79 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

ME3 had more written lines for than the first two games as there is a reported 40,000 lines, but the interactivity in dialogue felt lesser than the first two games which is one of my main criticisms of ME3. I did not enjoy the dialogue as much as I did in ME1 and 2 as the chatacters did not have much to say that interested me that much. I enjoyed the dialogue with Kaidan though.  The dialogue written and presented was not so meaningful or memorable compared to ME1 and 2.

I mostly have problems with Shepard's dialogue as most of what Shepard says is meaningless and a bit hard to bare hearing such as "Hoah" and Shepard's final speech to his crew on Earth which pales in comparrison to his other speeches. I was not a fan of how much auto-dialogue that was used over the amount of dialogue you could choose, it felt like Bioware relyed too much on it. I am guessing Bioware will plan to use it again in future Mass Effect games, I just hope it is less than what was used in ME3 and I can go back to feeling like I was part of conversation.

The lack of dialogue options did not help either, this dampaned the replay value as I was offered only a small amount of dialogue options to choose from, I do not know if Bioware knows this a problem with gamers. The auto-dialogue pretty much took over Shepard and assumed its own identity over Shepard, which felt frustrating at times. I don't know if Bioware will continue in the direction it took with ME3 of its auto-dialogue presentation into the next game which takes away from player agency and offers a more linear storyline with a lack of variety.

Modifié par Karlone123, 29 janvier 2014 - 03:45 .

[AlanC9]

Karlone123 wrote...

ME3 had more written lines for than the first two games as there is a reported 40,000 lines, but the interactivity in dialogue felt lesser than the first two games which is one of my main criticisms of ME3. 

The earlier games had a lot of interactions with the wheel that didn't do anything. More investigate options, multiple  fake choices that all lead to Shepard saying the same thing no matter what you pick, etc. Some of what you're responding to is an illusion.

[grey_wind]

I actually think the autodialogue could have worked, but it was simply used in all the wrong places.

For example, Shep didn't need two options to discuss how to attack the Reaper on Tuchanka; that's a military strategy that is going to be consistent between Paragons and Renegades and can be written in a neutral tone without breaking the character consistency of any player's Shepard. Where Shepard needed multiple options was when he has to give an opinion on something, like the fall of Thessia.

But the whole autodialogue goof-up just underlines the bigger problem: the incredibly limited word budget was mishandled.

As much as fans love Padok Wiks, he embodies the same core values as Mordin, unlike Wreav or the Geth VI. He is a Mordin substitute in the most literal sense. Giving him as much dialogue as Mordin shouldn't have been a priority.
Then there are other smaller things, like giving every character on the ship 10 different variations of "Can't talk right now". Was that really necessary?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I always thought the auto dialogue was more of a game play issue than a story/characterization one. The original draw of the series, or so I thought, was that you got to use the dialogue wheel and it made the talking parts more immersive which was a nifty way to get through exposition and conversations. In ME3 the dialogue parts just feel different because they play out more like cut scenes that you watch, rather than play and push buttons.

[Nightwriter]

The tyranny of the word budget.

[AlanC9]

grey_wind wrote...


But the whole autodialogue goof-up just underlines the bigger problem: the incredibly limited word budget was mishandled.

Incredibly limited? How do you figure that?

[grey_wind]

AlanC9 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...


But the whole autodialogue goof-up just underlines the bigger problem: the incredibly limited word budget was mishandled.

Incredibly limited? How do you figure that?

Poor choice of words on my part. I meant it was just sparse compared to what BioWare's ambition wanted to realize, I guess.

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The earlier games had a lot of interactions with the wheel that didn't do anything. More investigate options, multiple  fake choices that all lead to Shepard saying the same thing no matter what you pick, etc. Some of what you're responding to is an illusion.

1 had a lot of examples of that. 2 didn't.

2 didn't have many of the fake wheel options, but there were quite a few  conversations which didn't have any actual decisions from the player except for the order of hearing the investigate options. ME3 would have done these as autodialogue. The only downside I can see to doing such a conversation as autodialogue is that sometimes an investigate option is just stupid, and other times asking the question is meaningful,. But most of the time the investigate options don't express anything.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If you're going to go down the "investigate tree" anyway, why not just include them in the conversation and only pause it when it comes to a decision you have to make about the information.

[dreamgazer]

None of the speeches have been good, and they're all driven by autodialogue. Let's be honest here.

And I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that most of what Shepard says is "meaningless".

[txgoldrush]

Karlone123 wrote...

ME3 had more written lines for than the first two games as there is a reported 40,000 lines, but the interactivity in dialogue felt lesser than the first two games which is one of my main criticisms of ME3. I did not enjoy the dialogue as much as I did in ME1 and 2 as the chatacters did not have much to say that interested me that much. I enjoyed the dialogue with Kaidan though.  The dialogue written and presented was not so meaningful or memorable compared to ME1 and 2.

I mostly have problems with Shepard's dialogue as most of what Shepard says is meaningless and a bit hard to bare hearing such as "Hoah" and Shepard's final speech to his crew on Earth which pales in comparrison to his other speeches. I was not a fan of how much auto-dialogue that was used over the amount of dialogue you could choose, it felt like Bioware relyed too much on it. I am guessing Bioware will plan to use it again in future Mass Effect games, I just hope it is less than what was used in ME3 and I can go back to feeling like I was part of conversation.

The lack of dialogue options did not help either, this dampaned the replay value as I was offered only a small amount of dialogue options to choose from, I do not know if Bioware knows this a problem with gamers. The auto-dialogue pretty much took over Shepard and assumed its own identity over Shepard, which felt frustrating at times. I don't know if Bioware will continue in the direction it took with ME3 of its auto-dialogue presentation into the next game which takes away from player agency and offers a more linear storyline with a lack of variety.

Rose colored glasses...

Sorry, but ME1's dialogue is pretty bad in a lot of places, the worst in the series. Doubly so for Renegade. Hell, The Old Republics dialogue is better than ME1.

ME2's moments come in charm and intimidate, however once again, Renegade sucks, but ME2 is an improvement overall.

And you are so very wrong to even say ME3's dialogue from Shepard is meaningless. In fact, his or her dialogue is not only the strongest in the series, he or she says things that will be important to the plot. In fact, ME3's dialogue is by FAR more natural than the first two games and far more human. And auto dialogue works people. We do not need to choose all of Shepards lines. The Citadel DLC is an utter and complete victory for auto-dialogue. Nevermind Renegade dialogue is a VAST improvement over the first two games. No longer is Shepard in Stupid Evil territory. Hell, the first two games go to Sith Empire Dark Side territory with the Renegade. It was that dumb, with Shepard even taking away moral justification for Renegade actions with moral justification due to bad anti hero dialogue. ME3 finally does renegade right, and its far more consistent with the character.

[txgoldrush]

dreamgazer wrote...

None of the speeches have been good, and they're all driven by autodialogue. Let's be honest here.

And I respectfully disagree with the suggestion that most of what Shepard says is "meaningless".

ME3's speech actually foreshadows the ending, Shepard was dead on saying the Reapers do not understand life. So in a way, its important.

Bioware needs to get rid of the tone wheel (except TOR, which needs it). And really, all ME3 did was get rid of the tone wheel, instead be all about viewpoints, which is what Paragon and Renegade are about, not attitude.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 29 janvier 2014 - 11:51 .

[wright1978]

I despised the vast expansion of the percentage of Shep's dialogue that was handed over to auto-dialogue. It was completely against the very nature of player agency in its intrusiveness. Player characterisation is a central plank of why I've historically bought bioware games and to have that plank virtually sawed off in the final installment was galling. The level of auto-dialogue will probably determine my future investment in further installments.

[Fixers0]

I keep saying it: When offset agains the total amount of dialogue wheels present the amount of times in the first Mass Effect  thall all dialogue options woud lead to the same result is insignificant.

Then again, regardless of people's arguments my point still stands: In Mass Effect 3, due to autodialogue and streamlining i can't control Shepard's dialogue in the same manner as before.

Modifié par Fixers0, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:00 .

[Lhawke]

Unfortunately Shepard expressed a lot of opinions which did not match her personality that I played on the two previous games. She cared about things that should have been a choice to or not.
Throwing guns in a temper, being upset, looking like she was going to burst into tears. I would have preferred to have had control over this and Shepard's opinions/emotions.
I prefer slightly stilted dialogue than cinematic custscenes where the character I am supposed to control just does what it likes.

[CronoDragoon]

Lhawke wrote...
Throwing guns in a temper, being upset, looking like she was going to burst into tears. I would have preferred to have had control over this and Shepard's opinions/emotions.

I don't remember this ever happening.

ME3's dialogue had less interactivity, but the complaints about it are way overblown. Ideally in ME4 BioWare can include a few more dialogue wheels while maintaining the quality of ME3's dialogue lines.

[GimmeDaGun]

While I was mostly content with ME3's script and writing style, the decreased number of dialogue options in most key moments was one of the biggest cons of the game for me.

I'm aware that both Mass 1 and 2 had a fair share of autodialogue and fake dialogue-wheels, but they still had a lot wider variety of dialogue options in most cases. From a role-playing point of view those games were a lot better. No matter how much I like ME3, it was lot more fun to Shepard in the other two due to this aspect. While it is still possible to keep the Shepard I "kind of" define as a character, it is a lot harder to do so in ME3.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:19 .

[AlanC9]

I didn't mean to imply upthread that there was no issue at all; merely that it's generally overstated.

But I don't see any good fixes that don't involve waving our magic wands for more zots.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 janvier 2014 - 05:55 .

[IoCaster]

Honestly, I'd rather have the ME dialogue wheel of same response than an actual fake (non-choice) choice. On Thessia you get a couple of those that I thought were truly annoying. It's easy to see why they did it, but holy crap did that suck.

[JamesFaith]

Lhawke wrote...

Throwing guns in a temper, being upset, looking like she was going to burst into tears. I would have preferred to have had control over this and Shepard's opinions/emotions.

Same problems was in ME1.

Remember scene with Shepard resignation before finish of Romance, when he leaned at wall and slided down on the ground? My Shepard would never do this he would hit that wall in anger and frustration, yet this emotional state was forced to me.

People just often overlooked this forced emotions because they seemingly corresponded their ideas of the current situation. But when these reactions differ, suddenly "new" problem is here.

[Karlone123]

I prefer there to be more options in dialogue, and for it to be memorable as ME3 was not so memorable. It came down to characters trying too hard or not at all. And it is one of the reasons I rate ME3 poor. It didn't do a lot of things right at all.

[txgoldrush]

Karlone123 wrote...

I prefer there to be more options in dialogue, and for it to be memorable as ME3 was not so memorable. It came down to characters trying too hard or not at all. And it is one of the reasons I rate ME3 poor. It didn't do a lot of things right at all.

No, it does it better than the first two games because the dialogue flows much better because not only do characters act like characters and not talking codex entries, but the protagonist actually has character development and personality that usual WRPG protagonists do not have.

Nevermind that in ME3, I no longer have Shepard do Renegade actions For The Evulz when I want him to do them for the greater good.

[Lhawke]

JamesFaith wrote...

Lhawke wrote...

Throwing guns in a temper, being upset, looking like she was going to burst into tears. I would have preferred to have had control over this and Shepard's opinions/emotions.

Same problems was in ME1.

Remember scene with Shepard resignation before finish of Romance, when he leaned at wall and slided down on the ground? My Shepard would never do this he would hit that wall in anger and frustration, yet this emotional state was forced to me.

People just often overlooked this forced emotions because they seemingly corresponded their ideas of the current situation. But when these reactions differ, suddenly "new" problem is here.

That is true, I had forgotten about that. However that was one scene of which type did not seem to be repeated in me2 that I can remember.  I did not approve of that either but as I said it was one scene not worh making a fuss over. Me3 has just gone overboard and made it difficult to play my renegade Shepard.

Shepard upset expression (looking like she was about to cry)  and reluctance to answer the communication from the asari councilor was probably the worst case. Fortunately I can alt-tab out of that scene and the puppy dog eyes scene after mars.
Lack of dialogue options and lack of control over emotional responses were more of a problem for me than the ending.