544 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Naesaki wrote...

Bioware are moving in a different direction now when it comes to RPGs

I would like them to tell us what that direction is.

Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2

Wasteland 2 looks spectacular.

I loved the original.

[Zanallen]

Noctis Augustus wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim barely has a protagonist at all. There are no actual dialogue options in Skyrim.

Sarcasm? Or stupidity?

How many dialogue options in Skyrim amount to more than investigation options or yes/no answers? The silent protagonist works great in Skyrim because you aren't actually saying anything important. Everyone else talks at you and you respond with yes, no or tell me more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot, and allow for the less dedicated players to more easily conenct to their character.

[Zanallen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot, and allow for the less dedicated players to more easily conenct to their character.

In other words, the same direction they have been moving in since at least KotOR. It has just been baby steps.

[Pasquale1234]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The voiced protag has some of its drawbacks as well, let us not forget. Inflection and delivery alone can go a long way in changing how a line where the text (and even tone) is known, versus straight text, which can be interpretter by the player many ways. 

Also, let's not forget the more cinematic approach that a voiced protag requires. We are now talking about gestures, facial expressions, even outright grabbing/touching/assaulting NPCs without a clear level of knowledge that this will be happening. 

I think ink this pales in comparison to the paraphrases, but even if we did know every word ending said, there would still be volumes that we couldn't know/be aware of beforehand. 

This is where it all breaks down for me, and the reason that I can't roleplay a voiced, animated protagonist.

It's interesting to see the various ways that certain terminology and buzzwords are interpreted and applied.  Apparently, ideas of role-playing and player agency are applied to decisions that impact the game world (save Amaranthine or the Keep), but are now withheld in favor in voicing and cinematics when it comes to deciding what sorts of personal characteristics and mannerisms the character may possess.

I can no longer choose the PC's personal mannerisms, gestures, personality, etc., as that is all dictated by VO and cinematic design.  I don't consider tones like diplomatic, snarky, aggressive to be definitive of personality, since every actual person I've ever met seems quite capable of taking on any of the tones in any given situation.  Every single character you try to play in a voiced, animated game will have the same voice, same type of delivery, mannerisms, and gesturing - exactly the same character imho, although you can have that character make some different decisions.

Another playthrough is essentially putting that same character into an AU.

What that means for me is that I would need to see a complete playthrough and all of the actual dialogue lines before I could attempt to plan a character concept that would not be broken in the first hour or so of play.  I don't expect I'll be wanting to go to that much trouble just to play a game.

So - I don't yet know whether I will try to play DAI - but if I do, it will be as a choose-your-own-adventure sort of thing, not as an RPG.

[Angarma]

Sir JK wrote...
There's no doubt that the paraphrases need to carry messages better. They even acknowledge that. Main characters should absolutely know their own minds, as you put it. It's just that a full sentence wouldn't accomplish nearly as much as we'd like to think it would.

Oh I'd seriously disagree, especially so.
Why? You wonder? Well, here's my reason:

I've been in an instance, within Star Wars: The Old Republic, where my initial character's
progress was interrupted by a single wrong choice of paraphase, which at first seemed ok
for my character's personality, but came out sounding completely different than expected.

This ruined immersion, killed my character's consistency (especially because it was the decider
in shaping my personality to a certain character) and since that Bioware game has no reload
system for people who accidentally choose the wrong answer in a conversation ending decision
(usually locking the line into place, making it non-cancellable), you're more or less stuck with it.

Which made me, because of my choice in gameplay style, have to delete thus character. Not only
wasting some few hours of time better well spent, but also making me vow to get into a pattern of
pre-reading all character responses- before choosing an option. That caused, in-effect, a lot of wasted
time better spent playing. Just so I wouldn't have to worry about my character becoming some mook's
enemy, which would neither be my intention, nor what I would have predisposed to think it'd be.

This tl;dr esque rant all boils down to the thought that full knowledge of each sentence matter is helpful at
points, to certain people- and provides better clarification. Hail, it certainly got me through weeks of content.
I'm sure if it didn't, I would have started many times over, eventually quiting the game in an OCD like frustration.

nightscrawl wrote...
As far as ninjamancing goes, you're
fortunate then. I'm going to suggest that most of the ninjamances, with
Leliana in particular, were from female players talking to her like a
close girlfriend, as I did. Then suddenly she starts talking about love
when that was something I never intended when talking about our
hair.

Everyone knows that women talking about their hair eventually leads to lesbian interaction between the two, pssh.

Modifié par Dodok, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:19 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot

Their attempts so far produce the opposite result.  I am less connected to the plot, because I have less interest in the protagonist, and less interest therefore in the protagonist's world.

I didn't care whether the reapers were stopped in Mass Effect.  I didn't care about anything at all that happened in Kirkwall.

[Naesaki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Naesaki wrote...

Bioware are moving in a different direction now when it comes to RPGs

I would like them to tell us what that direction is.

Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2

Wasteland 2 looks spectacular.

I loved the original.

I bought the early access on Steam and it so far its been great, really difficulty if you don't build a decent team with the right skills and stats

Has things like no using a sniper rifle at point blank range so you need to keep your sniper protected and in the back to make them useful, really got to utilise cover when possible to

[EmperorSahlertz]

Zanallen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot, and allow for the less dedicated players to more easily conenct to their character.

In other words, the same direction they have been moving in since at least KotOR. It has just been baby steps.

Indeed. I must say that I happen to agree with the direction BioWare is going, since I find myself with less and less patience to play a fully fledged cRPG. If I wanted to create my own character in a custom world, I would just play DnD. 

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:20 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Naesaki wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim is succesful for its own reasons and DA series shouldn't need to mimic it and the Mods for the PC version are an absolutely massive selling point. Now I have over 1000 hours played Skyrim, but honestly I prefer the lore, story and gameplay of the Dragon Age series more. 

Skyrim may have more fun side things to do but I never feel really connected to the storyline or my character

Mimic? You do realize that DAO had a silent protagonist right? And DA2 was practically a badly diguised copy of ME?

Great because, unlike my dragonborn, I never "felt connected" to the story and protagonist of DA2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zanallen wrote...

In other words, the same direction they have been moving in since at least KotOR. It has just been baby steps.

But they didn't break the roleplaying gameplay until later.  Nothing about KotOR made me change how I played.  Nothing about DAO made me change how I played.

[Jilinthar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The presentation of the scene doesn't matter because it's made for the wrong audience.  They shouldn't be trying to show me a scene - they should instead be giving me the tools to determine my character's opinions, rather than trying to influence mine.  It doesn't matter how I feel; it matters how my character feels.  Cinematic presentation only gets in the way of that.

I agree 100%, couldn't have said it better!

Actually to me, even the voice my character had for comments (in combat etc) in DA:O never really felt like it should or would need to be there. :/

[Naesaki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot

Their attempts so far produce the opposite result.  I am less connected to the plot, because I have less interest in the protagonist, and less interest therefore in the protagonist's world.

I didn't care whether the reapers were stopped in Mass Effect.  I didn't care about anything at all that happened in Kirkwall.

I was the complete opposite to this, when the protaganist is pre-defined and has their own ideals to an extent i get more connected, of course I love my silent protagonists to. tbh I like both mediums and don't really see a reason for disliking one or the other.

I like to be the "Player" (Origins, NWN, BG) and the "Observer/Guiding Force/Voice in the Head" (ME, DA II etc)

[Sir JK]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The shift in gameplay is what concerns me.  The process of playing a character is now vastly different from what it was.

I don't care how the game is presented.  I just want to be able to implement my character design inside their story, like I could with BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO.

I'd say that this is a very valid concern, and I can certainly sympathise. I suspect that the cinematic approach lends itself slightly better to Emerging characters*, the method I use when roleplaying, than other approaches. As such it fits me just fine, but I recognice that it's a fine line to walk even so.
It's more a suspicion than a theory, as I've not had enough experience with fully cinematic roleplaying games to tell for certain. There's not terribly many besides Bioware's games and The Witcher and both of those are fairly similar in that regard.

*For clarity: by Emerging character I mean the approach where the starting character is slightly fluid. A lot of how the character works is developed during play, rather than prior to it.

[Noctis Augustus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot

Their attempts so far produce the opposite result.  I am less connected to the plot, because I have less interest in the protagonist, and less interest therefore in the protagonist's world.

I didn't care whether the reapers were stopped in Mass Effect.  I didn't care about anything at all that happened in Kirkwall.

Ditto. Every single word.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

BioWare is going in the direction of a more defined main character and story, probably in an attempt to facilitate player connection to the main plot

Their attempts so far produce the opposite result.  I am less connected to the plot, because I have less interest in the protagonist, and less interest therefore in the protagonist's world.

I didn't care whether the reapers were stopped in Mass Effect.  I didn't care about anything at all that happened in Kirkwall.

Well, that may be true, but that is only your own opinion. I on the other hand, felt far more conencted to the story of ME, and couldn't care less about the DA storyline, even though I love the world they created for the purpose.
And consdiering the massive success that the Mass Effect trilogy has been, especially compared to the DA franchise, BioWare obviously wants to emulate that and translate what they can from ME to DA, storytellign and character defination amongst that.
I can understand why some old schoolers would disagree with the direction, but BioWare has to take care of tehir own interests first.

[JamieCOTC]

The paraphrasing system is far from perfect, but while playing The Witcher some lines both were spoken and fully displayed in some cases. This bugged me to know end. I do believe I would go mad if I had to play 30 hours w/ a dialogue system like this. To be fair, this is my own opinion and I understand the why some people would want the lines both presented and spoken. I simply don't prefer it. Frankly, I feel DA works better w/ a silent protagonist, but that ship has unfortunately sailed.

[Zanallen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But they didn't break the roleplaying gameplay until later.  Nothing about KotOR made me change how I played.  Nothing about DAO made me change how I played.

Like I said, baby steps. They move further and further away from the days of BG with each game. DAO was an odd throwback, most likely because of the extra long development time.

[Naesaki]

Noctis Augustus wrote...


Mimic? You do realize that DAO had a silent protagonist right? And DA2 was practically a badly diguised copy of ME?

Great because, unlike my dragonborn, I never "felt connected" to the story and protagonist of DA2.

Yes i'm well aware and i'm not so petty to go oh DA II....ME clone with swords and magic herp derp....and I was very connected to my warden in Origins but the whole thing comes across differently than Skyrim's conversations

[Noctis Augustus]

Zanallen wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...

I don't understand why they defend voiced protagonists so badly. Skyrim was much more successful than DAO and DA2 combined and it had a silent protagonist. And that game was incredibly oversimplified to pander to the non-RPG players.

Skyrim barely has a protagonist at all. There are no actual dialogue options in Skyrim.

Sarcasm? Or stupidity?

How many dialogue options in Skyrim amount to more than investigation options or yes/no answers? The silent protagonist works great in Skyrim because you aren't actually saying anything important. Everyone else talks at you and you respond with yes, no or tell me more.

I disagree, I certainly do remember the dragonborn saying more than that.

Modifié par Noctis Augustus, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:26 .

[Ieldra]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So, you only pay attention to things that "matter"? In which way? I mean if the presentation means nothing to you, why don't you prefer text adventures?

Everything about a scene matters. Perhaps not for the plot itself, but for how it makes you feel within the world. It illustrates the world and the characters. I would skip most of DA2's combat if I could, but never any part of the dialogue scenes because there's where the story is.

The story is in my character's decisions, and the cause for those decisions.  What the characters say matters.  I don't need to hear the lines read in order to know what the line is: the subtitle is right there.

The presentation of the scene doesn't matter because it's made for the wrong audience.  They shouldn't be trying to show me a scene - they should instead be giving me the tools to determine my character's opinions, rather than trying to influence mine.  It doesn't matter how I feel; it matters how my character feels.  Cinematic presentation only gets in the way of that.

You don't *need* the spoken line, ok, but don't you *want* it? If the character says what you want, would you not prefer to hear it instead of only reading it, because that way it's all more real?

As for what you feel doesn't matter, please think again: are you sure? Because stories work because they trigger certain emotions. You're not *only* playing a game here where you make emotionally detached decisions about constructing a story for your character. You're not just setting there, saying "hmm...now my character would feel this or that, or perhaps something else is more appropriate". Yes, such situations do come up because your character isn't you, but I find it hard to imagine that you do that exclusively and don't care at all about how the story makes *you* feel. That would be a rather mechanistic approach to roleplaying.  

[Zanallen]

Noctis Augustus wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

How many dialogue options in Skyrim amount to more than investigation options or yes/no answers? The silent protagonist works great in Skyrim because you aren't actually saying anything important. Everyone else talks at you and you respond with yes, no or tell me more.

I disagree, I certainly do remember the dragonborn saying more than that.

Are you sure you are remembering it and not just attributing your own head canon into the choices being offered? I played a lot of Skyrim, and the vast, vast majority of dialogue was one of those three options (Primarily investigate).

[Fast Jimmy]

You don't *need* the spoken line, ok, but don't you *want* it? If the character says what you want, would you not prefer to hear it instead of only reading it, because that way it's all more real?

LOL This is a funny thing to say to Sylvius. His perception of reality is... skeptical, let us say.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Jilinthar wrote...

Actually to me, even the voice my character had for comments (in combat etc) in DA:O never really felt like it should or would need to be there. :/

I completely agree.

Sir JK wrote...

I'd say that this is a very valid concern, and I can certainly sympathise. I suspect that the cinematic approach lends itself slightly better to Emerging characters*, the method I use when roleplaying, than other approaches. As such it fits me just fine, but I recognice that it's a fine line to walk even so.
It's more a suspicion than a theory, as I've not had enough experience with fully cinematic roleplaying games to tell for certain. There's not terribly many besides Bioware's games and The Witcher and both of those are fairly similar in that regard.

*For clarity: by Emerging character I mean the approach where the starting character is slightly fluid. A lot of how the character works is developed during play, rather than prior to it.

My characters can and do change during the game, but they are fully fleshed-out characters at the start.

For example, I played a character who had very little confidence at the start of DAO, and never made decisions himself if he could avoid it.  But in the Fade, he was alone, and thus he couldn't avoid it.  This gave him the confidence to take action, but a lifetime of not doing that deprived him of the experience he needed to make good decisions, so he did a lot of stupid, petty things, and then Sten killed him.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:32 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Naesaki wrote...

Noctis Augustus wrote...


Mimic? You do realize that DAO had a silent protagonist right? And DA2 was practically a badly diguised copy of ME?

Great because, unlike my dragonborn, I never "felt connected" to the story and protagonist of DA2.

Yes i'm well aware and i'm not so petty to go oh DA II....ME clone with swords and magic herp derp....and I was very connected to my warden in Origins but the whole thing comes across differently than Skyrim's conversations

That's because DAO had more interactivity. Skyrim's dialogue was simplistic (like the whole game itself...), but that doesn't mean it had only yes, no and inquisitive options.