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[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The EC also retconned the relay destruction, and gave us more finality with the squad/LI. I like the memorial scene. Also the farewell scene at the beam was added with the EC, and it's pretty darn heartbreaking to watch.

The only way i'd describe the farewell addition as heartbreaking was in that it was horrendously horrible/laughable and was heartbreaking the same way as seeing someone digging a bigger hole to try and get themselves out of an existing hole.

[GimmeDaGun]

dreamgazer wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

I have to ask did the ever say whether the breath scene meant shepard was alive and would meet his LI

About as close as you'll probably get: http://social.biowar...758618#12758842

Man, I clicked on your link and there I followed Tully's link to the EC spoiler thread, just out of curiosity. Every second post there were about how people wanted to be with their (their? thought it was the in game character's) LI and how Bioware ruined their experience and/or their lives because they did not get a LI reunion scene in there. And of course tons of mindless rage. Reading those post now remind me of how annoying bsn used to be back then. Whenever I started to post about my ideas and thoughts about the game and its different features and themes (ending included), someone would have immediately jumped on it and started raging about the game's ending and the lack of LI, closure, sense, whatever (no matter what the initial topic was). Some of it was totally ok and within reason, but most of it was just simple butthurt rage... and they could not stand the thought that there were others who enjoyed the game and the ending of it. 

My favourit quote from that thread... it made me laugh a bit:

"It pretty much proves most of the 'movement' in the end was what the denied to be: BLUE BABIES ENDING PLZers. They got what they asked for, but they just want to see their LI. In fact, i'd venture to say most of them would be happy if all the 1.9 gigs was, was a sex scene."

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 30 janvier 2014 - 07:08 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I didn't play Leviathan, but I made a bowl of popcorn and watched the entire thing on Youtube in the middle of my EC play through. Yes someone had actually made a Youtube exactly the way I'd have played the DLC -- renegade femShep.

I hated the original endings because they were the end of the MEU. If you hadn't heard the explanation from Bioware at the Comicon afterward you wouldn't have known otherwise.

1) You may have gotten the breath scene -- I did. (or you died)
2) in all three endings the mass relays were destroyed. -- that's what Starbrat said.
3) the Normandy crashed and was stranded on a planet somewhere.

Was everyone going to starve to death? Was anyone even alive? What is once seen cannot be unseen.

The EC did not erase that memory. "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose." Leviathan: stupid giant cuttlefish good for sauteing in garlic and herbs. The first Galactic Darwin Award.

Still, the Reapers did at least one good thing: they built the mass relays, and provided a buttload of tech knowledge. Unfortunately they had to go and kill everyone.

I found the ending totally unsatisfying.

@ GimmeDaGun -- You don't f*** with waifus. That's serious business. lol.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 30 janvier 2014 - 06:45 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

wright1978 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The EC also retconned the relay destruction, and gave us more finality with the squad/LI. I like the memorial scene. Also the farewell scene at the beam was added with the EC, and it's pretty darn heartbreaking to watch.

The only way i'd describe the farewell addition as heartbreaking was in that it was horrendously horrible/laughable and was heartbreaking the same way as seeing someone digging a bigger hole to try and get themselves out of an existing hole.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who disliked that scene. I think it's the only time I ever yelled at the screen while playing a video game.

To say it breaks the tone is a bit of an understatement.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

1) You may have gotten the breath scene -- I did. (or you died)
2) in all three endings the mass relays were destroyed. -- that's what Starbrat said.
3) the Normandy crashed and was stranded on a planet somewhere.

I'm still pushing for point 2 in a sequel. Yeah, dream on.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
It's the assumption that "vague and unclear" was the only problem people had with the endings.  That it was teh only concern worth addressing.  That there was no problem with the quality, or the message (real or implied) that it delivered. 

They're allowed to think that the message was OK even if some of us didn't like it. Nobody ever said we all had to like the message.

And "vague and unclear" is a quality issue itself, isn't it?

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 06:57 .

[Mathias]

dreamgazer wrote...


We literally see the entire floor bombarded with a massive piece of debris, and Shepard just standing there less than a second before impact after saying "Go!". Factor in Shepard's entirely organic state at that point, and it's not all that different of a situation: entire area was leveled, yet everyone survived because reasons.  

I know but rubble isn't the same as an explosion. It's deadly but people survive being buried under their homes in areas that suffer from brutal Earthquakes. I'm just saying there were areas to take cover in the room they were in. Right before the debris crash through you can see that Shepard and Co. aren't at the bottom of the Council Chamber. I can assume Shepard probably dove back under. I'm sure  N7 soldier can manage to dive out of the way in 2-3 seconds.

But with Destroy we see him suffer through 2 explosions, and getting hit with an energy wave that was "in theory" suppose to kill him. He should be dead, over and over and over again.

Shepard's brain being rebooted with all memories intact wasn't explained at all, and most of the rest of Lazarus wasn't either, really.  If you're going to question biology in the writing, like CyborgShep getting engulfed by the blast like many action heroes have endured in the past before stumbling to safety, then you should probably do it thoroughly.  

I don't have to question every single detail. It's a science fiction universe in the future. If the writers say that in the distant future they have the advanced technology (alien even) to restore people's memories, then who am I to tell them "No that can't happen in your universe".

But one thing I do know about the Mass Effect universe is that people can be killed by gunfire, explosions, etc.  So if they establish that in their universe, and then I see Shepard get engulfed in an explosion on screen, suffer through another one and then survives that, I call BS.

Also, there's a lot of "off-screen" time there---if the ending is to the taken in earnest, around a minute or two---where Shepard could have braced for impact in a contingency or makeshift safety area or some other bullshit heroic explanation (like one has to do with ME1's ending).  I'm not a fan of the execution either, really, but it's certainly not much of a leap given this universe.

The first explosion we literally see it take his entire body. The flames cover him from head to toe. This is not something that happens off screen. Even if he survived that first explosion, I highly doubt that within a minute or two, he regained conciousness, and instead of wailing in paralyzing pain over the agony of his horrible charred body, he someone managed to crawl to a "safe zone" that protected him from the following blast. It's way waaaaay shottier than ME1's ending.

Modifié par Mdoggy1214, 30 janvier 2014 - 08:29 .

[CronoDragoon]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

But one thing I do know about the Mass Effect universe is that people can be killed by gunfire, explosions, etc.  So if they establish that in their universe, and then I see Shepard get engulfed in an explosion on screen, suffer through another one and then survives that, I call BS.

Because something can happen it must happen?

[dreamgazer]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...


I know but rubble isn't the same as an explosion. It's deadly but people survive being buried under their homes in areas that suffer from brutal Earthquakes. I'm just saying there were areas to take cover in the room they were in. Right before the debris crash through you can see that Shepard and Co. aren't at the bottom of the Council Chamber. I can assume Shepard probably dove back under. I'm sure  N7 soldier can manage to dive out of the way in 2-3 seconds.

That's not really the same situation, given the debris' size, speed, location, and direction, and Shepard's lack of adequate response time. 

But with Destroy we see him suffer through 2 explosions, and getting hit with an energy wave that was "in theory" suppose to kill him. He should be dead, over and over and over again.

Never stated that it would actually kill him, only speculated by the Catalyst in a secondhand fashion, and you only see Shepard actually suffering through one of the blasts.  Everything else exists in the same space as ducking out of the way of a massive Reaper fragment trampling the entire Council Chamber: can't see it, but you'll believe it.

Shepard's brain being rebooted with all memories intact wasn't explained at all, and most of the rest of Lazarus wasn't either, really.  If you're going to question biology in the writing, like CyborgShep getting engulfed by the blast like many action heroes have endured in the past before stumbling to safety, then you should probably do it thoroughly.  

I don't have to question every single detail. It's a science fiction universe in the future. If the writers say that in the distant future they have the advanced technology (alien even) to restore people's memories, then who am I to tell them "No that can't happen in your universe".

Oh, then you should be alright with the writers showing that a Lazarus subject could survive those blasts.  Both are physiologically "impossible"; in fact, with Shepard's upgrades, one could make the argument that organic brain rejuvenation is even more implausible than a weakened Shepard using his tactical knowledge to find a spot to weather those blasts.

But one thing I do know about the Mass Effect universe is that people can be killed by gunfire, explosions, etc.  So if they establish that in their universe, and then I see Shepard get engulfed in an explosion on screen, suffer through another one and then survives that, I call BS.

People also survive through those things in this universe, too.  (shrug)

Also, there's a lot of "off-screen" time there---if the ending is to the taken in earnest, around a minute or two---where Shepard could have braced for impact in a contingency or makeshift safety area or some other bullshit heroic explanation (like one has to do with ME1's ending).  I'm not a fan of the execution either, really, but it's certainly not much of a leap given this universe.

The first explosion we literally see it take his entire body. The flames cover him from head to toe. This is not something that happens off screen. Even if he survived that first explosion, I highly doubt that within a minute or two, he regained conciousness, and instead of wailing in paralyzing pain over the agony of his horrible charred body, he someone managed to crawl to a "safe zone" that protected him from the following blast. It's way waaaaay shottier than ME1's ending.

Depends on how well shields could cushion the blow, let alone how Shepard's upgraded body (skin, bone, muscle) could withstand the rest of the impact.   Remember, you're not working with OrganicShep anymore, and you use the same "avoid trauma" headcanon in ME1 that you're choosing not to employ in ME3. 

[CronoDragoon]

Fandango9641 wrote...

That's a fair point Crono, but what say you of the avalanche of BS that buries ME3's ending? I mean, I'm more than willing to handwave away the odd story contrivance for the greater good, but there's next to nothing about ME3's endgame that makes sense to me. It's flat out nonsensical.

There's really no way I've found to consolidate all the ending's BS that actually matters into a coherent narrative. That topic on the articles trying to make sense of the Catalyst and Crucible really just illustrate this: every time he makes a point using in-game evidence, there's another quote or fact that seems to contradict it. I'm obviously willing to let silly stuff slide that doesn't matter, like Shepard surviving the rubble or Harbinger not shooting the Normandy, but when it gets to the big-picture stuff I really need it to make sense, which it doesn't.

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

That's a fair point Crono, but what say you of the avalanche of BS that buries ME3's ending? I mean, I'm more than willing to handwave away the odd story contrivance for the greater good, but there's next to nothing about ME3's endgame that makes sense to me. It's flat out nonsensical.

There's really no way I've found to consolidate all the ending's BS that actually matters into a coherent narrative. That topic on the articles trying to make sense of the Catalyst and Crucible really just illustrate this: every time he makes a point using in-game evidence, there's another quote or fact that seems to contradict it. I'm obviously willing to let silly stuff slide that doesn't matter, like Shepard surviving the rubble or Harbinger not shooting the Normandy, but when it gets to the big-picture stuff I really need it to make sense, which it doesn't.

I can generally bullshit my away around most piddly things, in case that wasn't obvious with the above.

I can't even come close to doing so with the application of Synthesis.  Those who choose it can enjoy themselves.

[CronoDragoon]

Fandango9641 wrote...

I feel you dude - I recently replayed the game for the second - and last - time (the first time was before the EC was released) and was shaking my heads throughout priority earth. It's ****** poor from start to finish. Such a shame.

I have my criticisms about Earth but overall I enjoyed it. Up to the ending the fantastic character moments outweighed the head-scratching. I support the Normandy pick-up scene because the emotional gravitas of the moment puts logic on the backburner.

With that being said my god the ending. In actuality when I first saw the Catalyst my reaction wasn't "what the hell?" but rather, "Oh no, BioWare is about to go full-retard nonsensical JRPG ending." I'm one of the guys that enjoyed literally every aspect of ME3 up until then. I would have told you BioWare could have done no wrong and were masters of their craft. In that respect at least the ending brought me back to reality, but ME3 is still a top-10 all-time game to me.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 30 janvier 2014 - 09:32 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Not having played any JRPGs, and hitting this ending at 3:00 with a Shepard that just wanted TIM to get the f*** out of her way, and was in no mood to **** around. Then she meets this glowboy at 3:10 a.m. and I'm like WTF? I want to blow these things up, get the **** out of my way.

Regardless, Shepard was supposed to live in the high EMS ending. That's why we got that breath scene. The writing team felt the endings were otherwise too bleak and wanted to leave us with some hope, but still it wasn't an absolute commitment. Russian endings tend to be bleak and everyone dies or lives on in total misery. French endings are typically open, or rather used to be with no ending at all. This was an ending where the writers just couldn't bring themselves to make an absolute commitment.

You know this leaves the door open for a return of Shepard in the future. You know that. The door isn't shut tight no matter how much they say it is, because they didn't make a commitment in the ending.

[wright1978]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Not having played any JRPGs, and hitting this ending at 3:00 with a Shepard that just wanted TIM to get the f*** out of her way, and was in no mood to **** around. Then she meets this glowboy at 3:10 a.m. and I'm like WTF? I want to blow these things up, get the **** out of my way.

Regardless, Shepard was supposed to live in the high EMS ending. That's why we got that breath scene. The writing team felt the endings were otherwise too bleak and wanted to leave us with some hope, but still it wasn't an absolute commitment. Russian endings tend to be bleak and everyone dies or lives on in total misery. French endings are typically open, or rather used to be with no ending at all. This was an ending where the writers just couldn't bring themselves to make an absolute commitment.

You know this leaves the door open for a return of Shepard in the future. You know that. The door isn't shut tight no matter how much they say it is, because they didn't make a commitment in the ending.

I think it was touch of amiguity rather than life they were going for. They were too attached to their three flavours of suicide to let anything else substantive through sadly.

[AlanC9]

Then why did they flag the clip internally as Shepard_Alive?

[wright1978]

AlanC9 wrote...

Then why did they flag the clip internally as Shepard_Alive?

So you think the head writer and producer sat down and worked out the naming convention of  every file and weighed the implications of said name? I'd personally suggest the call came down that maybe there should be a touch of ambiguity as to whether  Shep was dead and it got labelled Shep_alive. If they really cared about it as a ending it would have received proper attention in the EC. Instead it got a barest of light touches to ensure it wasn't completely contradicted by the memorial scene.

[AlanC9]

 Or they thought the meaning was completely obvious and didn't need to be addressed by the EC. When you read the pre-EC threads only a handful of posters took the position that the clip didn't mean that Shepard survived, and some of them were ranting nutjobs. This thread's fairly typical.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 10:54 .

[wright1978]

AlanC9 wrote...

 Or they thought the meaning was completely obvious and didn't need to be addressed by the EC. When you read the pre-EC threads only a handful of posters took the position that the clip didn't mean that Shepard didn't survive. This thread's fairly typical.

So a big memorial for Shep's death and nothing for him alive was just a big accident.
I certainly remember seeing and taking part in raging threads that dealt with the lack of closure and clarity of the breath scene as much as any of the other endings.

[SwobyJ]

Shepard is effectively dead in our Mass Effect Universe, no matter the ending.

Just some characters realize something else is up.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 30 janvier 2014 - 10:55 .

[AlanC9]

wright1978 wrote...

I certainly remember seeing and taking part in raging threads that dealt with the lack of closure and clarity of the breath scene as much as any of the other endings.

Could you find a couple of those for me? Every time I look at this stuff it's exactly the way I remember it. Am I looking at the wrong threads?

Edit: I don't really mean to argue about whether the meaning really is obvious -- that can be fun, but it's not the point. The question is whether Bio thought the meaning was obvious enough to not waste time on. They could just be wrong about that

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 10:58 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

 Or they thought the meaning was completely obvious and didn't need to be addressed by the EC. When you read the pre-EC threads only a handful of posters took the position that the clip didn't mean that Shepard survived, and some of them were ranting nutjobs. This thread's fairly typical.

Then they were wrong.

And how many were asking for a reunion scene?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Some people simply wanted something more obvious than the breath scene. Honestly I can't blame them. It was really half-assed.

But the intent was definitely that Shepard survived the high EMS ending. That was pretty obvious to me even in the original ending. The issue of "you mean you sacrificed the Geth for your own survival? You monster!!!" came up. My response was, "What Geth? I shot Legion." To which I received even more "You monster!!!" But I didn't want Tali to die. Ah, so I'd commit genocide for Tali, and thus get rewarded by surviving the ending, and punished by never seeing Liara again.

@ iakus, let's not forget the 300 page thread asking for paid non-canon DLC with a reunion scene. This from the people who brought us "The Darkspawn Chronicles."

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 30 janvier 2014 - 11:49 .