642 réponses à ce sujet

[Generic Guy]

I prefer the idea that all good things come with a cost, otherwise it just makes the PC who didn't get the "perfect" ending look lazy (the going to the circle option for the Redcliff quest for example). I'm not saying I want an ending choice that overrides the previous choices to create a tragic or bitter-sweet end (like in ME3), but doing the "moral" thing can cause more harm than dirtying your hands for the "greater good" should be more common than doing "good" results in the "best" ending.

[DRTJR]

Personally I agree with Merrill, I living hero is better than a dead one. I find that Victory through adversity is better than any forced tragedy, that the one scene where victory is attained and the hero comes battered and bruised with the knowledge the for this one day Thedas is safe if the most satisfying of endings, for the battle is over the day is saved but the war against evil never ends. The Inquisition now stands guardian with you as its first and maybe greatest head

[OdanUrr]

One man's tragedy is another man's comedy.

[Iakus]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Any tragedy in the ending should be a result of our choices. It should not be pre-determined.

This.

An unavoidably tragic ending defeats the purpose of the whole "This is your story" thing.

[Mr.House]

iakus wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Any tragedy in the ending should be a result of our choices. It should not be pre-determined.

This.

An unavoidably tragic ending defeats the purpose of the whole "This is your story" thing.

Hardly.

[Hiemoth]

I have to admit that I think there is some confusion on the terms of tragic and bittersweet endings. For example, as has been explained already in the thread, DAO's endings weren't exactly tragic as the Blight was stopped and the Archdemon slain. If the sacrifice had been for nothing, then it would have been tragic. Also, I must admit my constant amusement/puzzlement, for the praise of the endings which depend on at the last minute choosing to die, having the other Warden die or having someone hook up with Morrigan.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. Even though I deeply enjoy a well-done bittersweet ending, I don't think there's anything questionable about wanting a happy ending for a game. Escapism and all that. I have rarely seen happy endings that felt really remarkable or memorable to me, but again, that is a question of writing and how the game leads up to that point. What I will contest, however, is the constant talking point being brought up how that bittersweet ending would be okay, but that it should be a result of choices and that a happy ending should also be available. It is the latter claim I have problem with.

Simply put, if there is an ending where everything ends up happily, then all the other endings are not tragic or bittersweet, their simply failed endings. The happy ending is a 'you win' ending, with every loss in the other endings not necessary if you just chose more wisely ultimately being 'you lose' endings. This isn't saying that people cannot or shouldn't ask for a happy ending for the game, but framing it as something possible to have at the same time with a bittersweet ending is not possible.

[Zu Long]

I'm... *looks at own sig* ... not really a tragic ending kind of person. I'll always reach for that horizon, no matter how hopeless it looks.

[Zu Long]

Hiemoth wrote...

I have to admit that I think there is some confusion on the terms of tragic and bittersweet endings. For example, as has been explained already in the thread, DAO's endings weren't exactly tragic as the Blight was stopped and the Archdemon slain. If the sacrifice had been for nothing, then it would have been tragic. Also, I must admit my constant amusement/puzzlement, for the praise of the endings which depend on at the last minute choosing to die, having the other Warden die or having someone hook up with Morrigan.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand. Even though I deeply enjoy a well-done bittersweet ending, I don't think there's anything questionable about wanting a happy ending for a game. Escapism and all that. I have rarely seen happy endings that felt really remarkable or memorable to me, but again, that is a question of writing and how the game leads up to that point. What I will contest, however, is the constant talking point being brought up how that bittersweet ending would be okay, but that it should be a result of choices and that a happy ending should also be available. It is the latter claim I have problem with.

Simply put, if there is an ending where everything ends up happily, then all the other endings are not tragic or bittersweet, their simply failed endings. The happy ending is a 'you win' ending, with every loss in the other endings not necessary if you just chose more wisely ultimately being 'you lose' endings. This isn't saying that people cannot or shouldn't ask for a happy ending for the game, but framing it as something possible to have at the same time with a bittersweet ending is not possible.

Dunno if I agree with that last bit. Plenty of people chose to lose people in the Suicide Mission because they argued it's how their Shepard would have done it. Likewise, I don't know if going Dark Side on KOTOR 1 means a failed ending there. Your ending should reflect your actions. Some Wardens chose not to save both Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine because their Warden didn't care.

[nightscrawl]

JCAP wrote...

Let's just imagine this:

The Inquisitor, no matter his personality or race or gender, is a really good protagonist. You just love him. But as the ending is coming closer, you start to understand one thing: his days are numbered. To close the tear, he needs to sacrifice himself or his soul. Imagine that he needs to make a deal with a powerful demon to close the tear, imagine he turns into a powerful spirit, imagine... well, anything. He's just not coming back.

...

So what are your thoughts? Do you think a tragic ending is more promising? Should all endings be tragic? Or should we have bittersweet endings too? Or just bittersweet endings? please no

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Any tragedy in the ending should be a result of our choices. It should not be pre-determined.

Yepper, I agree with Sylvius. I don't mind tragic endings as long as it is a logical progression for the story and not simply tragedy for tragedy's sake.

I did think that DAO was a good example of this. You could have any ending you wished and could have it reflect on your Warden's personality/history.

For example, a male Warden not in a romance with Morrigan who persuades Alistair or Loghain into doing the ritual rather than doing it himself really shows something about his character. Whether you use the rationale of being in a relationship with someone else (Leliana, Zevran), or just don't see an issue with talking someone into doing something you yourself aren't willing to do, it provides ample opportunities for roleplay.

These are the kinds of decisions, and paths within decisions, that we need to have, and I hope we have plenty of within DAI.

[Bfler]

Don't need tragic endings. Real life is full of tragedy and games shall provide a recovery from the harsh daily routine.

[Christianswe]

I think tragic endings are ok. It depends on what it is attached to, and how it is done. In most games players don't have a choice about the ending. And tragic endings work very well sometimes, like the walking dead, the last of us or the silent hill games.
However sometimes I get a little tired of " the hero has tho sacrifice himself/herself in the end. "
I think it's better to break away from that formula every once in a while.

In the case of dragon age, Bioware games. The key word is choice. And though it is a very cool feature for a player, it must be a nightmare for the developer. The studio can't cast magic, and make a product to satisfy everyone. I hope DAI has different endings, for different tastes.
One happy, one tragic/bittersweet. Maybe a bad and and neutral endings.
Like they did in DAO, you felt completely satisfied after beating that game.

[Azaron Nightblade]

 It can work if it's done well, IMO - but it's definitely harder to pull off, especially in Bioware titles where you are pretty much encouraged to invest in your character.
DAO's "Ultimate Sacrifice" was a brilliant ending, ME3's... not so much.
Probably best if it's optional and not forced.

Modifié par Azaron Nightblade, 29 janvier 2014 - 09:33 .

[spinachdiaper]

the best "tragic ending" in my opinion was the Conker's Bad Fur Day and The Chronicles of Riddick ending, Alone on the throne with everyone that matters dead.

Modifié par spinachdiaper, 29 janvier 2014 - 09:51 .

[Laughing_Man]

Player agency is importent to me, tragic endings rarely allow for it.
Also, I want to finish the game with a smile and a reason to replay it, a "downer" ending usually kills any interest I might have had in replaying the game / DLC.

[Mistic]

Hiemoth wrote...

Simply put, if there is an ending where everything ends up happily, then all the other endings are not tragic or bittersweet, their simply failed endings. The happy ending is a 'you win' ending, with every loss in the other endings not necessary if you just chose more wisely ultimately being 'you lose' endings. This isn't saying that people cannot or shouldn't ask for a happy ending for the game, but framing it as something possible to have at the same time with a bittersweet ending is not possible.

Mm, I don't agree with your conclusion there, but I think you've found out a very important reason why some people don't want a happy ending option: because it diminishes the other endings, appearing as "failed" endings in their eyes.

Mind you, I've said "some people", not most of them. I love roleplaying in RPG games, so I prefer my character "failing" if it means it makes for a coherent story. In my main DAII playthorugh, Isabella ran away with the Qunari book and never came back. I knew she could have come back if my character had a better relationship with her, but then the character wouldn't have been himself. And that's cool.

But I want the freedom to choose, if possible.

[Vit246]

They're vastly overrated.

Modifié par Vit246, 29 janvier 2014 - 10:45 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

I prefer my tragedy in small doses or in mediums where it is more or less the norm. I'd rather the game not force us into death, as I dont think all death scenarios could be adequately played out in a satisfying way. Id prefer a happy or bittersweet ending anytime, feels more like a satisfying conclusion to a story.

Cant say I care about the character as my own. They are their own part of the tale. Im just along for the ride, which I hope and will do my best to influence, ends with a happy note.

[fchopin]

First op i see nothing tragic in the destroy ending for ME3 and i love the ending so see nothing wrong with it.
Second i do not mind tragic endings provided we have different options on what to pick.
If it is something similar to DAO then i am fine with that.


Edit: The only thing a don’t want is another DA2 rubbish ending.

Modifié par fchopin, 29 janvier 2014 - 10:16 .

[Sc2mashimaro]

This is a case where I doubt the audience actually knows what they want. They *think* they know what they want, based on previous experiences, but few people really understand why those experiences were good or bad and whether those experiences qualify as good or bad execution of those ideas.

Hollywood blockbusters love the happy ending. It sells a lot of movie tickets and lets them do a sequel. However, there are many movies audiences and critics loved that have tragic or downer endings. Often it is presumed that these are more "artistic" movies, but that isn't always the case. The truth is, a good ending is a consequence of good writing. Good writing is another fuzzy term that is difficult to define, but it is possible to put together some basic concepts of what it is and is not. That's why there are whole books devoted to the subject in every medium writing and story-telling is a part of.

For example, I'll use one concept that can *often* tell you whether something is written well, particularly pertaining to endings. I say "often" because, as in all art, there are no hard and fast rules - every rule can be broken by someone who has the competence or luck to do so in an appealing way. This is the concept of "set-ups" and "pay-offs".

An exercise you can do with just about any story is to ask "What happened at the beginning that also happened at the end?" You might be surprised by the cool things you find by thinking about that. The reason the exercise almost always works is because good stories give you subtle tells about where they are going. They put the gun on the mantle that will be fired in the third act, a character makes an off-hand joke that foreshadows the plot of the entire movie, someone asks a question that seems innocuous but turns out to be the central question of the story.

Where it gets complicated is in application to video game storytelling. This is because video games add a dimension to storytelling called agency. Agency is not accounted for in most traditional storytelling practices, because it is not a part major of any other form of storytelling. Even Improv Comedy accounts very little for audience agency. Yet, while storytelling is complicated by agency, it does not have to be subjected to it - different video game give players different levels of agency. Call of Duty gives significantly less agency to the player in storytelling than Mass Effect or The Walking Dead (who, notably, pulled off a tragic ending to both audience and critical acclaim). Thus, one solution for creating solid set-ups and payoffs is to remove player agency in areas where that is important. The Walking Dead gives the player no choice about meeting Clementine, what Clementine does to set-up the ending, and only a superficial choice about how that ending plays out - and this is in a game whose primary mechanic is player choice. The other way is to plan the consequences to choices to match the payoffs to the setups. In Mass Effect and Dragon Age this is done in addition to the other method. In Dragon Age 2, the player may either bring their sibling with them into the Deep Roads or leave them behind - in each case the game sets up slightly differently, framing that decision, then, the ultimate consequence at the end of the Deep Roads mission is the payoff.

TL;DR: The point is this: All these things most people here have talked about do not matter. The ending can be good whether it is tragic/downer or not, it merely depends on how well it is written. It can be a good ending whether or not it directly relates to your choices or not, tragic or not, basically anything or not. Good characters and good ideas and enough time to get it right is what any story needs.

[Star fury]

Bishock Infinite had a very satisfying ending.

[Lotion Soronarr]

A good written ending is a good ending, regardless if the protagonists lives or dies.

Anyone saying otherwise is limited and/or blind.

[Star fury]

Vit246 wrote...

They're vastly overrated.

Somebody banned you, David? 

[L. Han]

I always thought that tragic endings often involve a conflict between a single person's belief.

[Magdalena11]

I think, unless I see otherwise, I'm going to blame huge chunks of the current crisis on the decisions my warden and Hawke made to get their happy endings. The first time through, at any rate.

The protags I enjoyed playing the most made decisions that helped them get what they wanted, not necessarily what even they thought was best. It's going to be a challenging first game. I wonder if I'll rage-quit after staying up for two nights straight.