50 réponses à ce sujet

[Grani]

At anything but starting levels, Dirty Fighting is arguably the most useless feat in the game.
What's worse is that it's hardcoded.

That said, is there anything that could be done to make it actually an option to consider? Even if not by modifying the feat itself, maybe by adding some checks for it in some scripts? Any ideas?

[Shadooow]

Of course there is. |You can add a +2damage to every character that has this feat, or haste, or perhaps massive criticals on wielded weapon, whatever you think of.

I suggest to delete this feat and forget on such changes though. Better to make a new feat from the actually existing DnD references such as Reckless Offense: http://www.dandwiki....eckless_Offense

[Grani]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Of course there is. |You can add a +2damage to every character that has this feat, or haste, or perhaps massive criticals on wielded weapon, whatever you think of.

I know, but how can this be done technically?

[henesua]

Another idea is to create some new combat feats whihc have dirty fighting as a prerequisite.

[Shadooow]

one script file or function that you will fire from all these events:
OnEnter, OnLevelUp, OnLevelDown (if you have it - needs to hook all SetXP calls - I can provide the code if you want), OnRespawn, OnResurrect (aka from those two spells that resurrects), OnRest (for safety). This is in case of an effect, if you wanted to boost weapon item then you would want the OnEquip/OnUnequip and not need the respawn/ress events.

And in the script:
1) remove all effects with a creator with tag "EC_SOMETHING"
2) (re)calculate the bonuses based on player feats/skills and whatever
3) assigncommand to the EC_SOMETHING (i think it mustnt be static but it can be placeable) a function that will apply these effects on a PC
4) maybe print some feedback

thats it, I can upload one script of mine but it will be a mess for you with lot of code so Im not sure it would help you, but if you ask I provide

[Pstemarie]

I agree with Henesua. Unfortunately, you need some low level feats to make the game balanced and offer choices at low levels. This feat isn't the only useless one at high levels.

[Squatting Monk]

IIRC, Dirty Fighting is a combat mode, so you can detect it from the OnPhysicalAttacked event (dunno if it works from OnDamaged; the Lexicon suggests not) using GetLastAttackMode(). Script your awesomeness there.

There's an easier and more global way if you're using NWNX. The nwnx_events plugin can capture mode toggles, allowing you to apply persistent effects when the PC activates Dirty Fighting and remove them when he deactivates it.

For the ultimate in flexibility, though, look into nwnx_solstice and nwnx_combat (Linux only), which allow you to rewrite combat from scratch. (Warning: some lots of programming required for this option.)

[Grani]

SM, one problem I see with using the OnPhysicalAttacked event is that it wouldn't work on PCs.
If there was a way to bypass that problem, that solution would certainly do.

Shadooow, I think I got your point, I might use it if this turns out to be the most optimal way.

Pstemarie, out of curiosity - which feats do you see as most useless at higher levels?

[MagicalMaster]

Combat Casting (unless you use it for Improved Combat Casting), Cleave/Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Circle Kick (broken as hell in general), Extra Music, and Lingering Song (due to Lasting Inspiration which isn't a requirement anyway).

In terms of pre-epic feats that can be good early on but are terrible later.

[WhiZard]

Although dirty fighting does have a hard-coded plus. When it is used in conjunction with whirlwind attack, no attacks are lost, and the 1d4 bonus applies to all attacks.

[MagicalMaster]

Interesting, but that's a relatively rare feat and even rarer to even be worth using. Which I'm sure YOU know, just throwing that out there for everyone.

[Grani]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Combat Casting (unless you use it for Improved Combat Casting), Cleave/Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Circle Kick (broken as hell in general), Extra Music, and Lingering Song (due to Lasting Inspiration which isn't a requirement anyway).

In terms of pre-epic feats that can be good early on but are terrible later.

Cleave - what'wrong with a free attack at higher levels? I always found it just as useful. I agree that Great Cleave isnot that good, but if someone likes parrying then it still is useful for killing off all these badly injured enemies.

Circle Kick - annoying, that's for sure

Extra music - I see how it might be seen as useless, but it might actually help in modules with restricted rest, like mine (food needed to rest plus you can't rest at all in some terrains like desert or frozen wastelands)

Lingering song - it stacks with lasting inspiration, though

[Squatting Monk]

Grani wrote...

Lingering song - it stacks with lasting inspiration, though

Yes, but the extra five rounds are tacked on after the multiplier from Lasting Inspiration. Increasing a Bard Song from 10 rounds to 15 is great. Increasing it from 100 to 105... not so great. I mean, sure, it's an increase of 5 rounds either way, but it's a 50% increase versus a 5% increase.

That can be easily fixed, of course, as Bard Song is a scripted ability.

[MagicalMaster]

At higher levels you're getting 4-5 attacks per round anyway (more in some cases). If you're facing weak mobs then you have enough attacks that one more attack every time you kill an enemy doesn't mean much. If you're facing strong mobs then you won't even trigger the Cleave very often at all. So it basically only helps against mobs that you're basically cleaving through anyway without even having Cleave.

Extra music gives 4 extra uses which means a lot less when you have 25+ uses of a 10 minute song, that's over 4 hours. Even if you rested every hour, that means you'd need 6 standard songs and would still have 19+ Curse Songs.

Lingering Song only makes Lasting Inspiration 5% longer. It adds 30 seconds onto 10 minutes which is pretty irrelevant. If it stacked properly and added 5 minutes onto 10 minutes it would be better (would literally give 10 times the benefit).

[Grani]

When you put it this way... True, they seem to be pretty useless, too.

[Pstemarie]

They touched on all the ones I was going to point out...

[Grani]

But anyway, even if the feat itself is of little use, as long as it's a prerequisite to something useful, it's not pointless and might be worth investing in it.

Devastating critical, for example, requires Great Cleave, even if GC itself is of little value at epic levels, as MagicalMaster pointed out. This automatically makes both Cleave and Great Cleave feats options to consider when you're planning a build for epic levels.

Dirty Fighting, on the other hand, is utterly pointless in this sense.

Modifié par Grani, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:33 .

[Shadooow]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Combat Casting (unless you use it for Improved Combat Casting), Cleave/Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Circle Kick (broken as hell in general), Extra Music, and Lingering Song (due to Lasting Inspiration which isn't a requirement anyway).

In terms of pre-epic feats that can be good early on but are terrible later.

This is weird. Like a half of your list is at least mid usefull, either for specific builds or for half the character life.

I wont argue about that its your opinion and my differ but being a DM/WB on a high magic epic loot action server I can tell you guys that Circle Kick is my favorite feat for monsters. It completely breaks the usual tactics of tanking a monster with stupid PM/rogue character. Fights are much more interesting. For players this is quite weird feat even when it wouldnt be broken. I made in past a modification that allows to turn it off and on when player wants but since monsters arent downgrade with their health and the fact that twenties are bit..hes this is hardly useable anywhere.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 31 janvier 2014 - 01:46 .

[Grani]

I don't see Circle Kick as useless, but annoying - the fact that you can't turn it off does get on my nerves.

[Shadooow]

then check this http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=5780

[Grani]

Thanks, I'll give it a try.
By the way, does your 1.70 patch fix anything with the Circle Kick?

[Shadooow]

Grani wrote...

Thanks, I'll give it a try.
By the way, does your 1.70 patch fix anything with the Circle Kick?

no but now when you brought it I think I could do something about it via nwnx, got finally whole weekend for nwn so maybe I will be able to do something about it.

[MagicalMaster]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

This is weird. Like a half of your list is at least mid usefull, either for specific builds or for half the character life.

Some of the feats certainly ARE useful earlier on -- but the question was what feats wound up being useless at high level (presumably 30+ or something).

ShaDoOoW wrote...

It completely breaks the usual tactics of tanking a monster with stupid PM/rogue character. Fights are much more interesting. For players this is quite weird feat even when it wouldnt be broken.

On the flip side, it means a melee rogue or 2H barbarian/weapon master/paladin/fighter/etc can get switched to and attacked -- the problem is the stupid PM/rogue character which has ungodly defense.

[henesua]

MagicalMaster wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

This is weird. Like a half of your list is at least mid usefull, either for specific builds or for half the character life.

Some of the feats certainly ARE useful earlier on -- but the question was what feats wound up being useless at high level (presumably 30+ or something).

MM, this sounds like you misunderstand the question in the first post, unless I missed something. The OP stated that Dirty Fighting is useless except at starting levels, not that it was useless in epic levels.

"Starting Levels" is a fuzzy category, but equating all levels up to 29 as starting levels is an unusually wide range for this. Often, levels 1-5 are called starting levels.

[Grani]

henesua wrote...

MagicalMaster wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

This is weird. Like a half of your list is at least mid usefull, either for specific builds or for half the character life.

Some of the feats certainly ARE useful earlier on -- but the question was what feats wound up being useless at high level (presumably 30+ or something).

MM, this sounds like you misunderstand the question in the first post, unless I missed something. The OP stated that Dirty Fighting is useless except at starting levels, not that it was useless in epic levels.

"Starting Levels" is a fuzzy category, but equating all levels up to 29 as starting levels is an unusually wide range for this. Often, levels 1-5 are called starting levels.

Actually, I just wanted to emphasize that this feat is useless not only on very high levels, but also on mid levels. That's why I used the phrase "starting levels".
But what I'd love best would be a scenario in which every feat is an option to consider when planning to develop a character all the way up to level 40.

Modifié par Grani, 01 février 2014 - 01:12 .