642 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

EJ107 wrote...

I'd argue that recruiting Loghain, having him kill the archdemon and then having Alistair marry Anora is the "happiest" possible outcome in Origins. Sure Alistair doesn't particularly like you anymore, but everyone you care about survives and there is no baby with the soul of an old god to potentially threaten the world.

Conversely, there is no preserved and purified soul of an ancient and possibly beneficial being, given how some of the books paint dragons as being part of the balance and life of the world.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:09 .

[Luiren]

EJ107 wrote...

I'd argue that recruiting Loghain, having him kill the archdemon and then having Alistair marry Anora is the "happiest" possible outcome in Origins. Sure Alistair doesn't particularly like you anymore, but everyone you care about survives and there is no baby with the soul of an old god to potentially threaten the world.

True, but then that traitor Loghain gets to be a martyr.....and I can't allow that.

[Neon Rising Winter]

The last few comments illustrates what's nice about DAO and what puts me off the idea of having to have one set type of ending. Different people see different things in the endings, they're all broadly plausible, and they're not tied down to 'this is the good ending', 'this is the tragic ending'. One person's tragedy is another's glorious victory, one person's ominous decision is another's beacon of hope.

[Dave of Canada]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd have to see how that would be implemented, but that sounds like very little consequence. A side quest/War Asset. Nothing more.

Hypothetically speaking, it would come down to how war assets come into play. For example, the massacre could limit what you'd down the line, culminating in escalating costs which ultimately prevent the player from achieving things which they'd want.

We've seen the "agents" system, what if the Old God baby further restricted the amount of "agents" and cost you the option from picking certain alternatives which the player would've prefered, meanwhile the player who took the Ultimate Sacrifice may have those options open, they lose access to some "Old God"-specific content.

Old God baby results in massacre (think Ostagar) > lose assets > can't save keep > people die > morale is low
Old God baby never existed > save assets > save keep > people are saved > morale is high

In exchange,  those who kept the Old God baby alive would profit from having both Wardens alive which could result in variations of other scenes, having Loghain around could result in Orlesian/Ferelden hostilities increasing or a Drunken Alistair prompts a Ferelden civil war.

To have the benefit of keeping your Warden alive, an old god baby on your side and Alistair/Loghain without ANY drawbacks would be a serious slap in the face to those who had done the Ultimate Sacrifice.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:21 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Narrow Margin wrote...

The last few comments illustrates what's nice about DAO and what puts me off the idea of having to have one set type of ending. Different people see different things in the endings, they're all broadly plausible, and they're not tied down to 'this is the good ending', 'this is the tragic ending'. One person's tragedy is another's glorious victory, one person's ominous decision is another's beacon of hope.

Agreed. DA:O didn't do everything perfect, but its ending sequence, from the Landsmeet until the credits roll, should be taught in game design schools across the world. It doesn't execute flawlessly, but what it does it does AMAZINGLY well. I've written diatribes on it before - I won't do so again since I'm trying to catch up on a ton of work - but suffice to say, it is genius without even possibly realizing its genius.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd have to see how that would be implemented, but that sounds like very little consequence. A side quest/War Asset. Nothing more.

Hypothetically speaking, it would come down to how war assets come into play. For example, the massacre could limit what you'd down the line, culminating in escalating costs which ultimately prevent the player from achieving things which they'd want.

We've seen the "agents" system, what if the Old God baby further restricted the amount of "agents" and cost you the option from picking certain alternatives which the player would've prefered, meanwhile the player who took the Ultimate Sacrifice may have those options open, they lose access to some "Old God"-specific content.

Old God baby results in massacre (think Ostagar) > lose assets > can't save keep > people die > morale is low
Old God baby never existed > save assets > save keep > people are saved > morale is high

In exchange,  those who kept the Old God baby alive would profit from having both Wardens alive which could result in variations of other scenes, having Loghain around could result in Orlesian/Ferelden hostilities increasing or a Drunken Alistair prompts a Ferelden civil war.

To have the benefit of keeping your Warden alive, an old god baby on your side and Alistair/Loghain without ANY drawbacks would be a serious slap in the face to those who had done the Ultimate Sacrifice.

So would having all of that result in War Assets that ultimately amount to fifteen minutes of MP. So I'm not convinced nor been shown evidence that Bioware knows any better at this point.

[Dave of Canada]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So would having all of that result in War Assets that ultimately amount to fifteen minutes of MP. So I'm not convinced nor been shown evidence that Bioware knows any better at this point.

Maybe I'm just too idealistic to think they wouldn't repeat ME3's "asset" system, the agent system sounds interesting but I don't know enough to offer my full input on that.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So would having all of that result in War Assets that ultimately amount to fifteen minutes of MP. So I'm not convinced nor been shown evidence that Bioware knows any better at this point.

Maybe I'm just too idealistic to think they wouldn't repeat ME3's "asset" system, the agent system sounds interesting but I don't know enough to offer my full input on that.

I was idealistic enough to think that after DA2 and all the criticism its Third Act received for being a poorly rushed, hamshackled, ambiguos and confusing ending that Bioware would learn their lesson and not push their very next game out the door with a poorly rushed, hamshackeled, ambiguos and confusing ending.

I have little faith in Bioware's ability to fix their mistakes recently. Mostly because nearly every conversation about their mistakes that I see is them saying they didn't make mistakes.

EDIT: I can never tell if I spell ambiguos correctly.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:34 .

[Enigmatick]

Ambiguous*

[Knight of Dane]

Ambigousilousios*

[Fast Jimmy]

Enigmatick wrote...

Ambiguous*

It just seems like there's too many u's in there. But that's English for you!

[LPPrince]

I don't have faith in Bioware changing the mistakes they've made since Awakening.

Sad to say. So I'm with you Jimmy, insofar as the endings and such go.

[themikefest]

I wouldn't mind a tragic ending, as long as I can have everything from a worst ending to the best ending as well

[Martyr1777]

LPPrince wrote...

I'm sick of Bioware's tragic endings. DA2's was bad enough just quality wise, but ME3 was so out of left field that it ruined my taste for it.

I want happy endings now. It makes sense for tragedy in something like The Walking Dead Telltale episodes, but I don't expect nor want to be forced into a sad ending in a Dragon Age.

Come on... those endings weren't bad because they were tragic ones. They were just terribly writen.

A world of difference right there.

[Fast Jimmy]

Martyr1777 wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm sick of Bioware's tragic endings. DA2's was bad enough just quality wise, but ME3 was so out of left field that it ruined my taste for it.

I want happy endings now. It makes sense for tragedy in something like The Walking Dead Telltale episodes, but I don't expect nor want to be forced into a sad ending in a Dragon Age.

Come on... those endings weren't bad because they were tragic ones. They were just terribly writen.

A world of difference right there.

That's why it might be best to A) give options, that way people can feel like not ALL outcomes are badly written and have at least one path to (relative) rainbows and sunshine, simply because happy endings that are poorly written are better received than tragic endings that are poorly written.

[slimgrin]

What matters is the content leading up to a proper ending, tragic or otherwise. In ME3, it was like they hired Billy Graham to write his version of Mass Effect. Hopefully they've moved on from this.

Modifié par slimgrin, 31 janvier 2014 - 02:19 .

[Dominus]

My answer is the same as always. Taken from CrustyBot earlier in the topic:

I think well-written endings are more important, personally. Also, endings that feel like a culmination of your choices are good, since it's an RPG. As for tragic endings in games, I heard that Planet Escape: Tournament game is pretty well liked.

Saying one type of ending and another type of ending is inherently better than the other seems odd to me. I want an ending that fits coherently with the rest of the storyline, tragic or no. That's all there is for me. ME3 and DA2 had tragic endings, but were poorly recieved for different reasons than "because it's tragic".

[Martyr1777]

LPPrince wrote...

Exactly. If I would've known back before Mass 1 that the end of the trilogy was gonna be my character's forced death, and not just that but my character that didn't really look like my character because they couldn't import his face so I was forced to use Vandershep, then I would have never bothered. That was the worst because it was years and hundreds of dollars put into it by me for an ending I never asked for(insert Jensen joke).

If I knew DA2 was gonna end the way it did, yet again- would not have bothered.

If I'm given the choice to create a character, possibly formulate a backstory for them, or at least have enough power to make them truly feel like my own creation, I want them to have their cake and eat it too, or at least feel that way, even if you could argue otherwise.

I liked that about Kingdoms of Amalur. Game ends and there's no forced death, no forced sacrifice, nothing like that. Goal is accomplished and yay, keep playing. Skyrim, same deal. Was much happier with those two games than I was with Mass 3 and DA2, the endings being partly why.

ME and DA aren't sandbox RPGs. You aren't totally creating your character. You are in fact putting little touches onto Bioware characters. Even DAO which you had the most to work with much was preconceived. People need to stop acting like they are creating all this and understand it about the WHOLE   experience not just your character.

That being said, less variable endings like ME3 are FAR inferior to DAOs ending style.

[Maria Caliban]

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

That said, I'm not sure 'the hero saves the world but dies' is a tragic ending.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:12 .

[Martyr1777]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

Hard to call it literature, but if you like realistic in you face action full of tragedy,  especilly sci-fi, look up the Gaunt's Ghosts series. 40K based military action drama and I think the hardest books to put down that I've ever seen.

I think game developers could learn a great deal about what would make a gripping story from such works. Bioware is the closest by far at the moment because one of the main draws for those books is the character design and development over the series. That is why I'm here waiting for DAI after ME3 and DA2. None does better characters then bioware. Not that I seen anyway.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:17 .

[Demx]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

That said, I'm not sure 'the hero saves the world but dies' is a tragic ending.

How about the hero's old friend turns out to be the final encounter. I was going to say lover, but too many people can be that. 

It's probably a trope but it could work. 

[ghost_ronin]

Only if it is a result of your choices. *glares at ME3 on the shelf*