135 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

dreamgazer wrote...
Trust me: having that opinion (Alan's description was accurate) doesn't make me "cool", here or anywhere, but I stand by it for the reasons previously listed and linked.

Nuanced opinions are the pariah of extremists on both sides. For example:

Fandango9641 wrote...
 Indeed, to dismiss the reaction to the ending of ME3 so is to miss the point about the failures of the ending altogether.

Apparently saying the reaction to ME3's ending was overblown means you don't get why people didn't like it. I'm inclined to believe him because he began his sentence with indeed.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 30 janvier 2014 - 03:41 .

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

It's not great writing, that's for sure, but neither is OrganicShep surviving the direct hit from a huge piece of Sovereign's debris and smirking at it afterwards. 

Except that didn't happen.  The chunk of Sovereign landed between Shepard and the squadmates.  They assumed Shep got flattened, then we clearly see Shepard climbing over it and limping toward them.

okay, the smirk is kinda creepy.  

 Nor is Shepard's brain getting rebooted after death in Project Lazarus.

That is a good true.

Face it: the implausible happens in the Mass Effect universe, especially around CyborgShep and his survival. 

Or Shepard's non-survival, as the case may be

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Apparently saying the reaction to ME3's ending was overblown means you don't get why people didn't like it. I'm inclined to believe him because he began his sentence with indeed.

Well, it does indicate a lack of understanding as to why the reaction was so strong.  Calling it "overblown" is a rather dismissive way of addressing concerns people feel very strongly about.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Well, it does indicate a lack of understanding as to why the reaction was so strong.

No, it doesn't. Understanding and approving are totally different concepts. I was pretty upset at the ME3 original endings, but I was still pretty disgusted with the way a small portion of the fanbase conducted themselves, which only led to things spiraling more out of control. I still blame the "we want a new ending NOW AND FOR FREE" people for us not getting an expansive paid alternate ending DLC. Once this became BioWare VERSUS the fans (and make no mistake, that is a mindset the fans initiated) then BW had no choice but to keep their ending.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 30 janvier 2014 - 03:48 .

[dreamgazer]

iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

It's not great writing, that's for sure, but neither is OrganicShep surviving the direct hit from a huge piece of Sovereign's debris and smirking at it afterwards. 

Except that didn't happen.  The chunk of Sovereign landed between Shepard and the squadmates.  They assumed Shep got flattened, then we clearly see Shepard climbing over it and limping toward them.

okay, the smirk is kinda creepy.  

Watch it again.  Huge, wide piece of debris (aimed right at their position! LOL.) that should have wiped out everything organic in its trajectory, conveniently leaving everyone just fine.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Well, it does indicate a lack of understanding as to why the reaction was so strong.

No, it doesn't. Understanding and approving are totally different concepts.

Did anyone else jsut hear that scene in teh Simpsons whereHomer goes "Lisa, just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand" 

I was pretty upset at the ME3 original endings, but I was still pretty disgusted with the way a small portion of the fanbase conducted themselves, which only led to things spiraling more out of control.

And that of course applies to everyone who hated the endings, right?

I still blame the "we want a new ending NOW AND FOR FREE" people for us not getting an expansive paid alternate ending DLC. Once this became BioWare VERSUS the fans (and make no mistake, that is a mindset the fans initiated) then BW had no choice but to keep their ending.

that was never going to happen.  Yeah I was hopeful at first.  But then I realized that Bioware was never going to admit that these endings were a bad idea.  And that simply can't happen. 

And no this isn't an "us vs Bioware" statement.  This is simply looking back on what they have said about ME3 and earlier games.  They may admit that things don't go as well as expected, but there are no takebacks. 

"There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose" 

Modifié par iakus, 30 janvier 2014 - 03:59 .

[Iakus]

dreamgazer wrote...

Watch it again.  Huge, wide piece of debris (aimed right at their position! LOL.) that should have wiped out everything organic in its trajectory, conveniently leaving everyone just fine.

Yup.  SHepard sees debris headed tehir way, and goes "Run!"  

Debris crashes through window.  We don't see what happens next.

Cut to resscue team.

[HWM Sarge]

I often think we get caught up on epilogues on here because of our experience with BioWare's other games like KOTOR and the Dragon Age series.

I prefer to think of Mass Effect as purely Shepard's story, and that the player and Shepard are one in the same. I follow that line of thinking down the Indoctrination Theory and end up with the game ending as that beam hits near Shepard and Shepard going through a final battle against indoctrination itself.

For me, that means that Shepard's story came to a sudden end, and because we are Shepard, we never get to know what really happened after that. However, I don't think it matters so much, as we accomplished what we were trying to do from the beginning: everything we could to stop the Reapers. We united a galaxy against a huge threat, and then we died on the final run.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Did anyone else jsut hear that scene in teh Simpsons whereHomer goes "Lisa, just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand" 

Hah! That's another way to state the basic difference, yes.

And that of course applies to everyone who hated the endings, right?

You must have completely misread what you quoted, which was a sentence specifically designed to show that it doesn't apply to everyone who hated the endings. Note the note that I hated the endings, and note that I specifically said a "small" portion of the fanbase: that was not meant to bring up the vocal minority argument again but rather that the percentage of people who acted like immature brats was relatively small, and wasn't actually limited to people who hated the endings. The biggest trolls on this board post-March 6 were those who (apparently, you never know with trolls) liked the endings.

that was never going to happen.  Yeah I was hopeful at first.  But then I realized that Bioware was never going to admit that these endings were a bad idea.  And that simply can't happen.

We'll never know, will we? The most vocal fanbase reaction was a strict "no compromise"  dogma that eliminated the attractiveness of a paid alternate ending DLC.

Look at the reaction to Ray's statement, which is for all intents and purposes an olive branch. "We're sticking with the idea of the endings but realize we need to be humble and compromise and listen to our fans." "We need to be more clear about what we want fans to take away from the events of the ending" became - through the warped logic of victim complexes - "They say we're stupid!" when it was putting the onus clearly on BioWare for being too vague and unclear.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

You must have completely misread what you quoted, which was a sentence specifically designed to show that it doesn't apply to everyone who hated the endings. Note the note that I hated the endings, and note that I specifically said a "small" portion of the fanbase: that was not meant to bring up the vocal minority argument again but rather that the percentage of people who acted like immature brats was relatively small, and wasn't actually limited to people who hated the endings. The biggest trolls on this board post-March 6 were those who (apparently, you never know with trolls) liked the endings.

And I was implying that you are transferring your disgust towards this small group towards anyone who despises the endings.

We'll never know, will we? The most vocal fanbase reaction was a strict "no compromise"  dogma that eliminated the attractiveness of a paid alternate ending DLC.

Look at the reaction to Ray's statement, which is for all intents and purposes an olive branch. "We're sticking with the idea of the endings but realize we need to be humble and compromise and listen to our fans." "We need to be more clear about what we want fans to take away from the events of the ending" became - through the warped logic of victim complexes - "They say we're stupid!" when it was putting the onus clearly on BioWare for being too vague and unclear.

Except the problem isn't being "vague and unclear" It's the very concept behind the endings that are awful, and to me, borderline offensive.

By saying 'All you really need is clarity to understand what we're saying" they are implying that the endings would be fine if only we "got it"

Modifié par iakus, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:34 .

[AlanC9]

H3WM Sarge wrote...

I often think we get caught up on epilogues on here because of our experience with BioWare's other games like KOTOR and the Dragon Age series.

I prefer to think of Mass Effect as purely Shepard's story, and that the player and Shepard are one in the same. I follow that line of thinking down the Indoctrination Theory and end up with the game ending as that beam hits near Shepard and Shepard going through a final battle against indoctrination itself.

For me, that means that Shepard's story came to a sudden end, and because we are Shepard, we never get to know what really happened after that. However, I don't think it matters so much, as we accomplished what we were trying to do from the beginning: everything we could to stop the Reapers. We united a galaxy against a huge threat, and then we died on the final run.

Of course, in KotOR we only thought we knew what would happen with our PC. DS or LS, we were wrong about that. But that's mostly not on Bio, who weren't responsible for KotOR 2.

For an IT believer, you seem surprisingly at peace with not having a real ending to the Reaper war. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:53 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
Except the problem isn't being "vague and unclear" It's the very concept behind the endings that are awful, and to me, borderline offensive.

By saying 'All you really need is clarity to understand what we're saying" they are implying that the endings would be fine if only we "got it"

Perhaps that statement isn't addressed at your personal concern. Or are you saying that the majority of ending dissatisfaction was aimed at the morally-compromised nature of the final choices, since you're talking about the "very concept."

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:52 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
And I was implying that you are transferring your disgust towards this small group towards anyone who despises the endings.

Nope. You are a far cry from MintyCool or The Angry One, iakus.

Except the problem isn't being "vague and unclear" It's the very concept behind the endings that are awful, and to me, borderline offensive.

Except that clearly a portion of the fanbase that disliked the endings DID take issue primarily with how unclear or plothole-riddled the endings were, as opposed to any sort of moral outrage. Ray said the team wanted to strike a balance between the idea of the original endings and fan feedback. This balance consisted of ignoring criticism that would require a rewrite of the endings and addressing criticism that only required tweaks.

By saying 'All you really need is clarity to understand what we're saying" they are implying that the endings would be fine if only we "got it"

Yeah please show where they said this. And I'm not talking about words that you twist around to suit your preference.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
Except the problem isn't being "vague and unclear" It's the very concept behind the endings that are awful, and to me, borderline offensive.

By saying 'All you really need is clarity to understand what we're saying" they are implying that the endings would be fine if only we "got it"

Perhaps that statement isn't addressed at your personal concern. Or are you saying that the majority of ending dissatisfaction was aimed at the element you consider "borderline offensive"? I presume that's the morally-compromised nature of the final choices.

It's the assumption that "vague and unclear" was the only problem people had with the endings.  That it was teh only concern worth addressing.  That there was no problem with the quality, or the message (real or implied) that it delivered. 

[HWM Sarge]

AlanC9 wrote...

H3WM Sarge wrote...

I often think we get caught up on epilogues on here because of our experience with BioWare's other games like KOTOR and the Dragon Age series.

I prefer to think of Mass Effect as purely Shepard's story, and that the player and Shepard are one in the same. I follow that line of thinking down the Indoctrination Theory and end up with the game ending as that beam hits near Shepard and Shepard going through a final battle against indoctrination itself.

For me, that means that Shepard's story came to a sudden end, and because we are Shepard, we never get to know what really happened after that. However, I don't think it matters so much, as we accomplished what we were trying to do from the beginning: everything we could to stop the Reapers. We united a galaxy against a huge threat, and then we died on the final run.

Of course, in KotOR we only thought we knew what would happen with our PC. DS or LS, we were wrong about that. But that's mostly not on Bio, who weren't responsible for KotOR 2.

For an IT believer, you seem surprisingly at peace with not having a real ending to the Reaper war. 

Yeah, I get that a lot. It's something I want to know about, and yeah I'd really like to see that resolved, but I try to focus on other things that are much cooler to think about.

From a gaming-as-a-artform perspective, the idea that BioWare did the greatest form of player immersion ever by putting their own fans through an indoctrination experience is way cooler to me than seeing a long list of who survived and how many babies they had after the fact.

Sure, I want to know what happens to this universe as a person interacting with this world outside of Shepard, but from a narrative perspective and an immersion perspective, I think it's completely fascinating. At this point I am skeptically optimistic about Mass Effect 4 in seeing if they can resolve some of these outstanding questions.

[Mathias]

dreamgazer wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I mean seriously. In the Destroy ending Shepard is engulfed in an explosion, hit with a wave that shattered his implants, then is engulfed in an ever bigger explosion that occured in the entire presidium, and yet he somehow survives that?

How is that not bad writing to you?

It's not great writing, that's for sure, but neither is OrganicShep surviving the direct hit from a huge piece of Sovereign's debris and smirking at it afterwards. Nor is Shepard's brain getting rebooted after death in Project Lazarus. 

Face it: the implausible happens in the Mass Effect universe, especially around CyborgShep and his survival. 

He didn't suffer a direct hit though. It all happens off screen. I think it's easy to assume Shepard was able to take cover in time. That I can believe. The Destroy ending on the other hand, we literally see him engulfed in the explosion.

The Lazurus Project I could buy because this is a Sci Fi story that takes place in the future, and with the brilliant minds working at Cerberus and the absurd amount of funds they poured into the project, I could easily roll with Shepard's resurrection. Even if you still think it's BS, at least it had an explanation.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:12 .

[Mathias]

Br3ad wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

If you have a good understanding of narrative structure, and not the type of person that just "accepts" whatever is told to you, then you'll very likely realize why the ending is awful on so many levels. I can respect the actual person who likes the ending, but I cannot respect their opinion on it, simply because it's not a respectable opinion. It's wrong. You can bring up subjectivity all you want, and from an artistic viewpoint it absolutely is subjective. But from an academic viewpoint, the ending is experimental and completely fails on that regard.

EDIT:

I mean seriously. In the Destroy ending Shepard is engulfed in an explosion, hit with a wave that shattered his implants, then is engulfed in an ever bigger explosion that occured in the entire presidium, and yet he somehow survives that?

How is that not bad writing to you?

Implying that we like the ending. What is with everyone assuming that if we don't want to raise holy hell, we like something. If we don't hate soemthing, we like it right? With us or against us? Am I getting you? 

I'm not addressing EVERYONE in the thread. Just the ones defending the ending.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:10 .

[dreamgazer]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

He didn't suffer a direct hit though. It all happens off screen. I think it's easy to assume Shepard was able to take cover in time. That I can believe. The Destroy ending on the other hand, we literally see him engulfed in the explosion.

We literally see the entire floor bombarded with a massive piece of debris, and Shepard just standing there less than a second before impact after saying "Go!". Factor in Shepard's entirely organic state at that point, and it's not all that different of a situation: entire area was leveled, yet everyone survived because reasons.  

The Lazurus Project I could buy because this is a Sci Fi story that takes place in the future, and with the brilliant minds working at Cerberus and the absurd amount of funds they poured into the project, I could easily roll with Shepard's resurrection. Even if you still think it's BS, at least it had an explanation.

Shepard's brain being rebooted with all memories intact wasn't explained at all, and most of the rest of Lazarus wasn't either, really.  If you're going to question biology in the writing, like CyborgShep getting engulfed by the blast like many action heroes have endured in the past before stumbling to safety, then you should probably do it thoroughly.   Also, there's a lot of "off-screen" time there---if the ending is to the taken in earnest, around a minute or two---where Shepard could have braced for impact in a contingency or makeshift safety area or some other bullshit heroic explanation (like one has to do with ME1's ending).  I'm not a fan of the execution either, really, but it's certainly not much of a leap given this universe.

Blend Out of the Inferno with a little Finger Twitching Revival, and you're there.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 30 janvier 2014 - 05:50 .

[garrusfan1]

I have to ask did the ever say whether the breath scene meant shepard was alive and would meet his LI

[dreamgazer]

garrusfan1 wrote...

I have to ask did the ever say whether the breath scene meant shepard was alive and would meet his LI

About as close as you'll probably get: http://social.biowar...758618#12758842

[Ultim Asari]

This thread has been derailed. I wanted to hear from people who liked the ending. Not love, just like.

[CronoDragoon]

Ultim Asari wrote...

This thread has been derailed. I wanted to hear from people who liked the ending. Not love, just like.

I always find it interesting to hear the opinions of those who played through the first time with the EC and Leviathan. Anecdotally they have been largely positive, so no you haven't been alone. Many people who became satisfied with the EC/Leviathan no longer felt the need to remain on the boards, so maybe that's why you feel this way. I've seen several threads started by people who liked the EC ending, then didn't post again.

Personally I really like the background of the Catalyst and Leviathan, and thought that the EC/Leviathan did a great job clearing up what was previously a cluster**** of vagueness. The EC also retconned the relay destruction, and gave us more finality with the squad/LI. I like the memorial scene. Also the farewell scene at the beam was added with the EC, and it's pretty darn heartbreaking to watch.

Perhaps in a world where I never played the original endings I could say I like the ME3 endings as they currently stand. As of now I'd say they are "okay" or acceptable.

[Ultim Asari]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Ultim Asari wrote...

This thread has been derailed. I wanted to hear from people who liked the ending. Not love, just like.

Puhahahahahhaha!

This thread has been derailed. Period.

You're new, so we'll tell you. 

Welcome to the BSN. 

how come you never post anything constructive in my threads? You're pretty annoying.

[Barquiel]

I like some scenes of the EC ending. The goodbye scenes in London are great. The confrontation with TIM was handled well for his character...and the final conversation that Anderson and Shepard have is really touching. But the scene with the catalyst is, well, not that good (even changing the appearance of the catalyst would have helped). I like the destroy epilogue with the cheering asari/krogan and Hacketts speech again.

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 janvier 2014 - 06:28 .