642 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

You are forgetting metagaming allow people not only to control the characters, but also how the wolrd around them goes.

Which is why I want no "happy" choices, only shades of unhappy and you choose which one you pick. Let those who want their power fantasy find it elsewhere.

Agreeded.

So question - are you of the group who feels only your ending choices should be used?  

No other options, just depressing and sad, watch your loved one die, die yourself, die everyone because life can suck, loved ones do die and video games should reflect this?  

Most of us, there is always an exception, want a number of ending options, to play the game many times, checking out the options.   I don't want every ending to be "happy" any more than I want every ending to be "depressing".  Though I will say out loud (while I'm sitting her typing this and my husband ask what?) I would not buy a game with just a depressing ending and I would buy one that just gave me the happy one.  But I'd rather have both.

Even if it's just two endings, I want a - survived with lover and some friends - and an ending  - where either my character or lover or friends don't survive the game.  I don't want to deprive the doomsayers their ending and I will never understand someone who wants to deprive others of a joyful we survived ending.  

Now if BW decide to just do one ending, if it's depressing you can buy the depressing game and I'll go back to playing Jade Empire.  if it's joyful we survived the odds, I'll buy it and you can do what ever you want.  But again, I'd rather they have both and they could sell it to both of us.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Tragic endings does not necessarily involve death of the PC, companions or even important NPCs. There are many different ways to create a tragic ending.

The trick to a good tragic ending is that it should be bittersweet. It should leave you sad at the outcome, but also offer hope and resolution to the story.

Now having a forced tragic ending is not something I am a huge fan of (unless it fits the game, like The Walking Dead). But having a tragic event forced upon us before the end, is something I am a huge fan of.
That being said, I also wish that of all the endings we will have available, none of them are "happy and all is good" endings. If they can give us a selection of different outcomes, that aren't quite as bleak as ME3's, then I am all for that.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 31 janvier 2014 - 02:03 .

[mopotter]

Mr.House wrote...

And when it turns out the old god baby will attack the world, is it still a happy ending?

I don't play just one game and I don't repeat the same ending over and over and over.  I like the endings in DA:O and I can get a "Happy" ending when i want one.  I can get the tragic ending when I want one.  I can do the DR or I don't have to do the DR and I can still get the "Happy" ending.  

Alistair marries Anora; Loghan joins the wardens and kills the archdemon; my warden go off for future adventures.
Alistair kills the archdemon; warden becomes the 1st elven Bann with Leliana by her side; or warden and Zev go wander around.

As for as the old god baby goes, in the games I did the DR, I liked Morrigan and think she will turn out to be a fairly good mom causing the god child to be one who helps humanity.  In the games I didn't trust her, I didn't do the DR.

I LOVE options and choices and more than one ending scenario.  Chrono Trigger '95 was the very first game I had this more than one ending story and found it good.

[mopotter]

EJ107 wrote...

I'd argue that recruiting Loghain, having him kill the archdemon and then having Alistair marry Anora is the "happiest" possible outcome in Origins. Sure Alistair doesn't particularly like you anymore, but everyone you care about survives and there is no baby with the soul of an old god to potentially threaten the world.

Alistair was mad at my Warden until it was over and then said he understood and agreed it was the right thing to do.  We were best friends.  So for me, this is definitely one of the happier endings.

[mopotter]

Narrow Margin wrote...

The last few comments illustrates what's nice about DAO and what puts me off the idea of having to have one set type of ending. Different people see different things in the endings, they're all broadly plausible, and they're not tied down to 'this is the good ending', 'this is the tragic ending'. One person's tragedy is another's glorious victory, one person's ominous decision is another's beacon of hope.

Exactly.

[mopotter]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

Ambiguous*

It just seems like there's too many u's in there. But that's English for you!

I can't spell.  I was taught with phonics and I spell things the way they sound.  I have a 2nd window open and google often.  Sometimes I'll have to try a couple of spelling options but eventually good ol google will come through and give me the correct spelling.  But it takes me a lot longer to write something which is a pain.

[Hiemoth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

That said, I'm not sure 'the hero saves the world but dies' is a tragic ending.

I fully agree with both of your sentiments. I would argue that DA2 had a tragic ending, but DAO's ending was bittersweet at best, and even that is kind of stretching it in some endings.

[randomcheeses]

Tragic endings?
I'm tired of them at the moment, personally. However, if there's a choice between getting a 'happy' ending and getting a 'tragic' ending, and endings that are several shades in between, then I'm not going to automatically go for the 'happy' ending all the time. Sometimes I will, but sometimes I'll play like I did in ME2 when I killed as many squad-mates as possible. Because I like to roleplay.

(That particular Shepard was a traumatised wreck who utterly screwed up everything she touched)

But I think the option of getting a nearly 100% happy ending should be there so that people don't feel railroaded into a depressing ending. Variety is the spice of life etc.

Modifié par randomcheeses, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:36 .

[mopotter]

Siradix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

That said, I'm not sure 'the hero saves the world but dies' is a tragic ending.

How about the hero's old friend turns out to be the final encounter. I was going to say lover, but too many people can be that. 

It's probably a trope but it could work. 

Have  you played Jade Empire?  

[Hiemoth]

mopotter wrote...

So question - are you of the group who feels only your ending choices should be used?  

No other options, just depressing and sad, watch your loved one die, die yourself, die everyone because life can suck, loved ones do die and video games should reflect this?  

Most of us, there is always an exception, want a number of ending options, to play the game many times, checking out the options.   I don't want every ending to be "happy" any more than I want every ending to be "depressing".  Though I will say out loud (while I'm sitting her typing this and my husband ask what?) I would not buy a game with just a depressing ending and I would buy one that just gave me the happy one.  But I'd rather have both.

Even if it's just two endings, I want a - survived with lover and some friends - and an ending  - where either my character or lover or friends don't survive the game.  I don't want to deprive the doomsayers their ending and I will never understand someone who wants to deprive others of a joyful we survived ending.  

Now if BW decide to just do one ending, if it's depressing you can buy the depressing game and I'll go back to playing Jade Empire.  if it's joyful we survived the odds, I'll buy it and you can do what ever you want.  But again, I'd rather they have both and they could sell it to both of us.

Althought the question was not directed at me, I hope you do not mind if I take a stab at answering it. Also, my writings only reflect my own opinions, as I do not have any ability to speak for any group of people on their preferences.

I doubt majority of those arguing for a bittersweet, or possible tragic, ending would could guilt you on wanting a happy ending or speaking about wishing that in a game. That is the kind of endings you like and of course you should be proactive in pushing them. The problem with your argument comes when you claim that your solution is allowing for both groups while the other side doesn't. The issue here is that your suggestion, or the allusion to all those possible choices, were to provide all those outcomes for all types of players, as it kind of misses the point about bittersweet endings.

The moment there is a way to avoid those sacrifices and prices associated a bittesweet ending by just making some different choices, it is no longer a bittersweet ending, but rather a failed ending due to the player not just really trying enough. And if the player actively chooses to have an ending where some characters die and some thins are lost, then it really isn't a bittersweet ending either, as that was the outcome the player wanted. That robs the ending and those sacrifices a lot of power, as that one character throwing himself at the enemies to slow them down really didn't need to do that or those valiant mages giving their lives to seal the demon away really didn't need to do that either. Their sacrifices were not the necessary price of victory, but rather wasted lives do to player laziness.

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending for ones game and pushing for it. However, framing the discussion in the terms that you want everyone to have what they wanted while the other side just wants to rob you off your enjoyment isn't helpful for the discussion on any side. Again, by the way, my opinions only.

[Iakus]

Hiemoth wrote...

The moment there is a way to avoid those sacrifices and prices associated a bittesweet ending by just making some different choices, it is no longer a bittersweet ending, but rather a failed ending due to the player not just really trying enough. And if the player actively chooses to have an ending where some characters die and some thins are lost, then it really isn't a bittersweet ending either, as that was the outcome the player wanted. That robs the ending and those sacrifices a lot of power, as that one character throwing himself at the enemies to slow them down really didn't need to do that or those valiant mages giving their lives to seal the demon away really didn't need to do that either. Their sacrifices were not the necessary price of victory, but rather wasted lives do to player laziness.

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending for ones game and pushing for it. However, framing the discussion in the terms that you want everyone to have what they wanted while the other side just wants to rob you off your enjoyment isn't helpful for the discussion on any side. Again, by the way, my opinions only.

What is a bittersweet or tragic ending but the hero choosing the "wrong" path?  Or a character flaw that gets exploited.

The entire second half of Hamlet could have been avoided if he'd just killed Claudius while he had the chance.

If you like happy endings, you should be able to roleplay a happy ending.  If you like tragic/bittersweet endings, you should be able to do that too.  But railroading them in a choice-based game just defeats the purpose of giving the players choice.

[TheChris92]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The ending should have the main character boarding a train to leave while all his/her friends and family watch them leave, a photo of the group can be seen afterwards and everyone will be pleased because it's happy and sad at the same time.

Maybe an epilogue where the main character comes back for a week to hang out with the gang again? Maybe have a party, too?

This sounds like an ending I could get behind. Somebody fund it!

Modifié par TheChris92, 31 janvier 2014 - 06:24 .

[Mr.House]

TheChris92 wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The ending should have the main character boarding a train to leave while all his/her friends and family watch them leave, a photo of the group can be seen afterwards and everyone will be pleased because it's happy and sad at the same time.

Maybe an epilogue where the main character comes back for a week to hang out with the gang again? Maybe have a party, too?

This sounds like an ending I could get behind. Somebody fund it!

[JCAP]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The ending should have the main character boarding a train to leave while all his/her friends and family watch them leave, a photo of the group can be seen afterwards and everyone will be pleased because it's happy and sad at the same time.

Maybe an epilogue where the main character comes back for a week to hang out with the gang again? Maybe have a party, too?

So, basically Citadel DLC?

[Hiemoth]

iakus wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

The moment there is a way to avoid those sacrifices and prices associated a bittesweet ending by just making some different choices, it is no longer a bittersweet ending, but rather a failed ending due to the player not just really trying enough. And if the player actively chooses to have an ending where some characters die and some thins are lost, then it really isn't a bittersweet ending either, as that was the outcome the player wanted. That robs the ending and those sacrifices a lot of power, as that one character throwing himself at the enemies to slow them down really didn't need to do that or those valiant mages giving their lives to seal the demon away really didn't need to do that either. Their sacrifices were not the necessary price of victory, but rather wasted lives do to player laziness.

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending for ones game and pushing for it. However, framing the discussion in the terms that you want everyone to have what they wanted while the other side just wants to rob you off your enjoyment isn't helpful for the discussion on any side. Again, by the way, my opinions only.

What is a bittersweet or tragic ending but the hero choosing the "wrong" path?  Or a character flaw that gets exploited.

The entire second half of Hamlet could have been avoided if he'd just killed Claudius while he had the chance.

If you like happy endings, you should be able to roleplay a happy ending.  If you like tragic/bittersweet endings, you should be able to do that too.  But railroading them in a choice-based game just defeats the purpose of giving the players choice.

There are so many approaches to that response that I am quite torn which one to choose, not starting with the massive simplication of Hamlet to make a really weird point.

I guess I do not really know what is the answer you are looking for as I explained in the very section you copied in the reply why I felt that you cannot have an optional happy ending and a bittersweet ending in the same game. To repeat my explanation, it robs the meaning of those sacrifices. You don't have to like that, it isn't supposed to make you change your mind, that is simply an effort to explain why I think those two things cannot co-exist. Also, I am asking not frame the discussion constantly how the other side is trying to rob you of an experience while you would allow all the options, as it is simply not true.

Yes, it is a choice based game, but it is still has a limited amount of choices. No matter how you play, at the end of DAO you are at the roof of the palace fighting the Archdemon, at the end of ME1 you are at the heart of the Citadel fighting Saren, etc. There is a story to be told, which has been built around some theme. So claiming being forced to do something at the end of the game is unacceptable in such a game is kind of weird, as in all cases your character is in a forced situation.

And finally, yeah, heroes can have flaws. I guess that question could be reversed in that why do you think you have to play a flawless hero who can reach the best ending? And in that case, how would your hero not be an objectively better hero than those heroes who reach a sub-optimal ending? After all, your hero managed to be so untouched by human frailties and flaws that s/he managed to reach an ending where everything was solved for the best. How does that not rob the emotional impact made by other heroes in the exactly the same end scenarios?

[Demx]

mopotter wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Tragic endings can be beautiful and resonant things. I wish more popular literature utilized them.

That said, I'm not sure 'the hero saves the world but dies' is a tragic ending.

How about the hero's old friend turns out to be the final encounter. I was going to say lover, but too many people can be that. 

It's probably a trope but it could work. 

Have  you played Jade Empire?  

Nope. 

[Iakus]

Hiemoth wrote...

I guess I do not really know what is the answer you are looking for as I explained in the very section you copied in the reply why I felt that you cannot have an optional happy ending and a bittersweet ending in the same game. To repeat my explanation, it robs the meaning of those sacrifices. You don't have to like that, it isn't supposed to make you change your mind, that is simply an effort to explain why I think those two things cannot co-exist. Also, I am asking not frame the discussion constantly how the other side is trying to rob you of an experience while you would allow all the options, as it is simply not true.

That's what I don't understand.  Why does having a happier option rob meaning from the sadder option?  Unless you are completely metagaming the story where the protagonist automatically knows all possible outcomes, what difference does it make if there are other options available?

Yes, it is a choice based game, but it is still has a limited amount of choices. No matter how you play, at the end of DAO you are at the roof of the palace fighting the Archdemon, at the end of ME1 you are at the heart of the Citadel fighting Saren, etc. There is a story to be told, which has been built around some theme. So claiming being forced to do something at the end of the game is unacceptable in such a game is kind of weird, as in all cases your character is in a forced situation.

How does the fact that computer games are already inherently limited justify limiting the game still further?

And finally, yeah, heroes can have flaws. I guess that question could be reversed in that why do you think you have to play a flawless hero who can reach the best ending? And in that case, how would your hero not be an objectively better hero than those heroes who reach a sub-optimal ending? After all, your hero managed to be so untouched by human frailties and flaws that s/he managed to reach an ending where everything was solved for the best. How does that not rob the emotional impact made by other heroes in the exactly the same end scenarios?

It's not a matter of "having to play" a character.  It's a matter of "having the option to play" such a character.  Or even varying degrees of characters.

It's not about being an objectively better or worse hero.  It's about being different kinds of heroes and telling different kinds of stories.

Some heroes have more or worse flaws than others.  Some flawed heroes can overcome thier weaknesses while others are consumed by them.  

How does the existence of Captain America  rob the emotional impact of Punisher?

Modifié par iakus, 31 janvier 2014 - 08:47 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

I guess I do not really know what is the answer you are looking for as I explained in the very section you copied in the reply why I felt that you cannot have an optional happy ending and a bittersweet ending in the same game. To repeat my explanation, it robs the meaning of those sacrifices. You don't have to like that, it isn't supposed to make you change your mind, that is simply an effort to explain why I think those two things cannot co-exist. Also, I am asking not frame the discussion constantly how the other side is trying to rob you of an experience while you would allow all the options, as it is simply not true.

That's what I don't understand.  Why does having a happier option rob meaning from the sadder option?  Unless you are completely metagaming the story where the protagonist automatically knows all possible outcomes, what difference does it make if there are other options available?

Any philosophical thought experiment makes that abundantly clear.

Ask someone if it's better to let five people die or to intentionally kill one person. Now insert a magic button which lets the person save everyone. Said thought experiment becomes bland and uninteresting. It's the same basic concept behind why the Redcliffe scenario sucks due to the mages solution or how the Virmire situation would seem pointless if the player could save Kaidan and Ashley. Or how moronic the "Master Li wins" ending to Jade Empire is.

That goes for any playthrough.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2014 - 09:48 .

[Martyr1777]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Tragic endings does not necessarily involve death of the PC, companions or even important NPCs. There are many different ways to create a tragic ending.

The trick to a good tragic ending is that it should be bittersweet. It should leave you sad at the outcome, but also offer hope and resolution to the story.

Now having a forced tragic ending is not something I am a huge fan of (unless it fits the game, like The Walking Dead). But having a tragic event forced upon us before the end, is something I am a huge fan of.
That being said, I also wish that of all the endings we will have available, none of them are "happy and all is good" endings. If they can give us a selection of different outcomes, that aren't quite as bleak as ME3's, then I am all for that.

Agreed... the ending to Stolen Throne is actually a perfect example, people die in the start and middle. Noone dies in the end but the end is by far the most tragic part of the whole thing.

While i said earlier I want tragic endings I never meant exclusively, to be clear. Variety is always a good thing, but just don't want a variety of 'lighter' endings.

[Martyr1777]

iakus wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

The moment there is a way to avoid those sacrifices and prices associated a bittesweet ending by just making some different choices, it is no longer a bittersweet ending, but rather a failed ending due to the player not just really trying enough. And if the player actively chooses to have an ending where some characters die and some thins are lost, then it really isn't a bittersweet ending either, as that was the outcome the player wanted. That robs the ending and those sacrifices a lot of power, as that one character throwing himself at the enemies to slow them down really didn't need to do that or those valiant mages giving their lives to seal the demon away really didn't need to do that either. Their sacrifices were not the necessary price of victory, but rather wasted lives do to player laziness.

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with wanting a happy ending for ones game and pushing for it. However, framing the discussion in the terms that you want everyone to have what they wanted while the other side just wants to rob you off your enjoyment isn't helpful for the discussion on any side. Again, by the way, my opinions only.

What is a bittersweet or tragic ending but the hero choosing the "wrong" path?  Or a character flaw that gets exploited.

The entire second half of Hamlet could have been avoided if he'd just killed Claudius while he had the chance.

If you like happy endings, you should be able to roleplay a happy ending.  If you like tragic/bittersweet endings, you should be able to do that too.  But railroading them in a choice-based game just defeats the purpose of giving the players choice.

You have a point but at the same time you can't make it so easy to get the 'happy' ending that you inadvertantly get it when you weren't 'trying' to.

Going back to ME2 again, I was all excited for the 'suicide' mission. But since I wanted to see all the companion stories I of course do all the loyalty missions. Then I get to the final mission and make a couple very simple common sense choices and... *poof* pink bunnys and rainbows everywhere. Really the same is true for DAO, if you complete all the army quests and don't actively put effort into being negative you get the pink bunnies again. DAO though does have the heroic sacrifice or OGB, which is a little more grey the ME2 at least but still.

[Mistic]

One of the things that have been left out about tragedies is the sense of doom.

Ancient Greeks were the masters at tragedies, but there's something about their stories few people remember: that they were based on mythology or history, so the educated audience knew from the beginning the story wouldn't end well. Doomed by canon, so to speak.

I think they tried to do something with that feeling in DAII, with Varric telling the story from a point in the future, but it didn't work very well, sadly, although it was promising.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr.House wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Which is why I want no "happy" choices, only shades of unhappy and you choose which one you pick. Let those who want their power fantasy find it elsewhere.

That's not the only reason some of us want happy options.

I don't care if people metagame.  I'm content to let them ruin their own experience.  I've never chosen the third option in Redcliffe, because it never made sense for my character to do so.  but I like that it was there, and I would have been happy if it had resulted in failure, but I'm also happy that it succeeds.  In fact, I like that success more because the choice was such a longshot.

That's drama.

That's not drama, it just makes the conflict pointless because there is a massive get out of jail free card, which even Gaider said he wish he could take out so even the writers regret having that choice being there.

You're approaching the question from the wrong perspective.

It doesn't matter how the choice looks to the player.  I t only matters how the choice looks to the characters.

The characters who make the choice don't know that it's a get-out-of-jail-free card, and thus they don't use it like one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mr.House wrote...

There was no happy ending in DAO, the dark ritual ending at best gave you some hope what you did will not bite everyone in the ass, but the game makes it clear you might have made a mistake because you did not want to die which is great, but let's not delude ourselfs that DAo had a dark and happy ending.

Again, it depends on your perspective.

For my character who chose the DR, and who was entirely self-interested, DAO did have a happy ending.  Yes, he may have exposed the world to grave risk, but he didn't care about that, so every outcome that mattered to him was a positive outcome.

That's a happy ending.

But for other characters, the ending was tragic.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Any philosophical thought experiment makes that abundantly clear.

Ask someone if it's better to let five people die or to intentionally kill one person. Now insert a magic button which lets the person save everyone. Said thought experiment becomes bland and uninteresting. It's the same basic concept behind why the Redcliffe scenario sucks due to the mages solution or how the Virmire situation would seem pointless if the player could save Kaidan and Ashley. Or how moronic the "Master Li wins" ending to Jade Empire is.

That goes for any playthrough.

And if the magic button adds greatly to the difficulty of the mission, and perhaps has its own consequences for obtaining, either immediately or in the future?

Simply having a button to press is more an example of a "golden ending" which goes beyond simply a happy outcome.

[Iakus]

Martyr1777 wrote...

You have a point but at the same time you can't make it so easy to get the 'happy' ending that you inadvertantly get it when you weren't 'trying' to.

Going back to ME2 again, I was all excited for the 'suicide' mission. But since I wanted to see all the companion stories I of course do all the loyalty missions. Then I get to the final mission and make a couple very simple common sense choices and... *poof* pink bunnys and rainbows everywhere. Really the same is true for DAO, if you complete all the army quests and don't actively put effort into being negative you get the pink bunnies again. DAO though does have the heroic sacrifice or OGB, which is a little more grey the ME2 at least but still.

I don't have a problem with making happy outcomes hard to get.  I am a fan of the "Earn Your Happy Ending" trope.  But like I said, there needs to be one to earn in the first place.

And the beauty of DAO is the ability to sacrifice yourself, pnt and hope for the best, or let another volunteer for the death, and none of those actions are inherently "wrong".