

Maybe it actually is possible to make it somewhat satisfying. The problem is that I don't see why it was introduced in the first place. I don't find the given arguments convincing given that paraphrasing has intrinsic problems that can only be mitigated but never solved.

I have played games with fully voice-acted protagonists and no paraphrasing. There was absolutely no problem at all with them and the intrinsic problems with paraphrasing also weren't there of course. So this appears to me like a feature that introduces problems while solving a non-existent one. Pardon me if I fail to be convinced by that.   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 04:43 .

[Naesaki]

I think its just got to the point its Bioware's Trademark now and they quite like it, it suits the purpose for what they wish to achieve, So unless something serious happens , its unfortunately not going to go anywhere Ieldra. :/ I think you are quite understanding of it, and despite it all you will still enjoy inquisition.

Its a much better approach then the people who refuse to buy it because of this and will it only pick it up when its in a bargain bin, now that I think is unfair but of course people are entitled to their own opinions

I think it can be a very good system the paraphrase just needs to match what will be said more closely.

Like 

"Your hair looks good" 

results in

"Hey I think your hair is looking good today"

rather than

"Hey I think your hair is looking very nice today"

obviously not the best example but its these kind of tweeks that need making

Modifié par Naesaki, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:00 .

[Ieldra]

It's more a long-term effect I'm aiming for. A little stone to add weight to a possible decision to scrap the paraphrasing in  future games.

Also, if the spoken line is short the paraphrase can match it closely. The problems appear when the lines get longer and the content more complicated. Then the system breaks down.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:03 .

[CybAnt1]

^ Well now you're just being snarky. No point in continuing this discussion.

Oh sure. The BSN is now a snark free zone.

That will now leave about, what, 2 or 3 threads open?

You know, it irritates me highly when people are looking for a win-win situation that pleases both sides, and then are told they are not doing that. Both Ieldra and I (& others) have suggested ways to keep the wheel and voicing, while solving the problem of mere paraphrasing.

And I gotta tell you, I really think sometimes people are sometimes living in alternative universes. I never had a huge problem with tone misrepresentation, and thought it only happened once or twice in DAO. But I gotta tell you it was far more than "once or twice" where what Hawke said and did was pretty far from the paraphrase.

Perhaps Ieldra should have waited till they release full information on the wheel updates. But, you know, thing is, there's a slight chance there still at least slightly tweaking it now. If we wait till we have full information, then we can only discuss what we're getting. Then it really will have to be about DA 4 and what they do there. Honestly, I am not completely disregarding other fans' position. I'm not. But each side has to acknowledge here that the other has valid points. That's always where diplomacy begins.

There is a way for both sides to win. Everyone in this thread is looking for it. I wish when I picked the Diplomatic choice, I wouldn't be told I selected Aggressive instead.

[Sylvius the Mad]

While I have railed against the voiced protagonist for years, I have come to realise that it was actually the paraphrase that was the problem. The voice itself doesn't really matter.

The OP highlights an important deficiency in the paraphrase. While the writers can try to tell us as much as they can about what the corresponding full line does say, they're unable to give us any useful information about what that line doesn't say, and that's often the more important detail.

If the paraphrase more closely matches exactly what the spoken line is, perhaps this problem will be reduced somewhat, but it will never go away until we're allowed to see what we're choosing.

It's not the voice that matters. It's not the tone that matters. It's the words. The words matter. We need to see what the words are.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Meh. I just view the dialogue as a dice roll, seeing if I roll well and get what I want or botch and get what I dont want.

[Bail_Darilar]

I came in expecting a thread bashing dialogue wheels which imo are better than list choices but what I saw from the OP are valid reasons as to why paraphrasing needs to be sorted out. I completely agree. They really need to sort the paraphrasing out so that it better informs the reader of what they are saying or do it like someone else suggested like DXHR where what will be said or at least he first sentence is spelt out for you if you hovered over dialogue for a few seconds.