642 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

TBH Fallout 3 ending was crap because it made no sense. "Hey Fawkes go in there, you already did somethingl ike this before." What's his reason? A really crappy reaon. Broken Steel was needed for many reasons, the ending being unhappy was not a issue at all, the issue is it makes no fricken sense.

Well that's only if you think Broken Steel actually did anything besides say, "lolitdidn'thappenthatway." 

So it's better then having a radiation immune person telling you no and then having you kill yourself because reasons or have Lyons do it while your radiation friend does not want to do it is soooooooo much better right? I support tragic endings, when done right and well. FO3? HA no.

[KaiserShep]

Mr.House wrote...

Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

This isn't true. If it's poorly written and makes no sense, people will be upset about that too. Sure, some would like it, even if only on principle, but it would likely be poorly received if it's badly executed. Tragic endings do, however, walk a fine line in a game where the PC is a kind of extension of yourself, right down to personalizing the look of the character.

TWD is a good example of a tragic ending that works really well. Far as I can tell, it's pretty well received, even though there's no LI, and no hope left for the main character.

[Mr.House]

KaiserShep wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

This isn't true. If it's poorly written and makes no sense, people will be upset about that too. Sure, some would like it, even if only on principle, but it would likely be poorly received if it's badly executed. Tragic endings do, however, walk a fine line in a game where the PC is a kind of extension of yourself, right down to personalizing the look of the character.

TWD is a good example of a tragic ending that works really well. Far as I can tell, it's pretty well received, even though there's no LI, and no hope left for the main character.

The ending shou;ld fit the story, it should not compromise it self out of fear because loud players don't want their character to die.

[AresKeith]

KaiserShep wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

This isn't true. If it's poorly written and makes no sense, people will be upset about that too. Sure, some would like it, even if only on principle, but it would likely be poorly received if it's badly executed. Tragic endings do, however, walk a fine line in a game where the PC is a kind of extension of yourself, right down to personalizing the look of the character.

TWD is a good example of a tragic ending that works really well. Far as I can tell, it's pretty well received, even though there's no LI, and no hope left for the main character.

Carley and Lee are alive damnit 

[Iakus]

Mr.House wrote...

Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

I question whether an improbably-happy ending would pass without comment. Though I don't deny it would likely have less outrage because I am of the belief that in general people instinctively gravitate towards a "happy" outcome.  Especially when they feel a sense of ownership in a character.

An inevitably tragic ending.  In a choice-based game, is a foolish move.  It will be harder to justify, harder to pull off.  It will not be as popular as a happier ending of equal quality.  And it will take away a player's sense of choice.  it will remove the sense of agency and ownership from the player, make it feel like a spectator in the very story they were shaping.

Remember how people felt hawke was essentially a bystander in his/her own story?  And that was where Hawke lived.  Imagine if Hawke inevitably died defeating Meredith!

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...


This isn't true. If it's poorly written and makes no sense, people will be upset about that too. Sure, some would like it, even if only on principle, but it would likely be poorly received if it's badly executed. Tragic endings do, however, walk a fine line in a game where the PC is a kind of extension of yourself, right down to personalizing the look of the character.

TWD is a good example of a tragic ending that works really well. Far as I can tell, it's pretty well received, even though there's no LI, and no hope left for the main character.

It's one of the two games I mentioned earlier.  The other being Planescape:  Torment.

And given the way that game ended, and the nature of the D&D universe, it still might not be the end for The Nameless One

[Br3admax]

Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

TBH Fallout 3 ending was crap because it made no sense. "Hey Fawkes go in there, you already did somethingl ike this before." What's his reason? A really crappy reaon. Broken Steel was needed for many reasons, the ending being unhappy was not a issue at all, the issue is it makes no fricken sense.

Well that's only if you think Broken Steel actually did anything besides say, "lolitdidn'thappenthatway." 

So it's better then having a radiation immune person telling you no and then having you kill yourself because reasons or have Lyons do it while your radiation friend does not want to do it is soooooooo much better right? I support tragic endings, when done right and well. FO3? HA no.

I was thinking more along the lines of afterwards than the points leading up to it. Anyway, considering what the Project Purity was actually meant to do, I can understand why "your friend"(lolBethesda) would not want to. 

[Mr.House]

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Threads like these are why Fallout 3 turned out the way it did. Ending wise anyway.

TBH Fallout 3 ending was crap because it made no sense. "Hey Fawkes go in there, you already did somethingl ike this before." What's his reason? A really crappy reaon. Broken Steel was needed for many reasons, the ending being unhappy was not a issue at all, the issue is it makes no fricken sense.

Well that's only if you think Broken Steel actually did anything besides say, "lolitdidn'thappenthatway." 

So it's better then having a radiation immune person telling you no and then having you kill yourself because reasons or have Lyons do it while your radiation friend does not want to do it is soooooooo much better right? I support tragic endings, when done right and well. FO3? HA no.

I was thinking more along the lines of afterwards than the points leading up to it. Anyway, considering what the Project Purity was actually meant to do, I can understand why "your friend"(lolBethesda) would not want to. 

He already got the GECK for you, going in to insert a code so all water is pure for everyone is hardly expecting alot, it's thinking logical.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Ieldra2 wrote...

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 

That's pretty much what I did with DAO when I went for the ultimate sacrifice.
I found it very fitting that it was an Elven Mage that gave his life to save Ferelden; someone who by all rights I couldn't have blamed for saying "Screw them all. Let them all burn." 

[Killdren88]

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

[Iakus]

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

[Killdren88]

iakus wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

Indeed add this to where we can save everyone, might be hard as hell be well worth it

[Br3admax]

Mr.House wrote...

He already got the GECK for you, going in to insert a code so all water is pure for everyone is hardly expecting alot, it's thinking logical.

Eh, for me, I wanted the FEV put in too, but I'm a bad person. 


As to the thread topic: Tragic endings are among some of the best endings, when done well. The notion that the hero needs to survive is cliche as well. Much more so. 

[AresKeith]

Killdren88 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

Indeed add this to where we can save everyone, might be hard as hell be well worth it

I don't know about saving everyone

[Iakus]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

That's pretty much what I did with DAO when I went for the ultimate sacrifice.
I found it very fitting that it was an Elven Mage that gave his life to save Ferelden; someone who by all rights I couldn't have blamed for saying "Screw them all. Let them all burn." 

My silly Aeducan fob who grew into nobility felt right in sacrificing himself to stop a Blight

But my Cousland who was unwilling to leave Leliana alone in the world and was unwilling to let Alistair die for him, the Dark Ritual felt right(ish) for him

And my elven mage who felt Morrigan was treading into dangerous ground and was unwilling to risk unleashing an Old God on teh world, but was willing to squeeze all the use out of Loghain he could, letting Loghain die felt right.

And then there was my Dalish Warden, who didn't care about humans, and certainly wasn't going to die for them, had no problem letting Alistair play the hero

[Iakus]

AresKeith wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

Indeed add this to where we can save everyone, might be hard as hell be well worth it

I don't know about saving everyone

"You can destroy all the demons, but you'll killy ever mage man, woman, and child as well" will not be a "happy ending".  Earned or not.

[Killdren88]

AresKeith wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

Indeed add this to where we can save everyone, might be hard as hell be well worth it

I don't know about saving everyone

Understandable. More like saving everyone that matters in a way. Like The Lord of this region is trapped in his keep surrounded by demons. It is quite hard o get to him. You can leave. You gt your main objective done, or go further to hit the keep and save this Lord and if you succed you are given more agents or maybe support for the Inqusition in another area.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

He already got the GECK for you, going in to insert a code so all water is pure for everyone is hardly expecting alot, it's thinking logical.

Eh, for me, I wanted the FEV put in too, but I'm a bad person. 


As to the thread topic: Tragic endings are among some of the best endings, when done well. The notion that the hero needs to survive is cliche as well. Much more so. 

I may sound a bit like a git but I don't mind that particular cliché. Hero doesn't need to necessarily survive, but it's hard to put a positive spin on things and end on a happy note without that. Some can, those probably being the well done tragic endings you were referring to, but a lot of them...yeah.

More force involved in them then a meditation session with yoda.

[Zered]

A good ending is an ending that makes sense. Not like ME3 which was plot hole minefield mixed with bad writing.

[Hiemoth]

iakus wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

If we are given an option to fight for our happy ending I'll take it. Like if we need to go the extra mile and it's difficult I'd be for that.

Earn Your Happy Ending

I'm all for that.  But it is predicated ontheir being a happpy ending to earn

And I realize that I am somewhat repeating what I wrote earlier, but the mere mention of that trope highlights why I argued that you cannot have a bittersweet ending as an alternative for the happy ending. The very name of that trope indicates getting the happy ending means doing everything one can to reach it, thus any of the bad/sad endings are due to the player not having done everything or just having half-done it. So in that case the ending would be an indicator of player failure to reach that happy ending. Which, and I cannot stress this enough, is not what a bittersweet ending is.

[Mr.House]

You should never be able to save everyone.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Mr.House wrote...

You should never be able to save everyone.

That entirely depends on what someone qualifies as "everyone" and to that matter the context in which the story is being told and if such sacrifices are necessary.

A  story about a sudden disaster is something that I would imagine would be impossible for you to save everyone's lives from. Not being able to save everyone's lives in a tale about shopping in a supermarket when a sale is going on would be utterly ridiculous.

[KaiserShep]

Mr.House wrote...

You should never be able to save everyone.

Saving every NPC that populates the game was never going to be in the cards anyway, but there's no reason that this can't be true for the PC and small group of companions.

[Hiemoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I distinguish between heroic sacrifice endings and tragic endings.

Tragic endings are characterized by inevitability. The hero marches inexorably towards their doom, because circumstances conspire again them, conflicts of duty, their own flawed nature and similar reasons. In a "good" tragic ending, the hero knows this and eventually accepts their fate, and does something great that will be remembered before the inevitable demise. A game with an ending like this can be made, but the circumstances for the tragedy must be known in advance, convincing, and be reflected upon. Tragedy aims at catharis, an emotional cleansing, and if it works, it makes you feel empty but weirdly satisfied. If it fails, it leaves you depressed.

Heroic sacrifices are characterized by the fact that the hero chooses the action that will result in their death. There is no inevitability, in fact, it is exactly to avert what would otherwise be fated that the hero makes the sacrifice. For a game, that means that if it isn't made by choice, it isn't a heroic sacrifice. Heroic sacrifices are intended to be uplifting and if they work, they make you feel as if touched by something sublime. Falure can have many results, but typically results in confusion if the sacrifice was poorly rationalized or depression if you feel it wasn't worth it.

Personally, I like neither but I'd be willing to accept a tragic ending if it's foreshadowed well and early enough, I can get my protagonist to reflect upon it and the circumstances are convincing. The problem with doing this in a game is that it *must* be reflected on to work, and some characters we play aren't the type. For that reason, I think this will work only in games where the character is very defined from the start and there's never the illusion they're yours. It might have worked in ME3 had ME3 been the whole story, since Shepard was so much more defined there, but with two predecessor games which were made to make our character ours it was doomed to fail.

As for heroic sacrifices, I greatly dislike them and I almost never play them because most of the characters I play just aren't the type. They're also often tainted by the hint that it's my moral obligation to sacrifice myself, and I do not believe in such a notion. This is, in fact, the main reason why I tend to be hostile towards the idea. If such an ending arises naturally from the story, I like it if the option is there, but I will always tend to avoid it.

For DAI, this means that I will not accept an ending that inevitably entails my character's death. If it deserves the term "roleplaying game", then my character will be too much mine and the character types I want to play most will not be the type for either a tragedy or a heroic sacrifice. If the option is there, I might make a character who is the type in some replay or other because I do like to play something different once in a while, but I won't be forced into it with my mains. 

Well written argument explaining what you desire in a game in a clear and understandable manner.  I do not completely agree with it, but it does argument the case well.

One of the core counter-arguments I would have here is that the game is already forcing you on a certain path to begin with. In DAO, you are forced to become the Warden and fight the Blight. In ME you are forced to become the Spectre. In DA2, you are forced to move to Kirkwall. These are all already obligations within the start of the game. Furthermore, the game gives you only a limited amount of choices as to how to approach the problem at hand and how those challenges can be solved.

Thus if we can accept all those limitations, arguing that an ending that requires a sacrifice of some sorts is a limitation too great seems somewhat arbitrary.

[Ieldra]

Mr.House wrote...
Find all these comments funny because I bet you if all the options where happy you guys would not give a flying crap, you would be happy because you got a happy sunshine ending and get to ride off with your waifu even if it makes no sense at all, but have a tragic ending? EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND

And this makes no sense to you?

Story endings are emotional. Regardless of exactly how the endings work, there needs to be some emotional payoff. Happy endings are unproblematic in that by their nature, but less happy ones need to be done right to work. If a heroic ending is not sublime, or if a tragic ending has no catharsis, then there is no emotional payoff and you rightly complain about that.

There is also the fact that not everyone is made for a tragedy. Some people just aren't receptive to the idea and refuse to be drawn along. If you go to the theatre to watch a tragedy, you know what you're in for and won't be surprised, and if you don't like tragedies, you won't go. Having it sprung on you is doomed to fail for many. Had I known in advance that Shepard was doomed in ME3, I would either have adapted to the idea before I bought it or not bought it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:00 .