54 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

Blah blah blah....Arcian, if you have nothing insightful to add to the conversation you will be reported for attempting to derail the thread.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 29 janvier 2014 - 06:32 .

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...


But it creates other discrepancies that are just as big: if the Catalyst is letting organics build the Crucible in search of a better solution, then why are the Reapers trying to destroy it in the battle for Earth?

I'm more willing to let the plot hole with the splinter factions stand and simply assume that it's only after the Crucible docks that the Catalyst realizes he is going to lose: either in this cycle or the next. The history of the cycles has shown a pattern of organics becoming progressively more competent at overcoming the cycles, and so he decides a new solution is needed, and that for some reason or another Shepard needs to be the one to pick it.

This still seems to be the fatal flaw in the argument. If...

The answer must be that Shepard making the choice at the Crucible is part of the Catalyst’s experiment.

... then it makes no sense for the Reapers to actively try to remove choices, which they can and will do in low-EMS conditions.

[Arcian]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Blah blah blah....Arcian, if you have nothing insightful to add to the conversation you will be reported for attempting to derail the thread.

If you don't want to have your opinions and views challenged, don't make threads about them. This is the BSN, not the BioWare Yes-Men Congregation.

[GimmeDaGun]

Arcian wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Arcian wrote...

The in-game information is completely illogical so how could you possibly come to a logical conclusion by basing it on said aforementioned nonsense?

Well...errr... by using my brain and interpreting the things I see, hear and read in the game? Somehow it worked for me... on top of that, it worked for me even with the quite lacking original ending too. So, yeah... 

Meh...the butthurt is strong with that one. It's hard to understand logic when your head's buried in the sand. Don't even feed him.

Logic is not subjective. If you thought the Catalyst made sense, that just means you were wrong.

From an objectively logical... or is it logically objective?!... ok, lets just say "objective" person like you, I take this as a compliment. 

[Mcfly616]

Arcian wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Blah blah blah....Arcian, if you have nothing insightful to add to the conversation you will be reported for attempting to derail the thread.

If you don't want to have your opinions and views challenged, don't make threads about them. This is the BSN, not the BioWare Yes-Men Congregation.

you haven't challenged anything. Don't give yourself that much credit. All you did was say that there was no logic to be found in the game(twice...as if we didn't see your previous post and ignore it. Must be a cry for attention), you used nothing to support your claim. If anything you're the one chiming in just to say "your opinion is wrong because it's not the same as mine". So, as I said: feel free to actually support your claim with some insight. Otherwise I will report you for attempting to derail the thread with your nonsense.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:00 .

[Mcfly616]

AlanC9 wrote...


... then it makes no sense for the Reapers to actively try to remove choices, which they can and will do in low-EMS conditions.

my interpretation of this theory is that I don't think it had to be Shepard specifically, as if the Catalyst had chosen him or something. It just ultimately ends up being him because he was the best of us (if he couldn't do it, maybe it couldn't be done. Who knows). The Catalyst needed someone. Whoever and whenever someone made it to that point, they would fulfill the final act of the experiment. 

Also, imo it does make sense that the Reapers actively try to destroy the Crucible. They are only instruments of the experiment, and the point of the experiment is to find a civilization that is worthy and capable of making sure the torch of life burns on and doesn't get extinguished without the guidance of the Catalyst and the Reaper Cycles. Said Civilization has to create the Crucible, dock it with the Citadel, and fire it in order to pass the test. For the Reapers to allow this to happen would defeat the purpose entirely. It must be earned.

[Farangbaa]

I like this.

[JasonShepard]

CronoDragoon wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...
That's debatable.

In order for it to be debatable we'd need to completely discredit Drew K's books, in particular Retribution, which details quite clearly the ability for the Reapers to search through the memories of indoctrinated servants, in particular Paul Grayson.

Fair point - I had forgotten about Retribution. That is a very specific type of indoctrination though, being directly infected with Reaper nanites. (Star Trek's Borg say hi.)

Since we don't know everything about Indoctrination, I still prefer to avoid making assumptions. It's not critical though - as HYR 2.0 said, even if the Catalyst knew about the Crucible since Mars, before then it could have believed the Crucible designs had been eradicated.

StreetMagic wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...

It did say it controlled the Reapers, admitted to being the very example of problem it was created to stop (synthetics killing their creators), and was the cause of over a billion years' worth of death and destruction.  It was very clear to me.  My conclusion : Threat must be eliminated to ensure survival of current cycle.  Ending either blue/red.  Green is irrelevant.

I don't pick Control myself, but I always like you guys (Renegade or Paragon).

*Paragon Controller waves hello* 

[CronoDragoon]

JasonShepard wrote...
Since we don't know everything about Indoctrination, I still prefer to avoid making assumptions. It's not critical though - as HYR 2.0 said, even if the Catalyst knew about the Crucible since Mars, before then it could have believed the Crucible designs had been eradicated.

I'd say it's somewhat important because Vendetta says that the Reapers took the Citadel only after TIM informed them about the plans to use the Crucible. Had the Catalyst known about the Crucible since Mars, I think they would have captured and moved the Citadel towards the beginning of the game.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 29 janvier 2014 - 09:49 .

[JasonShepard]

CronoDragoon wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...
Since we don't know everything about Indoctrination, I still prefer to avoid making assumptions. It's not critical though - as HYR 2.0 said, even if the Catalyst knew about the Crucible since Mars, before then it could have believed the Crucible designs had been eradicated.

I'd say it's somewhat important because Vendetta says that the Reapers took the Citadel only after TIM informed them about the plans to use the Crucible. Had the Catalyst known about the Crucible since Mars, I think they would have captured and moved the Citadel towards the beginning of the game.

That wasn't information about the Crucible's existence, that was information that the Crucible required the Citadel to work. According to Vendetta, the Reapers were unaware of that detail, which is why he kept it secret. (Which is strange, since it seems unlikely that the Reapers never got a chance to study the Crucible plans during previous cycles, but meh.)

EDIT:
I suppose you could interpret it as the Reapers being fully aware of the Crucible needing the Citadel, but unaware that the Crucible was being built. Hence when TIM told them, they took the Citadel to stop it from being completed.

However, that causes some problems too, since the Crucible's existence is pretty much the galaxy's worst kept secret... (Wrex knows about it, Kirrahe does, a random Volus at the embassies, an Alliance soldier basically mentions it by name on an unsecured channel at the Citadel docks...)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 10:07 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

Don't stare into the plot abyss that is the Crucible.

[CosmicGnosis]

This is very similar to one of my oldest theories. I had a very literal interpretation of the Crucible, and speculated that it was part of a larger plan to test the galaxy. Even his Synthesis future sounds similar to my old theory. I proposed that there could be Reaper-esque cycles in many galaxies, and that the Synthesis solution is intended to uplift entire galaxies, eventually leading to the creation of a super-advanced and united universe.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 29 janvier 2014 - 10:10 .

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

If I have to doubt the Catalyst just to understand it, then there's no hope for me. If they want to use the last moments of the trilogy just to bullsh*t me further, then I'd need another game.

That's the case with this theory, or IT, or anything that doesn't take it at face value.

you can take them at face value. I sure do. However, just because I look someone in the face doesn't mean I can read their intentions or tell if they're being completely honest or maybe leaving something out. 

The Catalyst didn't want to taint it's experiment by giving Shepard unnecessary context. It needed the choice to be pure. Idk, the more I think about this theory, I feel like the Catalyst was somehow injecting caution into Shepard. Like "Destroy will blow me and my crayfish back to Hell....but, just keep in mind that synthetics will come back and you've seen the **** storm that causes. Just keep that in mind." 

[dorktainian]

if you assume that the catalyst is not starjar, but shepard then everything makes more sense.

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

The Catalyst didn't want to taint it's experiment
by giving Shepard unnecessary context.

I don't give those motivations to the Catalyst. I give them to Casey Hudson. He never mentions an experiment. He just wanted to "keep it high level". I think it had more to do with setting mood and pacing than anything.

what says they're motivations and not just calculated thought-processes? Why would Casey have to mention an experiment? It's mentioned in Leviathan DLC.

Casey doesn't have to say anything at all. Plenty of writers and directors have written ambiguous endings and never talk about them. Hell, some of them like it. Getting people wondering what the correct interpretation is, is sometimes the desired effect. Some never answer, their reasoning being "it would ruin it".

Whats weird is I just saw something discussing this sort of approach a couple days ago. I think it was titled "Movies you have to watch twice". Idk, I'll try to find the link....

[Mcfly616]

Well, I suppose it helps that I don't believe I'm being lied to. I just find the Catalyst interesting to speculate....

[BeastSaver]

Never mind. Lost track of what I wanted to say...seemed profound at the time...

Modifié par BeastSaver, 30 janvier 2014 - 12:47 .

[Obadiah]

I read the article, and I thought it was pretty interesting. I do like the idea of the Crucible as some sort of test for the cycle's readiness

I had to roll my eyes once the writer started saying that the Catalyst was lying, though. I try to force meaning and metaphor on to the ending just because it is so open to interpretation, but I really try not to contradict the plain literal understanding of what is depicted, just because it can get really weird really fast.

To me TIM's "control" by the Reapers comes down to the implants he took at the end to try to control the Reapers, but they instead used that communication link to control him. That would be when the Reapers learnt about the Crucible. He may have been indoctrinated before that (what with the giant unshielded embryo Reaper parts in the middle of his base, that was stoopid), but to me that just means exactly what the word "indoctrinated" means, that he was embracing their philosophy, if not their goals.

[AlanC9]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Also, imo it does make sense that the Reapers actively try to destroy the Crucible. They are only instruments of the experiment, and the point of the experiment is to find a civilization that is worthy and capable of making sure the torch of life burns on and doesn't get extinguished without the guidance of the Catalyst and the Reaper Cycles. Said Civilization has to create the Crucible, dock it with the Citadel, and fire it in order to pass the test. For the Reapers to allow this to happen would defeat the purpose entirely. It must be earned.

Hmm.... this moves the silliness over to where he tries to explain why the Catalyst really doesn't care if Destroy happens or not.

[Mcfly616]

AlanC9 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Also, imo it does make sense that the Reapers actively try to destroy the Crucible. They are only instruments of the experiment, and the point of the experiment is to find a civilization that is worthy and capable of making sure the torch of life burns on and doesn't get extinguished without the guidance of the Catalyst and the Reaper Cycles. Said Civilization has to create the Crucible, dock it with the Citadel, and fire it in order to pass the test. For the Reapers to allow this to happen would defeat the purpose entirely. It must be earned.

Hmm.... this moves the silliness over to where he tries to explain why the Catalyst really doesn't care if Destroy happens or not.

because they've still reached the "civilization benchmark" or have proven that they are capable of carrying on without the Reapers....how is that silly? Or am I missing something about his theory? (sorry, I can't pull it up right now)

[Han Shot First]

The author put a lot more thought into it than Bioware did. (pre-EC and Leviathan)

Bioware: "Oh crap, we need an ending. Quick...someone scribble on this napkin. Aaaaaand done. No peer review necessary."

And thus Glow Boy was born into the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:32 .

[AlanC9]

Mcfly616 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hmm.... this moves the silliness over to where he tries to explain why the Catalyst really doesn't care if Destroy happens or not.

because they've still reached the "civilization benchmark" or have proven that they are capable of carrying on without the Reapers....how is that silly? Or am I missing something about his theory? (sorry, I can't pull it up right now)

You're right. It's the whole theory that's silly, not these particular points.The benchmark is measuring industrial production and technical expertise, and how much of those a cycle has is wholly dependent on the timing of the Reaper invasion.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:58 .