420 réponses à ce sujet

[Anvos]

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

If you can use your magical focus to boost your strength to wear armor and wield weapons, why wouldn't there also be a method to boost your dexterity and perceptiveness.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

....Cole...

OBJECTION! Cole was not a mage. He was a spirit with blood magic capabilities.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

1. Mages also can use  hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat....With magic.
2.Mage Rogues ans mages have counter to rogues.

If you going on range combat, mages win out no matter what.

1. Mages get no military training, at least the circle mages, who make up the majority of mages in thedas. So really, no they wouldn't be good archers, balista manners, or able to use other sources of ranged combat outside of spells. Not unless we're dealing with an all arcane warrior army, in which case I would call shinnanigans on.

2. What are these counter measures to rogues that mages can apparently always have active to prevent being backstabbed?

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 05:14 .

[Anvos]

leaguer of one wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Silfren wrote...

No, it's been pretty well confirmed that Alistair's scene where he says lyrium isn't necessary was not meant to be lieft in the game, and that lyrium IS required. 

Besides, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Where would templar abilities come from, elsewise?  The story makes actual sense for templar abilties to be conferred with lyrium, and just works better. 

The answer would be that through their training and focus regimens a Templars learns to with concentration force open the switch which determines if you have a normal or mage level connection to the fade, unable to safely and consistently control these energies though a Templar is limited to effects caused by the surge of raw spirit energy into them.

This still however leaves open the possibility that it does help but isn't needed.

Dude, they need Lyrium and that is that. The books and world of thedas state so as well.

Books maybe (thought without the specific context and lines its hard to tell if it falls into the same category of its merely what they've been indoctrinated to believe since it has positive but not actually causative effects) , as for the world we have already pointed out 3-5(if you include Sten and Oghren can also spec in it) possible examples that come first refuting those claims.

Modifié par Anvos, 01 février 2014 - 05:21 .

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

....Cole...

OBJECTION! Cole was not a mage. He was a spirit with blood magic capabilities.

That is still magic. And Mages can learn blood magic from spirits. Heck, the characters in DA:A can learn Justice's abilities.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 février 2014 - 05:21 .

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

1. Mages also can use  hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat....With magic.
2.Mage Rogues ans mages have counter to rogues.

If you going on range combat, mages win out no matter what.

1. Mages get no military training, at least the circle mages, who make up the majority of mages in thedas. So really, no they wouldn't be good archers, balista manners, or able to use other sources of ranged combat outside of spells. Not unless we're dealing with an all arcane warrior army, in which case I would call shinnanigans on.

2. What are these counter measures to rogues that mages can apparently always have active to prevent being backstabbed?

1. They can learn...with magic.

2.The entire force magic tree for one.

[leaguer of one]

Anvos wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Anvos wrote...

Silfren wrote...

No, it's been pretty well confirmed that Alistair's scene where he says lyrium isn't necessary was not meant to be lieft in the game, and that lyrium IS required. 

Besides, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Where would templar abilities come from, elsewise?  The story makes actual sense for templar abilties to be conferred with lyrium, and just works better. 

The answer would be that through their training and focus regimens a Templars learns to with concentration force open the switch which determines if you have a normal or mage level connection to the fade, unable to safely and consistently control these energies though a Templar is limited to effects caused by the surge of raw spirit energy into them.

This still however leaves open the possibility that it does help but isn't needed.

Dude, they need Lyrium and that is that. The books and world of thedas state so as well.

Books maybe (thought without the specific context and lines its hard to tell if it falls into the same category of its merely what they've been indoctrinated to believe since it has positive but not actually causative effects) , as for the world we have already pointed out 3 possible examples that come first refuting those claims.

It's only one and that was retconed.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

....Cole...

OBJECTION! Cole was not a mage. He was a spirit with blood magic capabilities.

That is still magic. And Mages can learn blood magic from spirits. Heck, the characters in DA:A can learn Justice abilities.

That doesn't change the fact that cole is not a mage, or that cole was the only person in the entirety of dragon age lore to use blood magic in the way he did, which may be tied entirely to the fact that he is a spirit and doesn't need to worry about being possessed from too much blood magic use, as is what happens according to lore.

And justice was a spirit warrior, not the same thing as a mage. Calling him a mage is like calling a templar a mage, entirely redundant and incorrect in classification. In fact, your argument that it is still magic could apply to everything. It's a fallacy.

>All mages can use magic
>[blank] can use magic
>Therefore [blank] is a mage

On it's own this seems like a logical assumption, but by simply applying some exsisting examples of the lore, we see this logical assumption falls apart.

>All mages can use magic
>Demons can use magic
>Therefore, All demons are mages

This is not true in any extent, as we all know. Demons are not mages and do not only target mages for possession. They are their own entities, and just because they use magic, doesn't make them mages.

>All mages can use magic
>Templars can use magic
>Therefore, all templars are mages

We see here the logical assumption completely falls apart, as the antithesis of mages is able to be mages in this logical framework. But what about items that are enchanted?

>All mages can use magic
>Enchanted items can use magic
>Therefore, all enchanted items are mages

Now we see it taken to it's logical extreme, and here it completely falls into nothing but the ramblings of a fool.

So what can we conclude by all this? Simply put, Using magic =/= Being a mage.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

1. Mages also can use  hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat....With magic.
2.Mage Rogues ans mages have counter to rogues.

If you going on range combat, mages win out no matter what.

1. Mages get no military training, at least the circle mages, who make up the majority of mages in thedas. So really, no they wouldn't be good archers, balista manners, or able to use other sources of ranged combat outside of spells. Not unless we're dealing with an all arcane warrior army, in which case I would call shinnanigans on.

2. What are these counter measures to rogues that mages can apparently always have active to prevent being backstabbed?

1. They can learn...with magic.

2.The entire force magic tree for one.

1. You can't be serious. Explain that now.

2. You didn't explain how at all, you just stated a blurb of information without any effort. Rogues can counter force magic. How? Well assassins mark their targets.

See how uninformative that is? Well that's what you did up there. So do better.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

....Cole...

OBJECTION! Cole was not a mage. He was a spirit with blood magic capabilities.

That is still magic. And Mages can learn blood magic from spirits. Heck, the characters in DA:A can learn Justice abilities.

That doesn't change the fact that cole is not a mage, or that cole was the only person in the entirety of dragon age lore to use blood magic in the way he did, which may be tied entirely to the fact that he is a spirit and doesn't need to worry about being possessed from too much blood magic use, as is what happens according to lore.

And justice was a spirit warrior, not the same thing as a mage. Calling him a mage is like calling a templar a mage, entirely redundant and incorrect in classification. In fact, your argument that it is still magic could apply to everything. It's a fallacy.

>All mages can use magic
>[blank] can use magic
>Therefore [blank] is a mage

On it's own this seems like a logical assumption, but by simply applying some exsisting examples of the lore, we see this logical assumption falls apart.

>All mages can use magic
>Demons can use magic
>Therefore, All demons are mages

This is not true in any extent, as we all know. Demons are not mages and do not only target mages for possession. They are their own entities, and just because they use magic, doesn't make them mages.

>All mages can use magic
>Templars can use magic
>Therefore, all templars are mages

We see here the logical assumption completely falls apart, as the antithesis of mages is able to be mages in this logical framework. But what about items that are enchanted?

>All mages can use magic
>Enchanted items can use magic
>Therefore, all enchanted items are mages

Now we see it taken to it's logical extreme, and here it completely falls into nothing but the ramblings of a fool.

So what can we conclude by all this? Simply put, Using magic =/= Being a mage.

1. Blood magic does not get mages possesed...Demons do.
2. It matter not that Cole is not a mage. What matters is the mages can learn his abilities.
3.Justice is an examle that people of this plan can learn abilities from Spirirts, Why can mages who are natually attuned to the fade?

I never said demons are mages just that mages can learn magic from demons and in story and lore show it happen.

Now why can't mages learn coles abilities? It has nothing to do with him being a spirit.

[dragonflight288]

Now why can't mages learn coles abilities? It has nothing to do with him being a spirit.

It would help if Cole himself knew what he was and how he does what he does. But otherwise, if he could teach them, I don't see why they couldn't learn.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


1. You can't be serious. Explain that now.

2. You didn't explain how at all, you just stated a blurb of information without any effort. Rogues can counter force magic. How? Well assassins mark their targets.

See how uninformative that is? Well that's what you did up there. So do better.

1. Yes I am serious.

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 février 2014 - 05:39 .

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Now why can't mages learn coles abilities? It has nothing to do with him being a spirit.

It would help if Cole himself knew what he was and how he does what he does. But otherwise, if he could teach them, I don't see why they couldn't learn.

Thank you...That is my point.

[Anvos]

leaguer of one wrote...
It's only one and that was retconed.

Problem is even saying it was lyrium, lyrium can't be the only answer to a Templar's power since there is a whole slew of nasty side effects (including spontaneously bleeding out of your orifices) that happen to nonmagical people and even dwarves if they consume lyrium that are far worse than slowly going senile.

[Nuloen]

shodiswe wrote...

Mages tend to requier a lot of training and experience to be effective in a fight.

knights trained with theyre swords for lifetime
it wasnt like "hey mean do ya want to be knight?"
"sur bro" and after this dialogue he became most feared and experienced warrior in medieval europe

[SgtSteel91]

Mages can draw power from Spirits. They're called Spirit Healers and they use that power for healing purposes.

Anvos wrote...

Problem is even saying it was lyrium, lyrium can't be the only answer to a Templar's power since there is a whole slew of nasty side effects (including spontaneously bleeding out of your orifices) that happen to nonmagical people and even dwarves if they consume lyrium that are far worse than slowly going senile.

The Dragon Age 2 description says that the lyrium has to be specially prepared. And I guess training is required to learn how to use techniques like Smite and Dispell Magic.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 01 février 2014 - 05:40 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Anvos wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
It's only one and that was retconed.

Problem is even saying it was lyrium, lyrium can't be the only answer to a Templar's power since there is a whole slew of nasty side effects (including spontaneously bleeding out of your orifices) that happen to nonmagical people and even dwarves if they consume lyrium that are far worse than slowly going senile.

That's only if you handle the raw lyrium ore.  

source: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lyrium

In its processed form, lyrium may be handled by anyone, but long term exposure or a single mistake while working with it can lead to serious side effects such as emotional instability or complete psychosis.

[leaguer of one]

Anvos wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
It's only one and that was retconed.

Problem is even saying it was lyrium, lyrium can't be the only answer to a Templar's power since there is a whole slew of nasty side effects (including spontaneously bleeding out of your orifices) that happen to nonmagical people and even dwarves if they consume lyrium that are far worse than slowly going senile.

It's with Lyrium no matter what you say. The very lore states it and we don't have any one to use it with out lyrium or state how to do it with out lyrium. Sorry, but  ,like mages, their's a cost to the power.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 février 2014 - 05:44 .

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Gameplay and lore for 90% are two completely different and unrelated things. 

While I do believe that mages that actually bother to learn how to kill, can kill a lot better than mundanes, gameplay is not something you can use as evidence. 

[leaguer of one]

KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Gameplay and lore for 90% are two completely different and unrelated things. 

While I do believe that mages that actually bother to learn how to kill, can kill a lot better than mundanes, gameplay is not something you can use as evidence. 

I understand that but their is nothing in the lore that show s mages can't learn force magic or how to use trap gliphs. Even considering the lore these are still anti- rogue spells.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


1. You can't be serious. Explain that now.

2. You didn't explain how at all, you just stated a blurb of information without any effort. Rogues can counter force magic. How? Well assassins mark their targets.

See how uninformative that is? Well that's what you did up there. So do better.

1. Yes I am serious.

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Mage for games one and 2, specialized in force magic. It never stopped me from being backstabbed by rogues. From the non-explinations you posted on the second part, It can only be assumed that you are basing this entirely on mages having omnescent sight. Otherwise, they would not be able to see the rogues and cast the spells upon them. Assuming giant glowing glyphs are hard to see in dragon age.

As for the first point, you didn't explain anything. At all. You literally just say mages can learn things they aren't taught because magic. You have literally used "It's magic I don't need to explain ****" as the crux of your argument.

Apply yourself already.

[leaguer of one]

Qistina wrote...

As far as i remember, Templar cannot resist Force Magic

Or earth quakes or rocks in the face.

[Realmzmaster]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

1. Mages also can use  hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat....With magic.
2.Mage Rogues ans mages have counter to rogues.

If you going on range combat, mages win out no matter what.

1. Mages get no military training, at least the circle mages, who make up the majority of mages in thedas. So really, no they wouldn't be good archers, balista manners, or able to use other sources of ranged combat outside of spells. Not unless we're dealing with an all arcane warrior army, in which case I would call shinnanigans on.

2. What are these counter measures to rogues that mages can apparently always have active to prevent being backstabbed?

1. They can learn...with magic.

2.The entire force magic tree for one.

The force mage tree requires that the mage be able to see their enemies. A rogue using steaalth could be right behind the mage and would be unaffected by the AOE since the mage would not be casting it on himself/herself. All of the mage spells need to have the spell casted away from the mage to a center point.  No more than a mage would cast a fireball at his/her feet unless extremely desparate. So a rogue in stealth with Overkill (DA2) would send a mage to sleepyland.

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

As far as i remember, Templar cannot resist Force Magic

But they can cleanse the area of it.

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...

I understand that but their is nothing in the lore that show s mages can't learn force magic or how to use trap gliphs. Even considering the lore these are still anti- rogue spells.

There are no anti-rogue spells in the lore. There are no rogues in the lore, because there are no classes in the lore, just mages and mundanes. Rogue is no different from a warrior story-wise, just a guy/gal with a weapon. They don't vanish in broad sight, they don't teleport around, they don't do 50 feet long flips.