420 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


1. You can't be serious. Explain that now.

2. You didn't explain how at all, you just stated a blurb of information without any effort. Rogues can counter force magic. How? Well assassins mark their targets.

See how uninformative that is? Well that's what you did up there. So do better.

1. Yes I am serious.

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Mage for games one and 2, specialized in force magic. It never stopped me from being backstabbed by rogues. From the non-explinations you posted on the second part, It can only be assumed that you are basing this entirely on mages having omnescent sight. Otherwise, they would not be able to see the rogues and cast the spells upon them. Assuming giant glowing glyphs are hard to see in dragon age.

As for the first point, you didn't explain anything. At all. You literally just say mages can learn things they aren't taught because magic. You have literally used "It's magic I don't need to explain ****" as the crux of your argument.

Apply yourself already.

1. Point to one mages in DA or da2 that used gravity well.
2. More of my point is why would a mage not be able to learn how to use a bastila? Bows and arrows are on thing, that need skill. But catipulte and bastila's? Added, these mages have knowledge of the use of alchemy. On famous mages used that knowleges to blow up a chantry...

You know...What's his face..

For some reason mages would use that knowledge ageinst templars?

[leaguer of one]

KainD wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

I understand that but their is nothing in the lore that show s mages can't learn force magic or how to use trap gliphs. Even considering the lore these are still anti- rogue spells.

There are no anti-rogue spells in the lore. There are no rogues in the lore, because there are no classes in the lore, just mages and mundanes. Rogue is no different from a warrior story-wise, just a guy/gal with a weapon. They don't vanish in broad sight, they don't teleport around, they don't do 50 feet long flips. 

Then in lore mages are more efective then.

[KainD]

leaguer of one wrote...
Then in lore mages are more efective then.

And I agree, but gameplay doesn't help, that's my point. 

Modifié par KainD, 01 février 2014 - 06:01 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Mage rogues!? We can multiclass now!?

....Cole...

OBJECTION! Cole was not a mage. He was a spirit with blood magic capabilities.

That is still magic. And Mages can learn blood magic from spirits. Heck, the characters in DA:A can learn Justice abilities.

That doesn't change the fact that cole is not a mage, or that cole was the only person in the entirety of dragon age lore to use blood magic in the way he did, which may be tied entirely to the fact that he is a spirit and doesn't need to worry about being possessed from too much blood magic use, as is what happens according to lore.

And justice was a spirit warrior, not the same thing as a mage. Calling him a mage is like calling a templar a mage, entirely redundant and incorrect in classification. In fact, your argument that it is still magic could apply to everything. It's a fallacy.

>All mages can use magic
>[blank] can use magic
>Therefore [blank] is a mage

On it's own this seems like a logical assumption, but by simply applying some exsisting examples of the lore, we see this logical assumption falls apart.

>All mages can use magic
>Demons can use magic
>Therefore, All demons are mages

This is not true in any extent, as we all know. Demons are not mages and do not only target mages for possession. They are their own entities, and just because they use magic, doesn't make them mages.

>All mages can use magic
>Templars can use magic
>Therefore, all templars are mages

We see here the logical assumption completely falls apart, as the antithesis of mages is able to be mages in this logical framework. But what about items that are enchanted?

>All mages can use magic
>Enchanted items can use magic
>Therefore, all enchanted items are mages

Now we see it taken to it's logical extreme, and here it completely falls into nothing but the ramblings of a fool.

So what can we conclude by all this? Simply put, Using magic =/= Being a mage.

1. Blood magic does not get mages possesed...Demons do.
2. It matter not that Cole is not a mage. What matters is the mages can learn his abilities.
3.Justice is an examle that people of this plan can learn abilities from Spirirts, Why can mages who are natually attuned to the fade?

I never said demons are mages just that mages can learn magic from demons and in story and lore show it happen.

Now why can't mages learn coles abilities? It has nothing to do with him being a spirit.

You can't prove that cole's abilities can be learned by anyone though, and not just him because of the unique case he is. He is, as I stated before, the only person who has demonstrated this ability and extent with blood magic before. And there is no evidence that coles application of blood magic is not unique to him, or that any mage who was living could use it to that extent.

Justice had to occupy the persons body in order to teach them his secrets, in fact the spirit warrior branch specifically lists that you need to be partially possessed in order to use the abilities at all. It is, again, a special circumstance that doesn't hint at all to being able to use blood magic, since spirits don't use blood magic, demons do.

And then we come back to cole, whose case is unique and can't be taken as the norm, only the outlier case. The 1/100000000 who happened to have events turn out in such a way that he was created.

And you have no evidence that cole's abilities are not linked to him being a spirit. At all.

[leaguer of one]

Realmzmaster wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


Alright. So the templars use hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat. Or they'll have the rogues, and yes there are templar rogues, to sneak up to thr mages and then neutralize their magic. Either way, the whole range argument isnt very sound when you actually look at both sides fairly.

1. Mages also can use  hails of arrows, balistas, and all sorts of manner of range combat....With magic.
2.Mage Rogues ans mages have counter to rogues.

If you going on range combat, mages win out no matter what.

1. Mages get no military training, at least the circle mages, who make up the majority of mages in thedas. So really, no they wouldn't be good archers, balista manners, or able to use other sources of ranged combat outside of spells. Not unless we're dealing with an all arcane warrior army, in which case I would call shinnanigans on.

2. What are these counter measures to rogues that mages can apparently always have active to prevent being backstabbed?

1. They can learn...with magic.

2.The entire force magic tree for one.

The force mage tree requires that the mage be able to see their enemies. A rogue using steaalth could be right behind the mage and would be unaffected by the AOE since the mage would not be casting it on himself/herself. All of the mage spells need to have the spell casted away from the mage to a center point.  No more than a mage would cast a fireball at his/her feet unless extremely desparate. So a rogue in stealth with Overkill (DA2) would send a mage to sleepyland.

The tree is pure aoe attacks. You don't need to see them to us it on then. I took out many rogue that try to hind in invisiblity with that spell tree.
And then their the gliph traps.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 février 2014 - 06:09 .

[Grieving Natashina]

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

Modifié par Starsyn, 01 février 2014 - 06:03 .

[x-aizen-x]

*Comes back a few hour's later and sees people still trying to nerf mage's to the weakest lvl possible*

All i see u guys doing is nerfing mages and taking away abilities so you can give the templars a chance to win. I mean come on mages not being able to call on spirits... DA mages at that. People saying spirits wont have a big role in DAI despite the big ass tear in the veil. yall in denial.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...



You can't prove that cole's abilities can be learned by anyone though, and not just him because of the unique case he is. He is, as I stated before, the only person who has demonstrated this ability and extent with blood magic before. And there is no evidence that coles application of blood magic is not unique to him, or that any mage who was living could use it to that extent.

Justice had to occupy the persons body in order to teach them his secrets, in fact the spirit warrior branch specifically lists that you need to be partially possessed in order to use the abilities at all. It is, again, a special circumstance that doesn't hint at all to being able to use blood magic, since spirits don't use blood magic, demons do.

And then we come back to cole, whose case is unique and can't be taken as the norm, only the outlier case. The 1/100000000 who happened to have events turn out in such a way that he was created.

And you have no evidence that cole's abilities are not linked to him being a spirit. At all.

The lore state mages can learn magic form spirits.  And with that nothing is stopping a mages form learning his abilitys. And that's that. Unless something in the lore says otherwise, then mages can learn Coles abilities being that he is a spirit.
And No Justice did not have to be in a persons body for th person to learn it. My warden learned and clearly does not have a spirit inher body.

And Cole is a spirit. Nothing is stopping a mages from learning his ability. Him being a snow flake makes no difference.

[leaguer of one]

Starsyn wrote...

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

*Claps slowly*

So Mage rogues are here to stay.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


1. You can't be serious. Explain that now.

2. You didn't explain how at all, you just stated a blurb of information without any effort. Rogues can counter force magic. How? Well assassins mark their targets.

See how uninformative that is? Well that's what you did up there. So do better.

1. Yes I am serious.

2.You clearly have not played a mage then. A quick gravity well can stop  a rogue in their tracks . I do it all the time as well and the gliph trap spells, and mind blaste. I can list them all and how to use them if you like.

Mage for games one and 2, specialized in force magic. It never stopped me from being backstabbed by rogues. From the non-explinations you posted on the second part, It can only be assumed that you are basing this entirely on mages having omnescent sight. Otherwise, they would not be able to see the rogues and cast the spells upon them. Assuming giant glowing glyphs are hard to see in dragon age.

As for the first point, you didn't explain anything. At all. You literally just say mages can learn things they aren't taught because magic. You have literally used "It's magic I don't need to explain ****" as the crux of your argument.

Apply yourself already.

1. Point to one mages in DA or da2 that used gravity well.
2. More of my point is why would a mage not be able to learn how to use a bastila? Bows and arrows are on thing, that need skill. But catipulte and bastila's? Added, these mages have knowledge of the use of alchemy. On famous mages used that knowleges to blow up a chantry...

You know...What's his face..

For some reason mages would use that knowledge ageinst templars?

1. You defeated your own argument by saying mages don't use force magic all that often. So how are these mages all suddenly experts enough in force magic to use them against rogues who are sneaking up on them. In fact, how would they even defend themselves from a ranged assult from opponents who try to steathily fire upon them, such as the type of tactics rogues would probably employ. Moving the goalpost? Perhaps, but then a lot of that's been going on lately in this thread.

2. A balista is not some simply device that was easy to use. Being able to calculate the trajectory, reseting the damn things, cranking up the gears, all took a lot of time and a lot of training to be able to use well. Like using a musket, if you don't have training you'll never use it as effectively as a well trained musket rifleman would. And mages don't get that kind of training, not according to lore. And you stating that they have training in alchemy doesn't prove anything. How does it relate to them knowing things they weren't taught? They were taught alchemy, most likely I would imagine. But I don't see them being taught in the use of medievil weaponry, espeically siege weaponry. And templars are taught the art of weilding a sword, does this make them experts in finance? If not, then why would knowledge in alchemy teach mages how to use a balista?

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Qistina wrote...

As far as i remember, Templar cannot resist Force Magic

But they can cleanse the area of it.

What is the to clense when they cannot see what is to clense, Force Magic is unseen except few spells

Cleanse is an AOE spell. The templar does not have to see the spell to use cleanse, cleanse area or cleansing wave. The AOE for cleanse is a 6 meter circle. Cleansing wave is 12 meters and I almost forgot Lasting Cleanse which last for 10 seconds and has an AOE of 12 meters. Cleanse and its upgrades are centered on the templar.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 01 février 2014 - 06:10 .

[Grieving Natashina]

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...



You can't prove that cole's abilities can be learned by anyone though, and not just him because of the unique case he is. He is, as I stated before, the only person who has demonstrated this ability and extent with blood magic before. And there is no evidence that coles application of blood magic is not unique to him, or that any mage who was living could use it to that extent.

Justice had to occupy the persons body in order to teach them his secrets, in fact the spirit warrior branch specifically lists that you need to be partially possessed in order to use the abilities at all. It is, again, a special circumstance that doesn't hint at all to being able to use blood magic, since spirits don't use blood magic, demons do.

And then we come back to cole, whose case is unique and can't be taken as the norm, only the outlier case. The 1/100000000 who happened to have events turn out in such a way that he was created.

And you have no evidence that cole's abilities are not linked to him being a spirit. At all.

The lore state mages can learn magic form spirits.  And with that nothing is stopping a mages form learning his abilitys. And that's that. Unless something in the lore says otherwise, then mages can learn Coles abilities being that he is a spirit.
And No Justice did not have to be in a persons body for th person to learn it. My warden learned and clearly does not have a spirit inher body.

And Cole is a spirit. Nothing is stopping a mages from learning his ability. Him being a snow flake makes no difference.

Again with the fallacies. You could give david7024 a run for his money.

>Mages can learn magic abilities from spirits.
>Total sensory control is a ability cole knows.
>Therefore, all mages can learn total sensory control.

This is so flawed, I'm just going to show you how it is by bringing it to the real world.

>Gun owners can learn how to use guns from trainers
>The military knows how to use predator drones
>Therefore, all gun owners can learn how to use preadtor drones

Do you see how your logic doesn't make any sense? Not all magic is the same. Learning how to summon fire balls is not the same as learning how to turn someone into a bomb, which is not the same as learning how to leach life from dead bodies, which is not the same as learning how to channel your mana into your opponent and kill them with it.

Not all magic is the same, and treating all magic like it's the same disgraces all schools of magic and all spell tiers.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

*Claps slowly*

So Mage rogues are here to stay.

How the **** did you get magic rogues from what gaider posted?

[leaguer of one]

[quote]The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

[quote]leaguer of one wrote...


1. You defeated your own argument by saying mages don't use force magic all that often. So how are these mages all suddenly experts enough in force magic to use them against rogues who are sneaking up on them. In fact, how would they even defend themselves from a ranged assult from opponents who try to steathily fire upon them, such as the type of tactics rogues would probably employ. Moving the goalpost? Perhaps, but then a lot of that's been going on lately in this thread.

2. A balista is not some simply device that was easy to use. Being able to calculate the trajectory, reseting the damn things, cranking up the gears, all took a lot of time and a lot of training to be able to use well. Like using a musket, if you don't have training you'll never use it as effectively as a well trained musket rifleman would. And mages don't get that kind of training, not according to lore. And you stating that they have training in alchemy doesn't prove anything. How does it relate to them knowing things they weren't taught? They were taught alchemy, most likely I would imagine. But I don't see them being taught in the use of medievil weaponry, espeically siege weaponry. And templars are taught the art of weilding a sword, does this make them experts in finance? If not, then why would knowledge in alchemy teach mages how to use a balista?



[/quote]1. Being that their is a war going on and the mages are fighting for servival. It would be smart for the more experiance mages that know the force magic spells to teach it to the ones who don't.

2. Not true. What skill is there to load and fire a balista? The only thing that require skill is aiming it... which in an amry vs army war is just shot fish is a barrel. I only see them having issues with the bows and arrows... But then they still have magic aoe spells to cover what they lack.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Starsyn wrote...

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

[glitched content]

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 06:27 .

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

*Claps slowly*

So Mage rogues are here to stay.

How the **** did you get magic rogues from what gaider posted?

They turn invisible, hidden from sight and sneak away and some how it's not a stealth ability?

[KainD]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

Who says that they are. I'm just saying Templars don't really have that much of an advantage.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 février 2014 - 06:20 .

[Grieving Natashina]

leaguer of one wrote...


*Claps slowly*

So Mage rogues are here to stay.

What?  How did you get that from that post?

What the NPCs are doing is moving fast, using smoke bombs (rogues) or illusions (mage.)  They are not teleporting, as Gaider states. Therefore, there can be no Mage Rogues. Rogues move through the shadows swiftly and create smoke screens.  Mages produce illusions and move swiftly.  

They looked like they were teleporting, however that was not the intended goal of the game designers.  They were going to add an effect that was going to show the NPCs going from one spot to the place they would appear.  They couldn't make that into the game.  

Modifié par Starsyn, 01 février 2014 - 06:19 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

All things do. But people seem to want to throw possibilties for good classes out the window and just make the mages mary sues right off the bat.

And I don't get why.

[leaguer of one]

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

Oh god they have the potential.  Teventor battle mages just scream beast.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

How says that they are. I'm just say Templars don't really have that much of an advantage.

So the people who were trained to be the safeguards against mages, and have done so succeccsfully for hundreds of years, aren't actually abe to safeguard against mages, because you say so.

And you don't see a problem with this? Not at all?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

Oh god they have the potential.  Teventor battle mages just scream beast.

As do the templar juggernaut that misterJB brought up. Orlisean Templar Guardian.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 06:21 .