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[Sylvius the Mad]

I found that the paraphrase failed in nearly every instance. Every time I chose a dialogue option in DA2, Hawke said something I hadn't anticipated, and as such hadn't prepared a justification for.

It wasn't always something big, but it was always something. When a system's failure rate is 90%, that system needs to change.

[Sir JK]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I found that the paraphrase failed in nearly every instance. Every time I chose a dialogue option in DA2, Hawke said something I hadn't anticipated, and as such hadn't prepared a justification for.

It wasn't always something big, but it was always something. When a system's failure rate is 90%, that system needs to change.

While true... they can't change it just because it fails for you, Sylvius. If you're the only one that has it fail 90% of the time then it'd be a sign that perhaps it's not the system that's wrong after all.

Now, obviously more people has problems with it (and some of us don't) so there's clearly cause to at the very least improve upon it. But deciding that it needs to change because it virtually never works for you is a bit extreme.

Much like me stating that it doesn't need to change at all because it never fooled me would be a bit extreme.

Modifié par Sir JK, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but be states in this thread that he would try and link this discussion about the wheel in future talks about why they are sticking wih the paraphrase, why no hover over option would be possible and what is possibly on the table for clarity in DA:I.

http://social.biowar...9639/6#14567693

That was an excellent discussion at the time, but I've always been bothered by one aspect of David's remarks:

David Gaider wrote...

I get that some people feel they need all the information in order to make their dialogue choice-- and they feel that seeing the entire line displayed for them will give them that information. It won't. Or, I should say, it will... but it will break down just as often as paraphrases do. Which is to say not very often, but often enough that you remember the situations where that happens. The only way that wouldn't be the case is if we started writing player lines as if the PC weren't voiced, as in Origins.

Then that's what they should do.  Write the PC lines the same way they did when a silent protagonist.  Then they won't break the conversation gameplay.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:36 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

While true... they can't change it just because it fails for you, Sylvius. If you're the only one that has it fail 90% of the time then it'd be a sign that perhaps it's not the system that's wrong after all.

Now, obviously more people has problems with it (and some of us don't) so there's clearly cause to at the very least improve upon it. But deciding that it needs to change because it virtually never works for you is a bit extreme.

Much like me stating that it doesn't need to change at all because it never fooled me would be a bit extreme.

Improvement is change.

[TK514]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TK514 wrote...
Why is this being discussed, again, when BioWare has been and will continue to be unwavering in their stance on this subject?

This problem is brought up again because it bears repeating. Also, I thought I had something new to add to the debate. I was wrong, but it still bears repeating.

I apologize, Ieldra.  Today is just a bad day, and I shouldn't have posted.  We're all here to discuss, we have limited options of things we can talk about now, and at least this isn't another Mage, Elf or Romance thread.

[Sanunes]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Then that's what they should do.  Write the PC lines the same way they did when a silent protagonist.  Then they won't break the conversation gameplay.

I can't find the quote, but David Gaider has said in one of the Voiced versus Silent protagonist threads that its an either or situation because they require different writing styles.

[Rawgrim]

Being able to control what you character is saying is crucial to an rpg. Take that away, and the character isn`t really the players.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sanunes wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Then that's what they should do.  Write the PC lines the same way they did when a silent protagonist.  Then they won't break the conversation gameplay.

I can't find the quote, but David Gaider has said in one of the Voiced versus Silent protagonist threads that its an either or situation because they require different writing styles.

Obviously the style they use now for a voiced protagonist wouldn't work with a silent protagonist, but the silent protagonist style they used before should work just fine with a voiced protagonist.

Without any loss of player control.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rawgrim wrote...

Being able to control what you character is saying is crucial to an rpg. Take that away, and the character isn`t really the players.

Being able to choose dialogue options (something DA2 didn't allow) means that we can control what our character doesn't say.  This is important.

We don't get to say anything we like, but we do get to avoid character-breaking options.

[Enigmatick]

Honestly if it showed the whole line by default I'd skip it when the character speaks, having a line read back to me is annoying. Really the silent protagonist is the best option no matter how you spin it.

[Sir JK]

Enigmatick wrote...

Honestly if it showed the whole line by default I'd skip it when the character speaks, having a line read back to me is annoying. Really the silent protagonist is the best option no matter how you spin it.

I don't know about you, but cinematic dialogue with one character not speaking (but moving) would be a little weird to me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Enigmatick wrote...

Honestly if it showed the whole line by default I'd skip it when the character speaks, having a line read back to me is annoying. Really the silent protagonist is the best option no matter how you spin it.

I skip it when the character speaks even now.  I just read the subtitle and go.

Nothing about the cinematic performance matters, so I don't bother with it.  The only real benefit of having voiced characters at all is that I can tell who's speaking without having to look up from the subtitle.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

While I have railed against the voiced protagonist for years, I have come to realise that it was actually the paraphrase that was the problem. The voice itself doesn't really matter.

The OP highlights an important deficiency in the paraphrase. While the writers can try to tell us as much as they can about what the corresponding full line does say, they're unable to give us any useful information about what that line doesn't say, and that's often the more important detail.

If the paraphrase more closely matches exactly what the spoken line is, perhaps this problem will be reduced somewhat, but it will never go away until we're allowed to see what we're choosing.

It's not the voice that matters. It's not the tone that matters. It's the words. The words matter. We need to see what the words are.

The voiced protag has some of its drawbacks as well, let us not forget. Inflection and delivery alone can go a long way in changing how a line where the text (and even tone) is known, versus straight text, which can be interpretter by the player many ways. 

Also, let's not forget the more cinematic approach that a voiced protag requires. We are now talking about gestures, facial expressions, even outright grabbing/touching/assaulting NPCs without a clear level of knowledge that this will be happening. 

I think ink this pales in comparison to the paraphrases, but even if we did know every word ending said, there would still be volumes that we couldn't know/be aware of beforehand. 

[Ieldra]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Honestly if it showed the whole line by default I'd skip it when the character speaks, having a line read back to me is annoying. Really the silent protagonist is the best option no matter how you spin it.

I skip it when the character speaks even now.  I just read the subtitle and go.

Nothing about the cinematic performance matters, so I don't bother with it.  The only real benefit of having voiced characters at all is that I can tell who's speaking without having to look up from the subtitle.

So, you only pay attention to things that "matter"? In which way? I mean if the presentation means nothing to you, why don't you prefer text adventures?

Everything about a scene matters. Perhaps not for the plot itself, but for how it makes you feel within the world. It illustrates the world and the characters. I would skip most of DA2's combat if I could, but never any part of the dialogue scenes because there's where the story is.

I like the cinematic presentation. I just wish they didn't sacrifice so much player agency for it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2014 - 07:42 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Sir JK wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Honestly if it showed the whole line by default I'd skip it when the character speaks, having a line read back to me is annoying. Really the silent protagonist is the best option no matter how you spin it.

I don't know about you, but cinematic dialogue with one character not speaking (but moving) would be a little weird to me.

See, that never even remotely was a problem for me. Personal tastes and all of that... but it seems like something I never had a problem with is trying to be "solved" by something that is really wrecking my personal tastes to even playing the game at all. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 janvier 2014 - 07:49 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So, you only pay attention to things that "matter"? In which way? I mean if the presentation means nothing to you, why don't you prefer text adventures?

Everything about a scene matters. Perhaps not for the plot itself, but for how it makes you feel within the world. It illustrates the world and the characters. I would skip most of DA2's combat if I could, but never any part of the dialogue scenes because there's where the story is.

The story is in my character's decisions, and the cause for those decisions.  What the characters say matters.  I don't need to hear the lines read in order to know what the line is: the subtitle is right there.

The presentation of the scene doesn't matter because it's made for the wrong audience.  They shouldn't be trying to show me a scene - they should instead be giving me the tools to determine my character's opinions, rather than trying to influence mine.  It doesn't matter how I feel; it matters how my character feels.  Cinematic presentation only gets in the way of that.

[Sir JK]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

See, that never even remotely was a problem for me. Personal tastes and all of that... but it seems like something co never had a problem with is trying to be "solved" by something that is really wrecking my personal tastes to even playing the game at all. 

Ehm... You're confusing me a little here Fast Jimmy. Since as far as I know there's never been a fully cinematic game with a mute protagonist (unless the character was supposed to be mute). DAO is only partially cinematic, since the protagonist isn't actually animated in most conversations.

The post you quoted was a tounge-in-cheek reply to point out that a silent protagonist probably wouldn't work terribly well with how dialogue is presented in Biowares modern games. Mass Effect and DA2 with Shepard/Hawke being mute (but the game otherwise not changed to accomodate for this) would be a rather strange experience, me thinks.

This as a way to illustrate that there's more than just voice that came with the wheel and that going back to silence, would be a major shift in how they make games. Everyone is free to prefer that approach, of course. It's just that it's not a small thing. It's a major shift in presentation.
It's not so much a better version as another model entirely.

[Noctis Augustus]

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Modifié par Noctis Augustus, 28 janvier 2014 - 07:50 .

[Zanallen]

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim barely has a protagonist at all. There are no actual dialogue options in Skyrim.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

This as a way to illustrate that there's more than just voice that came with the wheel and that going back to silence, would be a major shift in how they make games. Everyone is free to prefer that approach, of course. It's just that it's not a small thing. It's a major shift in presentation.

The shift in gameplay is what concerns me.  The process of playing a character is now vastly different from what it was.

I don't care how the game is presented.  I just want to be able to implement my character design inside their story, like I could with BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO.

[Naesaki]

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim is succesful for its own reasons and DA series shouldn't need to mimic it and the Mods for the PC version are an absolutely massive selling point. Now I have over 1000 hours played Skyrim, but honestly I prefer the lore, story and gameplay of the Dragon Age series more. 

Skyrim may have more fun side things to do but I never feel really connected to the storyline or my character

[Noctis Augustus]

Zanallen wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim barely has a protagonist at all. There are no actual dialogue options in Skyrim.

Sarcasm? Or stupidity?

[Rotward]

At the very least, I hope they go the route of deus ex human revolution, and have the characters say what's written. It's not difficult. They can elaborate, but they should never, ever say something different than the option we pick.

That was my personal beef with DA2's voice acting. Hawke would say something unrelated, or opposing, my selection. 

Modifié par Rotward, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:11 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zanallen wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim barely has a protagonist at all.

Skyrim has the protagonist you create.  It can be whatever you'd like.

My last Skyrim character was a Nord girl who'd run away from home as a teenager, who'd then gone on to be a street urchin and then burglar in Cyrodiil.  At the start of the game, she was fleeing Cyrodiil and trying to return home to her parents in Riften.

There are no actual dialogue options in Skyrim.

What are you talking about?  Of course there are.

[Naesaki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

This as a way to illustrate that there's more than just voice that came with the wheel and that going back to silence, would be a major shift in how they make games. Everyone is free to prefer that approach, of course. It's just that it's not a small thing. It's a major shift in presentation.

The shift in gameplay is what concerns me.  The process of playing a character is now vastly different from what it was.

I don't care how the game is presented.  I just want to be able to implement my character design inside their story, like I could with BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO.

You are going to love Pillars of Eternity then it when it comes out, that sounds exactly what you are looking for. Bioware are moving in a different direction now when it comes to RPGs, if you want more the more "customise" your world experience, then Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 are right up your alley.