55 réponses à ce sujet

[CosmicGnosis]

Even if you destroy the Collector Base in ME2, the galaxy still incorporates the Reaper Heart into the Crucible. Do people ever think about that? This is an actual part of a Reaper corpse, and the scientists and engineers successfully harness its power. Doesn't this invalidate every argument which advocates for the rejection of Reaper tech for fear that it will indoctrinate and corrupt everyone? 

[CrutchCricket]

Reaper tech incorporated into Cerberus base.

Cerberus.

These guys:



lolwut?

[His Name was HYR!!]

 I liked the play on words in war-assets terminal: blow the base = heart; keep the base = brain.

[SwobyJ]

This amuses me.

[Artifex_Imperius]

they'll use the tech. like the thanix. if synthesis will make some stronger why not. it may not be for every body. but if it offers advantages some will take it.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:40 .

[CrutchCricket]

Thanix was reverse-engineered. Contains no Reaper parts.

Artifex_Imperius wrote...
if synthesis will make some stronger why not. it may not be for every body. but if it offers advantages some will take it.

Oh boy.

May not be for everybody? Tough **** if you've got a beam-jumper on your hands.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 janvier 2014 - 04:42 .

[SwobyJ]

Everyone, build the Crucible. It'll kill the Reapers! Adding Reaper parts only makes it better. Yep

[CosmicGnosis]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Reaper tech incorporated into Cerberus base.

Cerberus.

These guys:



lolwut?

Yeah, this obviously didn't happen to the Crucible builders, who apparently used it wisely. Cerberus didn't use it wisely.

[Obadiah]

There is definitely a notion of using the Reaper's technology on your own terms in Mass Effect.

[CrutchCricket]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Yeah, this obviously didn't happen to the Crucible builders, who apparently used it wisely.

The Crucible isn't Reaper tech. It's... art.

Obadiah wrote...

There is definitely a notion of using the Reaper's technology on your own terms in Mass Effect.

Once you've broken it down and made it your own, sure. Straight up using handouts always ends badly.

[SwobyJ]

Art huh.. I like it.

[Obadiah]

Ugh, posted to wrong thread.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 janvier 2014 - 02:16 .

[Obadiah]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

There is definitely a notion of using the Reaper's technology on your own terms in Mass Effect.

Once you've broken it down and made it your own, sure. Straight up using handouts always ends badly.

That's probably a valid way of looking at it, but I don't see it as a "straight up" hand-out. I see it as a negotiated end.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 janvier 2014 - 02:19 .

[Excella Gionne]

Every technology is derived from Reaper Tech.

[SwobyJ]

johnnythao89 wrote...

Every technology is derived from Reaper Tech.

Every tech by the point of ME1 is derived from Reaper Tech, yes.

But the record until recently has overtly shown that using Reaper Tech, directly, itself, is something different. It's 'of' the Reapers, not 'by' the Reapers.

Thus the surprise that nothing bad seems to happen when we put, say a Reaper Brain (even a partially done one) inside something people may have a lot of exposure to.

[CrutchCricket]

Obadiah wrote...
That's probably a valid way of looking at it, but I don't see it as a "straight up" hand-out. I see it as a negotiated end.

If you just take the tech and use it, it is a hand-out. There's nothing negotiated about the Citadel trap or about Cerberus indoctrination.

It's been shown consistently that merely using the tech leads to negative consequences, either directly (Cerberus, geth heretics and geth under Reaper control) or indirectly (the complacency of stagnation "you develop along the paths we desire" etc).

However deconstructing the tech and rebuilding it on your own terms averts that and is shown to be beneficial (Conduit, thanix, EDI)

Post-destroy it might not matter because the negative consequences were at the will of their masters, and they're gone for good.

[SwobyJ]

Mostly agreed Crutch. I do think there are degrees, but those shades of grey are what can complicate into disaster.

Run into it and spend time around it --> Probably screwed
Obtain it and contain it --> Maybe screwed but might help something
Keep it but negotiate the use of it --> Possibly screwed but may end up in some good results
Keep it at distance and reverse engineer it --> Probably helpful but might backfire
Using its principles for our own new tech --> Still going down Reaper lines, but largely beneficial

Control is right in the middle and is the risky decision it depicts itself as, but is also something I can't outright condemn as its place in a Bioware story (BW stories usually don't just ruin someone for a decision except when it's very clear).

[BeastSaver]

The Citadel is Reaper tech. The relays are Reaper tech. Anything based on what was left behind by the Protheans, if not actually Reaper tech, is based on Reaper tech.

[shodiswe]

CrutchCricket wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Yeah, this obviously didn't happen to the Crucible builders, who apparently used it wisely.

The Crucible isn't Reaper tech. It's... art.

Obadiah wrote...

There is definitely a notion of using the Reaper's technology on your own terms in Mass Effect.

Once you've broken it down and made it your own, sure. Straight up using handouts always ends badly.

Which is what Legion did, reverseengineered the reaperupgrades and distributed them.

It seem to be something of a theme in Mass Effect.

[Obadiah]

CrutchCricket wrote...
...
It's been shown consistently that merely using the tech leads to negative consequences, either directly (Cerberus, geth heretics and geth under Reaper control) or indirectly (the complacency of stagnation "you develop along the paths we desire" etc).
...

These examples don't support your claim as a rule:
- Cerberus definitely deconstructed the Reaper tech in an attempt to use it.
- I don't think the Heretics got anything other than the chance to worship and follow their god.
- The Geth in ME3 is the only example of "accepting" Reaper tech and it turning out badly.

The complacency of stagnation would apply to any tech accepted from anyone, not just the Reapers, IF it was a valid rule.

[CrutchCricket]

Obadiah wrote...
These examples don't support your claim as a rule:
- Cerberus definitely deconstructed the Reaper tech in an attempt to use it.
- I don't think the Heretics got anything other than the chance to worship and follow their god.
- The Geth in ME3 is the only example of "accepting" Reaper tech and it turning out badly.

The complacency of stagnation would apply to any tech accepted from anyone, not just the Reapers, IF it was a valid rule.

-No they didn't. The example in the OP aside, the implants in TIM and his army are pure Reaper tech. And should we bring up the Omega/adjutant situation?
-Dragon's teeth. Also the very Reaperish- looking altar things on Feros. But more importantly the heretics fundamentally differ from the true geth based on this philosophy. They're just waiting for Reaper tech. Besides, the virus in Legion's LM and the explanation for the different beliefs (the "math error') do make you wonder just why the heretics started coming to different conclusions.

And yes, complacency/stagnation is not a Reaper-specific effect. Another non-Reaper example of the follies of unearned tech is the krogan uplifting, as explained by Mordin. Though the effects are very different from complacency and the focus is on the giving as opposed to the receiving.

[CrutchCricket]

StreetMagic wrote...
Anyways, there are some of us who actually like the lines in ME2 about the Collector base being an abomination. I know a lot of people make fun of it, but they can kiss my ass. That's their decision. I had my own. To me, it defeated the purpose of my mission to use the base. The whole marketing slogan for ME2 was "Fight for the Lost". At the end, I discover the "lost" have been ground into paste and the best I can do is let them rest in peace or use their corpses. Now fast forward to ME3 and I'm willingly utilizing this stuff?

There are some who are more enraged by the use of "abomination" concepts but for my part I question the limiting of perspective its use entails. Why is something an abomination? Because it's repulsive to us? What claim to credibility does our viewpoint have over others that would not label it as such? Let's look only at what the base shows us-Reaper reproduction. If Reapers need organics to reproduce, than what we're seeing is merely parasitism. On a giant scale to be sure, but certainly nothing that's "a perversion of nature".


And proponents of keeping the base argue that the underlined isn't the best you can do. The dead are dead and can no longer be helped or harmed. The best you can do is use every advantage you can (including turning the tools of the enemy against them) to [paragon]make sure it never happens to anybody else again or [renengade] extract vengeance.

[Obadiah]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
These examples don't support your claim as a rule:
- Cerberus definitely deconstructed the Reaper tech in an attempt to use it.
- I don't think the Heretics got anything other than the chance to worship and follow their god.
- The Geth in ME3 is the only example of "accepting" Reaper tech and it turning out badly.

The complacency of stagnation would apply to any tech accepted from anyone, not just the Reapers, IF it was a valid rule.

-No they didn't. The example in the OP aside, the implants in TIM and his army are pure Reaper tech. And should we bring up the Omega/adjutant situation?
-Dragon's teeth. Also the very Reaperish- looking altar things on Feros. But more importantly the heretics fundamentally differ from the true geth based on this philosophy. They're just waiting for Reaper tech. Besides, the virus in Legion's LM and the explanation for the different beliefs (the "math error') do make you wonder just why the heretics started coming to different conclusions.

And yes, complacency/stagnation is not a Reaper-specific effect. Another non-Reaper example of the follies of unearned tech is the krogan uplifting, as explained by Mordin. Though the effects are very different from complacency and the focus is on the giving as opposed to the receiving.

The books and the game clealry show Cereberus researching Reaper tech, and not simply accepting a gift or finding something and just using it. Omega, again Cereberus obviously researching the technology to use it on their own terms. The lesson there isn't the Reaper tech is bad, it is that Cerberus is ruthless.

The dragon's teeth aren't devices to further the Heretics as much as they are simply Sovereign telling the Heretics to use some stuff to further Sovereign's goal and the Geth complying. 

If you're trying to make an arguement the you just can't use advanced tech that you don't understand, well, that doesn't seem logical. Do you fully understand the technology or medicine you use right now?

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 janvier 2014 - 08:26 .