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[CELL55]

ElitePinecone wrote...

In Exile wrote...

It seems to me that any character who is willing to take on the archdemon with three GWs, i.e., three people that have to live to fight the archdemon or Ferelden is destroyed, is not going to be afraid to risk roling the dice here. 

That might speak to a disconnect between how bad the game says Blights are, and how bad the one we actually experience is. 
I mean, the fact that we're steamrolling over everything as the Warden, who is predestined to triumph by virtue of this being a story, doesn't mean that next time an Archdemon rises Thedas won't be wiped out for good. Blights are almost always apocalyptic - and the history of Thedas says every single one is immensely destructive. It seems monstrously irresponsible to say that there are three Wardens left, so the next Blight will be a walk in the park.

Having seen Ferelden devastated and thousands of people die trying to contain one Archdemon, if there was even the slightest chance that the Dark Ritual could lead to another one rising, I just wouldn't want to take that risk. Trying to get into the mindset of a particular kind of risk-averse Warden, then: I'd be terrified of another Blight, or of an old god manifesting as a human rather than a dragon. Sacrificing one life to end this old god soul for good doesn't seem like too high a price.

(In a sense, I don't think this kind of Warden in that situation would even be thinking rationally. The first and only instinct - I think - would be to kill the Archdemon for good and damn the consequences, no matter the possible gains from doing the Dark Ritual. Being ultra-cautious, in the middle of a Blight, is hardly a strange thing.)

That's how my Warden initially played things out... until the DLC came out. No way I was working through that with some newly-minted warden from Orlais with NO connection to anything going on. I went back to do the Dark Ritual for that reason, though personal sacrifice remains my favorite.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Key point being until. Once DA:I hits, in absence of negative consequences, it will likely become the default best result ending for the characters.

And after DAI becomes available we can revist that point.  But until that happens, there is simply not enough information to make a definitive statement.

heck even after DAI there may not be enough information.

I think it is "best" in the sense that it has no negatives attached, unlike the other endings. This is similar to your "earn your happy ending" argument. How is Alistair sacrificing himself equivalent when the player has a method to let Alistair live as a hero, with potentially no down side? I ask again, if DA:I mishandles the OGB, what negatives do you have to justify sacrificing either the Warden or Alistair?

See, that's the thing.  "if" There's really no defense againsdt an uncertainty.  I could express faith that the OGB will be handled well and maintain the balance between the endings of DAO.  But I may be wrong.  I could say I don't trust Morrigan. But that could be misplaced on my part.  I could say I dislike blood magic, or the idea of unleashing an Old God on Thedas.  but I do not know the long term consequences of either.

So all I can say is, within the context of DAO, and only DAO, since that's all I have data for.  that it is not my preferred ending.

if it turns out to be another rachni choice, sure I'll grumble then.  But not before.

That's where I think your argument is flawed.  Your point seems to be that because you have a different ending you prefer than I do, that Bioware handled DA:O's endings correctly. My point is that it doesn't matter which ending any of us find most enjoyable, Bioware wrote DA:O's ending in a context where there is a clear solution which will negate any and all negative possibilities, assuming DA:I mishandles the OGB. In that sense, I'm equating DA:O's endings to ME2's suicide mission, where the player has the ability to prevent any and all negative consequences.

But my point is which ending players find more enjoyable is what matters. DAO set it up so that one can reasonably choose other options than the "no consequences" (your words, not mine) choice.  And not only do they stand on their own merits, but there are people who actually prefer them.

[KaiserShep]

I actually like Loghain's atonement quite a bit. I'd like it more if Alistair didn't become a total crybaby about it, despite the fact that the joining screws over everyone who goes through with it, survivor or otherwise.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

And after DAI becomes available we can revist that point.  But until that happens, there is simply not enough information to make a definitive statement.

heck even after DAI there may not be enough information.

Which is why applauding DA:O for its decision-making prematurely makes no sense. And we do at least have some information regarding Bioware's past history of the import system, which was minimal in ME2 and DA2. Heck, even where it worked best in ME3 (the Genophage and Geth-Quarian wars) it was still far from perfect.

My hopes for DA:I don't rest exclusively on Bioware's import system, but I think it's a good point towards criticizing the dark ritual, since any realization of its consequences hinges on a currently lackluster import system.

See, that's the thing.  "if" There's really no defense againsdt an uncertainty.  I could express faith that the OGB will be handled well and maintain the balance between the endings of DAO.  But I may be wrong.  I could say I don't trust Morrigan. But that could be misplaced on my part.  I could say I dislike blood magic, or the idea of unleashing an Old God on Thedas.  but I do not know the long term consequences of either.

So all I can say is, within the context of DAO, and only DAO, since that's all I have data for.  that it is not my preferred ending.

if it turns out to be another rachni choice, sure I'll grumble then.  But not before.

See above. If we want to hold off on grumbling, I'm all for it. But then we should be holding off on applause as well. The dark ritual is the only DA:O ending that leaves unresolved plot points and a big one at that, potentially greater in scale than any import decision featured in a Bioware game.

Edit: I mean hell, when ME3 hit, do we have fans who look back and talk about how great the Rachni decision in ME1 was? Because as soon as the game hit shelves and even now, all I see is complaining about how lackluster the import was. Same basic point. Lack of pay-off ruins the choice.

Modifié par Il Divo, 01 février 2014 - 09:21 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Cell55. I just finished my Grey Warden from Orlais and was very surprised by some of the reactions I got. I did the take hostages thing, very Orleasian, destroyed Amaranthine and still got a favorable ending slides. I was totally surprised. I never had played through it before and had been putting off killing one of my wardens off. I'm trying to decide right now to take him into the rest of the DLC or just leave him where he is at. He also disappears.  I will probably take him into GOA, but not WH.  Him going after Morrigan doesn't make any sense to me.  He really had no reason too, unless someone told him that she made the offer. 

I feel it really comes down to how you played and the choices during play.  It depends.  I think the US is probably the best ending even though I really don't like killing my characters off.   It's a win all the way around even though my warden is now dead and the other Grey Warden from Orlais must carry on for me where I left off.  

I like all possible endings I guess.  I don't like forgone conclusions.  I'd rather decide.  I think this why most people hated DA2.  The ending was already decided regardless of what you did.  The ending battles just didn't make sense.  Especially with Meredith and Orsino.   

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 février 2014 - 09:43 .

[SgtSteel91]

In Exile wrote...

There were conversations with e.g. Wynne in DA:O that got across the "GW" is about sacrifice theme. The Joining itself was all about sacrifice - your ritual to become a GW is to poison yourself, shorten your own lifespan (at best) and immediately die (at worst). 

It was also a kind of logical sacrifice, because it explained a problem that the game had the entire way through: just what exactly is the point of a Grey Warden? In DA:O the treaties are never that important - with the sole exception of Orzammar, there was no difference between being or not being a GW for gathering the army. 

The idea that the GWs have to die to kill the archdemon works. It's still a huge gotcha moment - but it's also well handled by Riordan and not something you find out right when you fight the archdemon. 

I find this kinda funny since you can subvert all of that. Not only could you accept Morrigan's Ritual and null the sacrifice of any Warden, but you could also spare Avernus and let him continue his research with the hope that it could yield not only a non-lethal Joining Ritual but give any Warden power and control of the Taint without it slowly killing them.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 01 février 2014 - 10:20 .

[Deverz]

A tragic ending is fine, as long as it's optional.

[Iakus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

Which is why applauding DA:O for its decision-making prematurely makes no sense. And we do at least have some information regarding Bioware's past history of the import system, which was minimal in ME2 and DA2. Heck, even where it worked best in ME3 (the Genophage and Geth-Quarian wars) it was still far from perfect.

My hopes for DA:I don't rest exclusively on Bioware's import system, but I think it's a good point towards criticizing the dark ritual, since any realization of its consequences hinges on a currently lackluster import system. [/quote]

Except even without the Dark Ritual there are three other options which hold up well.

[quote]
[quote]
if it turns out to be another rachni choice, sure I'll grumble then.  But not before. [/quote]

See above. If we want to hold off on grumbling, I'm all for it. But then we should be holding off on applause as well. The dark ritual is the only DA:O ending that leaves unresolved plot points and a big one at that, potentially greater in scale than any import decision featured in a Bioware game. [/quote][/quote]

Out of curiosity, in Jade Empire, does the possibility of the drought returning play any part in your choice in the fate of the Water Dragon?

Dangling threads aren't exactly new in story resolution.  It's totally fair to dock points from an ending because of it.  But the Dragon Age games, unlike Mass Effect, are not direct sequels to each other.   Thus I judge the Dark Ritual based on the Warden's story.

Edit:  by which I mean "Sure everyone lives for now.  But you may have just screwed the next generation over.  You okay with that?"

[quote]
Edit: I mean hell, when ME3 hit, do we have fans who look back and talk about how great the Rachni decision in ME1 was? Because as soon as the game hit shelves and even now, all I see is complaining about how lackluster the import was. Same basic point. Lack of pay-off ruins the choice. [/quote]


Mass Effect is an object lesson on how not to do imports.  Or trilogies for that matter

Modifié par iakus, 01 février 2014 - 10:35 .

[SgtSteel91]

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

[Hellion Rex]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

Of course you are not playing it wrong. It is YOUR Thedas. You play and believe whatever you desire about that world. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Nefla]

I think tragic endings should be done REALLY well or not at all.

I would rather have a boring, generic, forgettable happy ending that is overshadowed by the rest of the game than a catastrophic cluster**** of a "tragic" ending that overshadows the rest of the game. Of course I would rather have well written multiple endings than either...

[JCAP]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

One word: Flemeth.

[SgtSteel91]

JCAP wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

One word: Flemeth.

She can try. It's been a while since my Warden killed a dragon.

[AlanC9]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

No. Whatever the DR does, it won't be very important. At worst, your Warden will have got a few hundred people killed who wouldn't have died otherwise.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 février 2014 - 11:35 .

[AlanC9]

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

Of course you are not playing it wrong. It is YOUR Thedas. You play and believe whatever you desire about that world. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Does this mean that the player can't be  -- shouldn't be allowed to be -- mistaken?

[Hellion Rex]

AlanC9 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

What if I think the Ritual is a potentially good thing and I trust my Warden and Morrigan to not let the OGB be a danger to the world? Am I playing it wrong?

Of course you are not playing it wrong. It is YOUR Thedas. You play and believe whatever you desire about that world. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Does this mean that the player can't be  -- shouldn't be allowed to be -- mistaken?

No, what I am saying is that until something in game proves a person wrong, they are free to make any theory they want and it is equally valid and possible.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Does this mean that the player can't be  -- shouldn't be allowed to be -- mistaken?

The player, definitionally, can't be mistaken about the world unless he is contradicting it.

Everything that isn't necessarily false is possibly true.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

It seems like there are several different definitions for what people consider a happy ending here. 

For me, a happy ending is one where my character survives, and forcing them to be sacrificed defeats the purpose. I play for them, so it doesn't matter to me if their sacrifice saves the world when the one thing I cared about most in that world is dead at the end. It's not about avoiding any kind of sacrifice in the game's choices. The world could be left in ruins as long as my character is still standing. There's something powerful and hopeful about the hero surviving to help rebuild after a war, which is what I would have liked to see in ME3.

With the exception of ME3's ending, all the other BioWare games I've played have ended in ways I consider to be happy - rising up from the rubble, returning alive from a suicide mission, preserving the soul of an Old God or giving a traitor achance to redeem himself by destroying it, escaping from Kirkwall like a rebel, etc. Just don't force my characters to die (well, unless they come back like Shepard... and someone else I won't name because of spoilers), and I'll probably like the ending unless they're otherwise forced to act terribly out-of-character or something like that.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Except even without the Dark Ritual there are three other options which hold up well.

No, they don't.  It's like pointing out the Redcliffe scenario and saying that the player has several options which hold up well, despite having a magic button for a perfect ending. The perfect Redcliffe ending is exactly what prevents the other options from holding up well.  

Bioware isn't likely to flesh out the dark ritual and its supposed negatives in any meaningful fashion. Again, ultimate sacrifice involves your Warden dying. Alternatively, Alistair dies. You're relying on the idea that the import system will result in some meaningful content, when I've seen you write several in-depth criticisms of said import system. What is the basis for your confidence?

Out of curiosity, in Jade Empire, does the possibility of the drought returning play any part in your choice in the fate of the Water Dragon?

Generally, no. Partially because Closed Fist playing out as Jade Empire's version of dark side. Despite how Smiling Mountain attempts to present the philosophy at the start of the game, Closed Fist characters are typically just selfish ****s. Hence my not caring about the ability to stop the drought doesn't rank high on Closed Fist priorities when the game sets you up to be a terrible person anyway.

Dangling threads aren't exactly new in story resolution.  It's totally fair to dock points from an ending because of it.  But the Dragon Age games, unlike Mass Effect, are not direct sequels to each other.   Thus I judge the Dark Ritual based on the Warden's story.

Well, if I were to look at it from a narrative perspective, I would be claiming the Warden's story isn't even done, given that (my Warden at least) passed with Morrigan through the Eluvian and is heavily invested in whatever is going on with our dear OGB.

Mass Effect is an object lesson on how not to do imports.  Or trilogies for that matter

Right, but that's my point here. I believe you, in more than a few cases, have expressed a lack of desire to return to play Mass Effect 1 because of Shepard's lack of survival. This doesn't apply any less to someone judging DA:O's efforts at presenting equivalent endings.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 février 2014 - 03:55 .

[CELL55]

scyphozoa wrote...

I'm fine with tragic endings, bittersweet endings or happy endings. All I care is that it is well done and well executed. I love the Assassin's Creed series and that entire series is filled with tragedy. But it is done well, it works and it doesn't seem heavy handed. What matters most is that DAI's ending is excellent. DAI needs to stick the landing, no rushed endings, no incoherent or inconsistent content, just a great ending that leaves the player feeling thoroughly satisfied.

I like the AC series as well, but I think tragedy works well there because it tells someone else's story. When a choice-driven RPG ends with tragedy, it can feel like you, the player failed at playing the game. As set stories like Assassin's Creed never claim to be about player agency, nothing is forfeited should the story take a dark turn.

[Targas]

 I enjoy a tragic ending if it isn't canon. Or if I can make an alternate decision that makes it happy. Really OT, but is that the new Shepard I see on the background to this forum page? He hasn't aged well.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Targas wrote...

Really OT, but is that the new Shepard I see on the background to this forum page? He hasn't aged well.

That's default Shepard in ME3 with a few Renegade scars. 

[Blackrising]

A tragic ending is fine in a story that isn't about a character the player creates and shapes.

The ending of The Walking Dead was absolutely fine and very fitting. I cried my eyes out, yes, but it didn't leave me feeling unsatisfied and unhappy. The endings of the Bioshock games can be very tragic or heartbreaking, but I never once felt that an ending was lacking in anyway. That's because they're not MY stories, the main characters are not MY character. There's a certain distance that keeps me aware that it's someone else's story and I am simply an observer.

But characters I help shape myself aren't 'someone else'. They feel like they're mine, because I created them, I decide what they do and what they think. Sometimes they feel like my children, sometimes they feel like myself, sometimes they simply feel like a beloved fictional character. But the point remains: I want them to be happy. I have a deep, personal desire to give them a happy ending, to see them succeed, to feel like what they had to go through ultimately paid off. Which is why the ME3 ending hit me so hard. It was a mixture of seeing my little person never achieve her own happiness and the tragedies of her personal life hitting a bit too close to home. It wasn't just sad, it was deeply depressing and I would like to never have to repeat that experience.

I'm sure not everyone feels that way, and more power to them. But if you feel like you have to include a tragic ending, whether it be in the vein of DA:O's Ultimate Sacrifice or ME3's Everything Sucks And I Want To Die, just make sure to include something for those of us who want to see their little person be happy at the end of it all as well.