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[Grieving Natashina]

Br3ad wrote...

Oh BSN, can't we go five minutes without declaring crusades on each other. I mean what happened to using magic to light torches?

Or to have a frosty cold drink on a hot day?  

Modifié par Starsyn, 31 janvier 2014 - 10:57 .

[Br3admax]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

[MisterJB]

Starsyn wrote...
Edit: Reworded my question.

What insta-death moves are there in gameplay?  I'm not trying to debate, I'm just curious.

Only Shatter, really. Which won't work of Warriors because it must pass a physical resistance check; which relies on Constitution plus Strength which are both something Warriors are required to have in abundance; and it also requires critical hits to which Warriors can be made immune to.

Realmzmaster wrote...
The anti-magic ward can be cast on the caster (look in the Notes section), but it still only lasts 10 seconds.

You are right on both accounts. On the other hand, SotC lasts for 30 seconds which means trying to use one to tank the other is folly.
On the other hand Carapace plus BotA lasts for 40 seconds.

[Grieving Natashina]

MisterJB wrote...

Starsyn wrote...
Edit: Reworded my question.

What insta-death moves are there in gameplay?  I'm not trying to debate, I'm just curious.

Only Shatter, really. Which won't work of Warriors because it must pass a physical resistance check; which relies on Constitution plus Strength which are both something Warriors are required to have in abundance; and it also requires critical hits to which Warriors can be made immune to.

Ah, thanks.  I wasn't trying to seriously imply that I would be able "insta-kill" anyone as a rogue.  

Edit: Sometimes, when I read about all the mages vs Templars debates, it seems like there is a few that feel like this:

Modifié par Starsyn, 31 janvier 2014 - 11:05 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...


Good luck mining lyrium without our fabled resistance, dealing with surface problems AND darkspawn raiding parties harrassing you from underneath as you try to mine the dangerous mineral. 

Maintaing the supply lines while constantly under attack from darkspawn will be quite difficult when taking into account all the other problems going on on the surface. 

Trade with the surface is the lifeline of Orzammar. Without it, the city literally dies. The dwarves won't ****** off every single human kingdom for the sake of apostates.

Plus, if there was a war, they would break long before the humans did. Their numbers just can't take it and loss for the humans means a setback and thousands of deaths. Loss for the dwarves means extinction.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 janvier 2014 - 11:12 .

[Grieving Natashina]

^ Yep.

[Thibax]

I will call all powerful spells. Let's see if your boring characters will survive. hahaha chaotic laughs

Inferno! Earthquake! Blizzard! Tempest! Death Cloud! Elemental Chaos! Nature's Vengeance! Storm of the Century!

[Grieving Natashina]

Thibax wrote...

I will call all powerful spells. Let's see if your boring characters will survive. hahaha chaotic laughs

Inferno! Earthquake! Blizzard! Tempest! Death Cloud! Elemental Chaos! Nature's Vengeance! Storm of the Century!

That's been covered already.  It's not that easy.

MisterJB wrote...

Oh please, is that supposed to be impressive?
Cleanse Area removes both the hex and the storm.
Or I can just tank it with Bulwark of the Ages.
Or if I can't use either at the moment, I'll just use my super speed gained from Blood Thirst and Blessing of the Fade to move out of the affected area. And neither of them have a time limit and thus, they'll outlive your storm.
Or I can just use the 25% Spell Resistance from Blessing of the Fade plus the natural Constitution from being a Shield Warrior to just tank the storm as I use my super speed to reach you and use heavy hitter attacks such as Peon's Plight.
Plus, Storm of the Century takes a ton of time to cast.

Modifié par Starsyn, 31 janvier 2014 - 11:32 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

From the Codex: Armed with the ability to dispel and resist magic in addition to their formidable combat talents, the templars are uniquely qualified to act as both a foil for apostates - mages who refuse to submit to the authority of the Circle - and a first line of defense against the dark powers of blood mages and abominations.

So answer is yes, the average Templar can beat the average mage 1 on 1.

That codex entry does not fully support your conclusion.

The templars may be uniquely qualified, but unless they're also fully capable, their unique qualifications may not be enough.

[Grieving Natashina]

We should be leery of using Codex to back up our stance on debates. It's been said by the writers repeatedly that those aren't written from an omnipresent view.

[dragonflight288]

I was going to say that Dragon is just begging for an Exalted March.

If I made the offer BEFORE Asunder, I would be. The thought of an Exalted March now that the Chantry has completely lost control of its templars and the mages make the very idea of an Exalted March completely ridiculous and laughable now.

Mister JB wrote....


Trade with the surface is the lifeline of Orzammar. Without it, the city literally dies. The dwarves won't ****** off every single human kingdom for the sake of apostates.

Plus, if there was a war, they would break long before the humans did. Their numbers just can't take it and loss for the humans means a setback and thousands of deaths. Loss for the dwarves means extinction.

I'm not denying it, but if the surface called an Exalted March, that would effectively eliminate trade with Orzammar, and if the dwarves are wiped out, there won't be any lyrium left for the surface.

The dwarves may end up fighting a two-front war and that would almost certainly doom them, but the surface would soon be facing a never-ending blight. Not to mention that they aren't resistant to lyrium or all the logistics involved with supplying templars and any mages they may or may not have, and I think the surface, should they go along with this 'hypothetical' exalted march, while the Chantry has absolutely no martial power at present I might add, they would ultimately end up regretting it.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

You don't need to be immune to magic, you just have to take magic away from the other guys, which is what templar abilities do. They cancel out magic abilities, their entire power is negatiing the power of mages from being used. Essentially they are walking anti-magic-bursts.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...


Good luck mining lyrium without our fabled resistance, dealing with surface problems AND darkspawn raiding parties harrassing you from underneath as you try to mine the dangerous mineral. 

Maintaing the supply lines while constantly under attack from darkspawn will be quite difficult when taking into account all the other problems going on on the surface. 

Trade with the surface is the lifeline of Orzammar. Without it, the city literally dies. The dwarves won't ****** off every single human kingdom for the sake of apostates.

Plus, if there was a war, they would break long before the humans did. Their numbers just can't take it and loss for the humans means a setback and thousands of deaths. Loss for the dwarves means extinction.

That a point ageinst the templars being that the chantry has all the money. The chantry just have to buy out all the lyrium dealers and smugglers and the templars well have no foundation to stand on.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

You don't need to be immune to magic, you just have to take magic away from the other guys, which is what templar abilities do. They cancel out magic abilities, their entire power is negatiing the power of mages from being used. Essentially they are walking anti-magic-bursts.

...Which they have to be close to do......Which they are face enemies that fight at a distance....

[Mirrman70]

can I just say that mages are just as vulnerable to surprise attacks as anyone else. Arrow from the bushes, surprise shanking, poison, mines, surprise fist in the face, kick in the nads (if male). I mean correct if I am wrong but there aren't a lot of credible future seers in Thedas.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

You don't need to be immune to magic, you just have to take magic away from the other guys, which is what templar abilities do. They cancel out magic abilities, their entire power is negatiing the power of mages from being used. Essentially they are walking anti-magic-bursts.

...Which they have to be close to do......Which they are face enemies that fight at a distance....

Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

[Grieving Natashina]

Thinking about this whole mage versus Templar thing...if lyrium was taken out of the equation entirely, both groups would be in deep trouble. Mages would have trouble replenishing their spells without sleep, and there would be strung out Templars in a haze everywhere.

I can't tell if that's hilarious to me, or just plain sad.

I'm not saying that would happen, as both groups would most likely find ways to get their lyrium.  Still, I have that mental picture in my head.

Modifié par Starsyn, 01 février 2014 - 01:34 .

[Anvos]

Starsyn wrote...

Thinking about this whole mage versus Templar thing...if lyrium was taken out of the equation entirely, both groups would be in deep trouble. Mages would have trouble replenishing their spells without sleep, and there would be strung out Templars in a haze everywhere.

I can't tell if that's hilarious to me, or just plain sad.

I'm not saying that would happen, as both groups would most likely find ways to get their lyrium.  Still, I have that mental picture in my head.

Actually ends in favor of mages as they can turn to blood magic as an alternate full source, Templars don't really have any alternative to cure the backlash of lyrium withdraw other then training a whole new class of Templars that isn't addicted.

[Br3admax]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

You don't need to be immune to magic, you just have to take magic away from the other guys, which is what templar abilities do. They cancel out magic abilities, their entire power is negatiing the power of mages from being used. Essentially they are walking anti-magic-bursts.

...Which they have to be close to do......Which they are face enemies that fight at a distance....

Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

You could just crush the Templar with the eath from force magic, second, rogues don't make any sense, let's not pretend that they do. Magic teleporting and invisibility were shaky lorewise at best. Finally, fire will burn eventually. They would need to be immune to magic to out last them in any battles that way. The range battle will be a loss for the Templars, plan and simple. To win, they would have to get up close and personal. A lot of them. Otherwise, mages would be allowed to roam free. 

[Grieving Natashina]

@Anovs When it comes to lyrium, I'm skeptical as to whether or not it is the source of Templar powers. However, you think the Chantry would let go of their Templars that didn't rebel? Not all of the Templars rebelled and some are certainly still with the Chantry. It's been stated a few times that the lyrium is the leash that is used to keep the Templars in order.

I believe Samson in DA2 says that "They are the only ones that got the dust."

And blood magic isn't exactly a winning situation either. Occasionally you have blood mages like Merrill, that are cautious and pretty careful with their blood magic. However, most of them end up possessed.

Addiction or possession? Neither seem healthy for the long term.

Edit: I'm very curious. Why does a Templar rogue make no sense?  There isn't enough gold in Thedas for any PC I play to consider it, but I'd like to see your viewpoint.

Modifié par Starsyn, 01 février 2014 - 02:04 .

[General TSAR]

Starsyn wrote...

@Anovs When it comes to lyrium, I'm skeptical as to whether or not it is the source of Templar powers. However, you think the Chantry would let go of their Templars that didn't rebel? Not all of the Templars rebelled and some are certainly still with the Chantry. It's been stated a few times that the lyrium is the leash that is used to keep the Templars in order.

Retconned. To gain Templar abilities, you must ingest Lyrium.

[Fast Jimmy]

General TSAR wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

@Anovs When it comes to lyrium, I'm skeptical as to whether or not it is the source of Templar powers. However, you think the Chantry would let go of their Templars that didn't rebel? Not all of the Templars rebelled and some are certainly still with the Chantry. It's been stated a few times that the lyrium is the leash that is used to keep the Templars in order.

Retconned. To gain Templar abilities, you must ingest Lyrium.

I've only seen Allistair talk about not really needing the lyrium, has this been clarified elsewhere?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You know, if I were a super powered person with the ability of fire, and could summon massive waves of flames and create huge fire creatures like balrogs or stuff, and have all aspects of fire under my command, I would still not be able to beat a person whose entire power was simply extinguishing fire and carrying a sword

It wouldn't even be a fair fight. I'd be like "Get ready to burn" and then he'd just snap his fingers and all my powers would go poof. Then I'd just be standing there like a jackass in my orange and red colored outfit, because fire theme, and he'd be there with his sword, and I would be ****ing screwed.

That's kinda what it's like for mages and templars. Mages have all these fantastical powers and the templars have the power to magic-off-switches. If you want further examples, you should look up chi blockers from avatar and how easy they can stop the almighty benders from manipulating the elements of the world.

Not quite. Templars don't beat mages because they are completely immune to magic. It has more to deal with Templars using numbers to corner the one mage that tries to be stupid and run away. Every templar isn't as skilled as the higher ups, otherwise, Broken Circle, wouldn't have happened. 

You don't need to be immune to magic, you just have to take magic away from the other guys, which is what templar abilities do. They cancel out magic abilities, their entire power is negatiing the power of mages from being used. Essentially they are walking anti-magic-bursts.

...Which they have to be close to do......Which they are face enemies that fight at a distance....

Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

You could just crush the Templar with the eath from force magic, second, rogues don't make any sense, let's not pretend that they do. Magic teleporting and invisibility were shaky lorewise at best. Finally, fire will burn eventually. They would need to be immune to magic to out last them in any battles that way. The range battle will be a loss for the Templars, plan and simple. To win, they would have to get up close and personal. A lot of them. Otherwise, mages would be allowed to roam free. 

Magic is real but rogues make no sense? lolwut? Invisible rogues are just as valid as gravity controlling robed weirdos.

[Grieving Natashina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

@Anovs When it comes to lyrium, I'm skeptical as to whether or not it is the source of Templar powers. However, you think the Chantry would let go of their Templars that didn't rebel? Not all of the Templars rebelled and some are certainly still with the Chantry. It's been stated a few times that the lyrium is the leash that is used to keep the Templars in order.

Retconned. To gain Templar abilities, you must ingest Lyrium.

I've only seen Allistair talk about not really needing the lyrium, has this been clarified elsewhere?

Apparently lyrium does help some with the Templars' powers:

It is confirmed that lyrium does have effective benefits for templars, as it builds a resistance to magic in them over time, as well as increasing the effectiveness of their magic abilities, such as being able to shut off a mage's abilities entirely. Some people think that templars are conditioned to be dependent on this mineral for its attributes and that the Chantry knows of its addictiveness. BothAlistair and Evangeline claim that "the Chantry controls the supply of lyrium, and thus they control the templars.

I'm still skeptical as to how much the Templars really need the stuff to keep up their abilities, and how much of it is the Chantry keeping them all hooked.

Modifié par Starsyn, 01 février 2014 - 02:11 .