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What are your thoughts about tragic endings?


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#101
Ianamus

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It depends entirely on if it fits the tone and genre of the game/movie/book whatever the ending is part of. One of the reason I despised Mass Effect 3's ending so much is that the ending and Shepard dying just didn't fit the tone of the games. They were always more heroic sci-fi than biblically symbolic art pieces, which is what the ending amounted to. 

I think that there should always be an option for the protagonist to survive in these sort of games. They may have to make some sacrifice in order for that to happen, but it should be possible. If the Inquisitor can sacrifice his life to close the tears why couldn't Cassandra? Or any other member of the Inquisition for that matter? The protagonist shouldn't be shoehorned into a situation where they have to die when it's completely illogical and other options were clearly present.

Modifié par EJ107, 29 janvier 2014 - 12:16 .


#102
Sidney

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EJ107 wrote...

It depends entirely on if it fits the tone and genre of the game/movie/book whatever the ending is part of. One of the reason I despised Mass Effect 3's ending so much is that the ending and Shepard dying just didn't fit the tone of the games. They were always more heroic sci-fi than biblically symbolic art pieces, which is what the ending amounted to.


Tragic wasn't really even the problem with ME3's ending.Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid has an ending that isn't line tonally with the more light hearted, happy go lucky and had people having fun on a bike while Burt Bacharach sang.

The problem isn't tragic endings it is badly written endings and evefrything from the time the magic elevator takes you up is just awful writing. I understand the impulse they had to kill Shep off to "finish" the mass effect games so they were not doing Sheppard part IV and then V. They just handled it badly.

#103
Naesaki

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Sidney wrote...


The problem isn't tragic endings it is badly written endings and evefrything from the time the magic elevator takes you up is just awful writing. I understand the impulse they had to kill Shep off to "finish" the mass effect games so they were not doing Sheppard part IV and then V. They just handled it badly.


Lets just hope they follow the same format as the DA games with future ME titles, a new protagonist everytime so they don't get stuck into that unescapable trap

I mean obviously ME 1 - 3 was always planned as the trilogy but it lead to people falling in love with Shepard and wanting him/her in every ME game ever after, and people constantly going "Will ME4 continue Shepards Story?"

#104
Hiemoth

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EJ107 wrote...

It depends entirely on if it fits the tone and genre of the game/movie/book whatever the ending is part of. One of the reason I despised Mass Effect 3's ending so much is that the ending and Shepard dying just didn't fit the tone of the games. They were always more heroic sci-fi than biblically symbolic art pieces, which is what the ending amounted to. 
 


Even though this is kind of off-topic, I just have to comment on this, as it always irks me to see this argument made.

During the promotion of ME3, they very specifically said several times that to them, the theme of the game was victory through sacrifice. During ME3, almost all the major missions require a sacrifice from a key character and most of the side missions involve someone sacrificing themselves for the mission. So it can be stated pretty strongly that Shepard's sacrifice at the end was consistent with the game as a whole. That doesn't mean that one should like the ending, though, but calling it tonally inconsistant isn't really accurate.

#105
Laughing_Man

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Hiemoth wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

It depends entirely on if it fits the tone and genre of the game/movie/book whatever the ending is part of. One of the reason I despised Mass Effect 3's ending so much is that the ending and Shepard dying just didn't fit the tone of the games. They were always more heroic sci-fi than biblically symbolic art pieces, which is what the ending amounted to. 
 


Even though this is kind of off-topic, I just have to comment on this, as it always irks me to see this argument made.

During the promotion of ME3, they very specifically said several times that to them, the theme of the game was victory through sacrifice. During ME3, almost all the major missions require a sacrifice from a key character and most of the side missions involve someone sacrificing themselves for the mission. So it can be stated pretty strongly that Shepard's sacrifice at the end was consistent with the game as a whole. That doesn't mean that one should like the ending, though, but calling it tonally inconsistant isn't really accurate.


ME3 did not have victory through sacrifice. At least not at its end.
What it did have was weirdness, and unsatisfying and questionable victory, through an unsatisfying Deus Ex Machina.

At this point there was not even a real need for personal sacrifise - a deus ex machina of this caliber does not need the broken corpse of one man to work its space magic, and a personality imprint could have been taken without the need for the protagonist to be fried to death by electricity.

I guess you could compare this to the lack of logic in everyone gathering to take back Earth, as if earth had some special significance to anyone else aside from humans.

It certainly didn't make sense strategicaly. The Salarian homeworld would have been a much better staging point, since if I'm not mistaken, it was left alone by the Reapers for some reason.

#106
Tinxa

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

But PLEASE none of that 3 second clip nonsense of "someone" taking half a breath... implying that the PC maaaaybe lived.... or maybe not...


Shep_Lives.bik

That answer your question?

If that doesn't, take a look at any movie ever that's used that type of thing, and realize that it's exclusively used to show them as alive. There's no debate.



And I, as the player am supposed to what? Hunt down the names of ending video clips in the code or whatever...


I know that the clip is "supposed" to show shep is alive, I'm just saying I don't like vague and artsy endings like that. I'm not asking any questions.
 
And I don't like it because that sort of thing doesn't hold up the 3 seconds it takes for someone to ask themselves: just who the hell is there that will dig him/her out of that rubble and get medical help???... guess shep is in for a painful and slow death...

#107
Hiemoth

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Misticsan wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

Simply put, if there is an ending where everything ends up happily, then all the other endings are not tragic or bittersweet, their simply failed endings. The happy ending is a 'you win' ending, with every loss in the other endings not necessary if you just chose more wisely ultimately being 'you lose' endings. This isn't saying that people cannot or shouldn't ask for a happy ending for the game, but framing it as something possible to have at the same time with a bittersweet ending is not possible.


Mm, I don't agree with your conclusion there, but I think you've found out a very important reason why some people don't want a happy ending option: because it diminishes the other endings, appearing as "failed" endings in their eyes.

Mind you, I've said "some people", not most of them. I love roleplaying in RPG games, so I prefer my character "failing" if it means it makes for a coherent story. In my main DAII playthorugh, Isabella ran away with the Qunari book and never came back. I knew she could have come back if my character had a better relationship with her, but then the character wouldn't have been himself. And that's cool.

But I want the freedom to choose, if possible.


It is always difficult to argue how most people feel, nor do I intend to make any such claims nor do I really place much faith on anyone's ability to really make that claim here. Nor am I against choice, I am not saying that the player shouldn't affect the endings. I think we could have a longer discussion on what is actual choice and how can they have consequences, but that is a matter for another thread.

What I will, however, oppose is that the other endings are "failures" in their eyes only. They are failed endings by almost definition, because the only reason there are negative things at the end is because the player character failed to something. Not because of the overwhelming odds, not because the nature of war always demands a cost, not because those opposing the players actions are efficient, but because the player didn't go through that one dungeon or have that one discussion with someone.

And I repeat, I do not think that there is anything wrong asking for a happy ending. I simply think that framing the claim that they want all these options which would also allow for those wanting bittersweet endings, and thus are all encompassing, is disingenuous. For those disagreeing with this, I would ask a question. What is your definition of a bittersweet ending?

#108
Hiemoth

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TheRedVipress wrote...

Hiemoth wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

It depends entirely on if it fits the tone and genre of the game/movie/book whatever the ending is part of. One of the reason I despised Mass Effect 3's ending so much is that the ending and Shepard dying just didn't fit the tone of the games. They were always more heroic sci-fi than biblically symbolic art pieces, which is what the ending amounted to. 
 


Even though this is kind of off-topic, I just have to comment on this, as it always irks me to see this argument made.

During the promotion of ME3, they very specifically said several times that to them, the theme of the game was victory through sacrifice. During ME3, almost all the major missions require a sacrifice from a key character and most of the side missions involve someone sacrificing themselves for the mission. So it can be stated pretty strongly that Shepard's sacrifice at the end was consistent with the game as a whole. That doesn't mean that one should like the ending, though, but calling it tonally inconsistant isn't really accurate.


ME3 did not have victory through sacrifice. At least not at its end.
What it did have was weirdness, and unsatisfying and questionable victory, through an unsatisfying Deus Ex Machina.

At this point there was not even a real need for personal sacrifise - a deus ex machina of this caliber does not need the broken corpse of one man to work its space magic, and a personality imprint could have been taken without the need for the protagonist to be fried to death by electricity.

I guess you could compare this to the lack of logic in everyone gathering to take back Earth, as if earth had some special significance to anyone else aside from humans.

It certainly didn't make sense strategicaly. The Salarian homeworld would have been a much better staging point, since if I'm not mistaken, it was left alone by the Reapers for some reason.


I am not completely about your argument here. First of all, almost all the ME3 main missions had someone sacrificing themselves. As for taking back Earth, most of the galactic species were at that point more interested in fighting the Reapers, who were mostly on Earth. Which again was logical considering what had been established in ME2.

As for the final choice, it is kind of a semantic argument what the Catalyst would demand and that wasn't the argument here. What was claimed was that the ending didn't fit tonally, which is not true, as the game had shown constantly someone sacrificing themselves to achieve the greater victory.

#109
Laughing_Man

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Hiemoth wrote...

I am not completely about your argument here. First of all, almost all the ME3 main missions had someone sacrificing themselves. As for taking back Earth, most of the galactic species were at that point more interested in fighting the Reapers, who were mostly on Earth. Which again was logical considering what had been established in ME2.

As for the final choice, it is kind of a semantic argument what the Catalyst would demand and that wasn't the argument here. What was claimed was that the ending didn't fit tonally, which is not true, as the game had shown constantly someone sacrificing themselves to achieve the greater victory.


Sacrifice for its own sake is suicide - not sacrifice, and the sacrifice at ME3's ending felt rather redundent and meaningless to me.

I had many problems with ME3, but no doubt that the ending was the cherry on top - for many reasons.
The fact that the ending was tragic in itself - was not the real problem, but it certainly added to the general feeling of disgust and frustration, and to my decision to stop playing the game and not buy further DLC's.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 29 janvier 2014 - 05:38 .


#110
Dave of Canada

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Give me all the tragic endings with decisions influencing the scale of the tragedy rather than "good ending" or "bad ending".

#111
Liamv2

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They can be amazing if done right. Tragic endings tend to be remembered more that the typical happy ones. Just don't do it like mass effect where you have no idea if your main character is alive or not.

Modifié par Liamv2, 29 janvier 2014 - 05:44 .


#112
Beerfish

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Tragic ending for an intermediary game in a series fine, forced tragic ending for last game of a series horrendous decision.

#113
Laughing_Man

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Beerfish wrote...

Tragic ending for an intermediary game in a series fine, forced tragic ending for last game of a series horrendous decision.


Thank the internet gods for fanfiction.
Most of it may be garbage, but you can always find something good eventually to replace a crappy original ending.

#114
Vit246

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Star fury wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

They're vastly overrated.


Somebody banned you, David? 


If you're talking about that _David_ guy from the ME3 board, you are mistaken.

#115
Ieldra

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I distinguish between heroic sacrifice endings and tragic endings.

Tragic endings are characterized by inevitability. The hero marches inexorably towards their doom, because circumstances conspire again them, conflicts of duty, their own flawed nature and similar reasons. In a "good" tragic ending, the hero knows this and eventually accepts their fate, and does something great that will be remembered before the inevitable demise. A game with an ending like this can be made, but the circumstances for the tragedy must be known in advance, convincing, and be reflected upon. Tragedy aims at catharis, an emotional cleansing, and if it works, it makes you feel empty but weirdly satisfied. If it fails, it leaves you depressed.

Heroic sacrifices are characterized by the fact that the hero chooses the action that will result in their death. There is no inevitability, in fact, it is exactly to avert what would otherwise be fated that the hero makes the sacrifice. For a game, that means that if it isn't made by choice, it isn't a heroic sacrifice. Heroic sacrifices are intended to be uplifting and if they work, they make you feel as if touched by something sublime. Falure can have many results, but typically results in confusion if the sacrifice was poorly rationalized or depression if you feel it wasn't worth it.

Personally, I like neither but I'd be willing to accept a tragic ending if it's foreshadowed well and early enough, I can get my protagonist to reflect upon it and the circumstances are convincing. The problem with doing this in a game is that it *must* be reflected on to work, and some characters we play aren't the type. For that reason, I think this will work only in games where the character is very defined from the start and there's never the illusion they're yours. It might have worked in ME3 had ME3 been the whole story, since Shepard was so much more defined there, but with two predecessor games which were made to make our character ours it was doomed to fail.

As for heroic sacrifices, I greatly dislike them and I almost never play them because most of the characters I play just aren't the type. They're also often tainted by the hint that it's my moral obligation to sacrifice myself, and I do not believe in such a notion. This is, in fact, the main reason why I tend to be hostile towards the idea. If such an ending arises naturally from the story, I like it if the option is there, but I will always tend to avoid it.

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 

#116
Iakus

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Ieldra2 wrote...

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 


Pretty much this.  It's very, very rare where inevitable death works well in an rpg.  In fact, I've seen it work exactly twice. 

A heroic sacrifice as an option can work alongside others, depending on how things are balanced out.  Like DAO.  I liked the US ending well enough, though it's not my first choice.  Others can feel differently, and that's fine.  It's a choice each of us can make.

#117
KaiserShep

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I distinguish between heroic sacrifice endings and tragic endings.

Tragic endings are characterized by inevitability. The hero marches inexorably towards their doom, because circumstances conspire again them, conflicts of duty, their own flawed nature and similar reasons. In a "good" tragic ending, the hero knows this and eventually accepts their fate, and does something great that will be remembered before the inevitable demise. A game with an ending like this can be made, but the circumstances for the tragedy must be known in advance, convincing, and be reflected upon. Tragedy aims at catharis, an emotional cleansing, and if it works, it makes you feel empty but weirdly satisfied. If it fails, it leaves you depressed.

Heroic sacrifices are characterized by the fact that the hero chooses the action that will result in their death. There is no inevitability, in fact, it is exactly to avert what would otherwise be fated that the hero makes the sacrifice. For a game, that means that if it isn't made by choice, it isn't a heroic sacrifice. Heroic sacrifices are intended to be uplifting and if they work, they make you feel as if touched by something sublime. Falure can have many results, but typically results in confusion if the sacrifice was poorly rationalized or depression if you feel it wasn't worth it.

Personally, I like neither but I'd be willing to accept a tragic ending if it's foreshadowed well and early enough, I can get my protagonist to reflect upon it and the circumstances are convincing. The problem with doing this in a game is that it *must* be reflected on to work, and some characters we play aren't the type. For that reason, I think this will work only in games where the character is very defined from the start and there's never the illusion they're yours. It might have worked in ME3 had ME3 been the whole story, since Shepard was so much more defined there, but with two predecessor games which were made to make our character ours it was doomed to fail.

As for heroic sacrifices, I greatly dislike them and I almost never play them because most of the characters I play just aren't the type. They're also often tainted by the hint that it's my moral obligation to sacrifice myself, and I do not believe in such a notion. This is, in fact, the main reason why I tend to be hostile towards the idea. If such an ending arises naturally from the story, I like it if the option is there, but I will always tend to avoid it.

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 


Well put. I think this pretty much lays out all of the problems I have with the idea and why I hate it so much. The only emotion I'd ever really be able to express with this kind of conclusion is annoyance.

#118
Mr.House

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Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

#119
Milan92

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I dislike tragic endings most of the time. I can enjoy bittersweet endings and love happy endings.

#120
Br3admax

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Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

#121
Mr.House

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Br3ad wrote...

Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

TBH Fallout 3 ending was crap because it made no sense. "Hey Fawkes go in there, you already did somethingl ike this before." What's his reason? A really crappy reaon. Broken Steel was needed for many reasons, the ending being unhappy was not a issue at all, the issue is it makes no fricken sense.

#122
Br3admax

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Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

TBH Fallout 3 ending was crap because it made no sense. "Hey Fawkes go in there, you already did somethingl ike this before." What's his reason? A really crappy reaon. Broken Steel was needed for many reasons, the ending being unhappy was not a issue at all, the issue is it makes no fricken sense.

Well that's only if you think Broken Steel actually did anything besides say, "lolitdidn'thappenthatway." 

#123
AresKeith

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I distinguish between heroic sacrifice endings and tragic endings.

Tragic endings are characterized by inevitability. The hero marches inexorably towards their doom, because circumstances conspire again them, conflicts of duty, their own flawed nature and similar reasons. In a "good" tragic ending, the hero knows this and eventually accepts their fate, and does something great that will be remembered before the inevitable demise. A game with an ending like this can be made, but the circumstances for the tragedy must be known in advance, convincing, and be reflected upon. Tragedy aims at catharis, an emotional cleansing, and if it works, it makes you feel empty but weirdly satisfied. If it fails, it leaves you depressed.

Heroic sacrifices are characterized by the fact that the hero chooses the action that will result in their death. There is no inevitability, in fact, it is exactly to avert what would otherwise be fated that the hero makes the sacrifice. For a game, that means that if it isn't made by choice, it isn't a heroic sacrifice. Heroic sacrifices are intended to be uplifting and if they work, they make you feel as if touched by something sublime. Falure can have many results, but typically results in confusion if the sacrifice was poorly rationalized or depression if you feel it wasn't worth it.

Personally, I like neither but I'd be willing to accept a tragic ending if it's foreshadowed well and early enough, I can get my protagonist to reflect upon it and the circumstances are convincing. The problem with doing this in a game is that it *must* be reflected on to work, and some characters we play aren't the type. For that reason, I think this will work only in games where the character is very defined from the start and there's never the illusion they're yours. It might have worked in ME3 had ME3 been the whole story, since Shepard was so much more defined there, but with two predecessor games which were made to make our character ours it was doomed to fail.

As for heroic sacrifices, I greatly dislike them and I almost never play them because most of the characters I play just aren't the type. They're also often tainted by the hint that it's my moral obligation to sacrifice myself, and I do not believe in such a notion. This is, in fact, the main reason why I tend to be hostile towards the idea. If such an ending arises naturally from the story, I like it if the option is there, but I will always tend to avoid it.

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 


I agree with this

and this

Greylycantrope wrote...
If it's done well and makes sense in context I have no issue with it being an option.


Modifié par AresKeith, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:07 .


#124
GreyLycanTrope

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If it's done well and makes sense in context I have no issue with it being an option.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:06 .


#125
The Elder King

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I prefer to have multiple endings than a single ending. That said, if there'll be only one ending in DAI, I don't care if it's happy or tragic or whatever, as long as it's well-done.