420 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Qistina: Remember that gameplay is not an accurate depiction of various characters and powers. For example, abominations are much harder to defeat in the lore compared to the ones we fight in gameplay.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

How says that they are. I'm just say Templars don't really have that much of an advantage.

So the people who were trained to be the safeguards against mages, and have done so succeccsfully for hundreds of years, aren't actually abe to safeguard against mages, because you say so.

And you don't see a problem with this? Not at all?

You realize this group they are safe guarding ageinst never fought back in union and full force untill know. It easy to say that they were susessful for years when the mages were never fighting back and trying to work with them.

Look how well it worked when the Templars tried to do the same to teventor.

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

Oh god they have the potential.  Teventor battle mages just scream beast.

As do the templar juggernaut that misterJB brought up. Orlisean Templar Guardian.

Sorry but Arcane worrior mage >>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else

[Realmzmaster]

Let take a look at some of the other weapons available to the qunari and dwarves. The Qunari have gaatlok which is akin to gunpowder. Gaatlok is used to power their cannons on their dreadnoughts making qunari a force to reckoned.

Saar-qamek is a poison that instills madness. What happens if a mage gets a dose of saar-gamek? Dwarves have explosives based on lyrium. Qunari and Dwarves are two most technologically advanced races.

Which says a great deal about why mages have not been able to take over. Dwarves and Qunari have developed technologies that rival magic and do not rely on physiology.

[Banxey]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

I don't think game mechanics are an actual indication of how these talents work. For example, a bunch of Templars fighting a Mage can't just spam Cleanse Area. When Evangeline fought the Mage who attacked Justinia, she had to take time to channel her powers.

Then what is? The comics, animated movie, and novels all portray these things differently.

Fair point. But I think that is more to do with requirements of the medium in question. In the game, you are able to drink health/lyrium potions like they're Gatorade. This creates a situation where where the PC is essentially unstoppable. If that situation was presented as "reality" (in the books), it would be fairly ridiculous. I think the intention of the book is to show that these talents aren't easy and that they require a cost or sacrifice. Those sorts of things don't translate well to games. If a Templar could take lyrium and then have an inexhaustable supply of power he/she can tap after a 10 second cooldown, it renders any Mage uprising pointless.

As far as the comics I'm not sure which specific talent you are talking about, it's been a while since I read them. I only remember Alistair resisiting some mind control attempt at some point. But comics tend to require an economy that is often left to artistic interpretation. So I think a lot of it comes down to a split between mediums, where the majority have to show what is going on in a short space of time, while a book has the ability to actually explain what is going on.. 

Or it just might be my preference. I don't like fantasy worlds with low/no-cost systems of magic.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Er..

The main part of the discussion seems to be mages why can't "just take over." There is obviously a lot of counter-measures magic, both based on Templar gifts as well as other more Badass Normal characters (i.e those without gifts at all.

It doesn't make mages any weaker, aizen. It just means that they aren't the god-like beings you want them to be. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

How says that they are. I'm just say Templars don't really have that much of an advantage.

So the people who were trained to be the safeguards against mages, and have done so succeccsfully for hundreds of years, aren't actually abe to safeguard against mages, because you say so.

And you don't see a problem with this? Not at all?

You realize this group they are safe guarding ageinst never fought back in union and full force untill know. It easy to say that they were susessful for years when the mages were never fighting back and trying to work with them.

Look how well it worked when the Templars tried to do the same to teventor.

You mean like how there are still templars, and that the magisters still need them to fight against users of forbidden magic? Or how tevinter for all it's mage supremacy never managed to expand from it's initial shrinking of territor,y and has only continued to lose territory, while fighting against the lowely rabble of non-magic users?

[leaguer of one]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let take a look at some of the other weapons available to the qunari and dwarves. The Qunari have gaatlok which is akin to gunpowder. Gaatlok is used to power their cannons on their dreadnoughts making qunari a force to reckoned.

Saar-qamek is a poison that instills madness. What happens if a mage gets a dose of saar-gamek? Dwarves have explosives based on lyrium. Qunari and Dwarves are two most technologically advanced races.

Which says a great deal about why mages have not been able to take over. Dwarves and Qunari have developed technologies that rival magic and do not rely on physiology.

And none of that is in the hands of the templars.
Then there's Mister Ander's with hos blowing up a chantry.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

Oh god they have the potential.  Teventor battle mages just scream beast.

As do the templar juggernaut that misterJB brought up. Orlisean Templar Guardian.

Sorry but Arcane worrior mage >>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else

I'll give you the worrior, it is quite a formidible class. But an Arcane Warrior <<<<<<<<<<<< Spirit Warrior.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 06:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

@Qistina: Remember that gameplay is not an accurate depiction of various characters and powers. For example, abominations are much harder to defeat in the lore compared to the ones we fight in gameplay.

My naked Warden can punch a dragon to death, are you telling me that isn't possible in the actual lore? Wow. I'm disgusted, I thought my Warden was the MMA champ of Thedas and now you're telling me he isn't?

[KainD]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

All things do. But people seem to want to throw possibilties for good classes out the window and just make the mages mary sues right off the bat.

And I don't get why.

See this is where the bullsh*t starts. If you really want to roleplay then when you pick a class you just have to accept that unless you pick a mage you are going to be plain weaker. But people don't like that, so there is balance in gameplay, but that balance goes against the lore, and to prevent that either player always has to be a mage OR not allowed to be one, but people don't want that too, so we have this huge gameplay lore segregation going on for ages in a lot of games. 

Take The old republic for example - they balanced jedi/sith vs troopers - plain bullsh*t. 
According to star wars lore force sensetive people not only posses force powers but also have unnatural reaction and perception. Which means that not only can a jedi/sith user crush a trooper with the force, but should they choose to pick up a blaster, they would shoot better and more accurate than the trooper. ( Which the game Jedi academy portrais properly btw ).

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

With Force Magic a Mage can blown out group of Templars into the air, grab a group of Templars and smash them to the ground, and also move them with unseen force here and there...no one can see where that coming....

Force Magic is one of powerful magic ever, a single Force Mage can wipe out an army of Templars

Proof...

This is not proof.  The only proof here is that the AI is stupid and did not use cleanse, cleansing wave or lasting cleanse depending on the level of the templars pictured.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

All things do. But people seem to want to throw possibilties for good classes out the window and just make the mages mary sues right off the bat.

And I don't get why.

See this is where the bullsh*t starts. If you really want to roleplay then when you pick a class you just have to accept that unless you pick a mage you are going to be plain weaker. But people don't like that, so there is balance in gameplay, but that balance goes against the lore, and to prevent that either player always has to be a mage OR not allowed to be one, but people don't want that too, so we have this huge gameplay lore segregation going on for ages in a lot of games. 

Take The old republic for example - they balanced jedi/sith vs troopers - plain bullsh*t. 
According to star wars lore force sensetive people not only posses force powers but also have unnatural reaction and perception. Which means that not only can a jedi/sith user crush a trooper with the force, but should they choose to pick up a blaster, they would shoot better and more accurate than the trooper. ( Which the game Jedi academy portrais properly btw ).

Sounds like you just want to be a mary sue to me. I would imagine the opposite. That if you play a mage, you'll have to accept that you aren't some walking god but just a very powerful person. One who can die from thigns just like everyone else and doesn't have a "I walk above the lower masses like I'm fabulous" card they can just pull out at any time.

And force users aren't immune to death by superior tactics, technology, or numbers. They may be powerful, but gods they are not. Not unless they go through some pretty extreme and hard to achieve steps.

[Wissenschaft]

Think of what happened to the Qunari invasion. What if the nations of Thedas united to wipe out all mages? The mages united might be able to do a lot of damage but in the end, I can't seem them surviing. But thats the thing, mages in Thedas are not united in anyway. The circles are all quite a distance from each other and they don't have many connections to the outside world. After all, most mages spend their whole lives inside a circle. What do they know about living in the outside world. Not everyone is like Wynne, lucky enough and skilled enough to have done more traveling them most circle mages can dream of.

[Grieving Natashina]

Qistina, you might want to take a look at this:

http://tvtropes.org/...torySegregation

[Nuloen]

Starsyn wrote...

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

well theroretically we can do something that looks like teleportation  but it needs POWER
break Veil, enter, close Veil, move while in Fade and then enter Thedas again somewhere else

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Exactly. I don't see why people can't just accept that mages aren't mary sues.

They have the potential.

Oh god they have the potential.  Teventor battle mages just scream beast.

As do the templar juggernaut that misterJB brought up. Orlisean Templar Guardian.

Sorry but Arcane worrior mage >>>>>>>>>>>>Everything else

I'll give you the worrior, it is quite a formidible class. But an Arcane Warrior <<<<<<<<<<<< Spirit Warrior.

Not with a stone fist to the face or force magic.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Think of what happened to the Qunari invasion. What if the nations of Thedas united to wipe out all mages? The mages united might be able to do a lot of damage but in the end, I can't seem them surviing. But thats the thing, mages in Thedas are not united in anyway. The circles are all quite a distance from each other and they don't have many connections to the outside world. After all, most mages spend their whole lives inside a circle. What do they know about living in the outside world. Not everyone is like Wynne, lucky enough and skilled enough to have done more traveling them most circle mages can dream of.

Mages don't spend their whole lives in the circle, as I have seen through dragon age origins. They seem to possess at least some right to leave the circle and pursue chantry supervised activities. It may sound bad, but it isn';t being locked away forever bad. Plus there are the circle meetings, political advising, even private mage service that can all allow them to leave. Some do, and so pay the price of being supervised abroad, others stay instead. And then there are the faternities, and the mages collective, both groups that cross geographical divides and allow from communication with the outside world and each other.

Of course the faternities are divided amongst what they want for the circles, and so even with all the connectivity they have, they are still divided.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Nuloen wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I think this applies to both rogues as well as mages:

http://social.biowar...index/7102545/5

David Gaider wrote...

The main purpose behind the ban on teleportation with regards to magic is actually to prevent two things: distance as being irrelevant and obstacles being easily surmountable. Gameplay often dictates that, in order to employ any kind of obstacle in a setting where teleportation exists, you need to create some kind of hand-wave in order to make it happen ("tachyon interference in the atmosphere has rendered the transporters inoperable!").

Technically speaking, what the mages in DA2 are doing breaks neither of these rules-- the mages are jumping between two spots but are neither traveling nor passing through obstacles. It's not supposed to be literal teleportation, either. The idea was to have a visual effect that travels between the spot where they disappear and the spot where they reappear... they're moving very quickly.

But that effect never got implemented, and thus the result really looks like literal teleportation. Which makes me unhappy. With any luck I'll have this fixed in the future as, no, mages are not actually breaking the cardinal rule.

well theroretically we can do something that looks like teleportation  but it needs POWER
break Veil, enter, close Veil, move while in Fade and then enter Thedas again somewhere else

Doesn't opening and closing tears in the veil take a lot of lyrium and work? And doesn't it also let demons and other unsavory things slip through in that time?

[KainD]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Sounds like you just want to be a mary sue to me. I would imagine the opposite. That if you play a mage, you'll have to accept that you aren't some walking god but just a very powerful person. One who can die from thigns just like everyone else and doesn't have a "I walk above the lower masses like I'm fabulous" card they can just pull out at any time.

And force users aren't immune to death by superior tactics, technology, or numbers. They may be powerful, but gods they are not. Not unless they go through some pretty extreme and hard to achieve steps.

Yes I want to be the best. But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a good challange. I'm not saying that all mages or force users are Gods and have no limits, I am just saying that they always have th upper hand, they are stronger than mundanes. That, and SOME mages and force users are unlike the mundanes ( in very rare cases ) the only ones that CAN be Gods, and can achieve out of the world power. 

[Realmzmaster]

Qistina wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let take a look at some of the other weapons available to the qunari and dwarves. The Qunari have gaatlok which is akin to gunpowder. Gaatlok is used to power their cannons on their dreadnoughts making qunari a force to reckoned.

Saar-qamek is a poison that instills madness. What happens if a mage gets a dose of saar-gamek? Dwarves have explosives based on lyrium. Qunari and Dwarves are two most technologically advanced races.

Which says a great deal about why mages have not been able to take over. Dwarves and Qunari have developed technologies that rival magic and do not rely on physiology.

So you think their technological terror is significant next to the power of magic? Your lack of faith is disturbing...

dwarves throw bomb, mages just simply cast buff that have resistance over physical and elemental, or simply toss the bomb away using Force Magic back to the Dwarves

Qunari use Sar Qamek? Mages just teleported away...

So you think a mage can send a high velocity projectile like a cannonball back to the sender? No likely. The bombs the drawves use explode on contact. That means contact with any opposing force. The mage will still be in the bombs area of effect. The mage will not have time to cast a buff spell and a spell to try to knock the bomb away.

Also mages do not teleport in the Dragon Age universe as stated by David Gaider. It requires the mage to cast haste and an illusion to hide the mage's movement. The result may still leave the mage within the bomb blast. Also you are assuning only one bomb would be thrown instead of several.

As Arthur C. Clarke has stated in one of his three laws: "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic."

[leaguer of one]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...



Mages don't spend their whole lives in the circle, as I have seen through dragon age origins. They seem to possess at least some right to leave the circle and pursue chantry supervised activities. 

It takes year of trust for that to happen and even then it all later was taken away.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...



Mages don't spend their whole lives in the circle, as I have seen through dragon age origins. They seem to possess at least some right to leave the circle and pursue chantry supervised activities. 

It takes year of trust for that to happen and even then it all later was taken away.

Yes, because it's the untrustworthy and shady fellows who you want to give a lot more autonomy to. That's called life, you get to excercise your rights until you violate some part of the rights agreement made between you and the right giver, and then that right is revoked. It's why the concept of arrest exists.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 06:45 .

[-Skorpious-]

When in doubt, remember that gameplay trumps lore is just about every circumstance. In-game mages can sling spell after spell with little thought, rogues can literally vanish by waving their hand, and warriors can survive being crushed to death by a 16 foot ogre.

So yeah, while gameplay may show mages being absolutely godlike, the actual lore of the setting may present a slew of problems for the caster that would make such acts impossible. For example, Biotics in Mass Effect can only use their abilities VERY SPARINGLY or risk falling unconscious mid-battle. Obviously this wouldn't make gameplay very fun. so it is ignored for the sake of a more engaging experience for the player.

Not to mention the whole "unbridled magic risks tearing the fade and allowing demons to slip through" business; nasty stuff that.

[leaguer of one]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Qistina wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Let take a look at some of the other weapons available to the qunari and dwarves. The Qunari have gaatlok which is akin to gunpowder. Gaatlok is used to power their cannons on their dreadnoughts making qunari a force to reckoned.

Saar-qamek is a poison that instills madness. What happens if a mage gets a dose of saar-gamek? Dwarves have explosives based on lyrium. Qunari and Dwarves are two most technologically advanced races.

Which says a great deal about why mages have not been able to take over. Dwarves and Qunari have developed technologies that rival magic and do not rely on physiology.

So you think their technological terror is significant next to the power of magic? Your lack of faith is disturbing...

dwarves throw bomb, mages just simply cast buff that have resistance over physical and elemental, or simply toss the bomb away using Force Magic back to the Dwarves

Qunari use Sar Qamek? Mages just teleported away...

So you think a mage can send a high velocity projectile like a cannonball back to the sender? No likely. The bombs the drawves use explode on contact. That means contact with any opposing force. The mage will still be in the bombs area of effect. The mage will not have time to cast a buff spell and a spell to try to knock the bomb away.

Also mages do not teleport in the Dragon Age universe as stated by David Gaider. It requires the mage to cast haste and an illusion to hide the mage's movement. The result may still leave the mage within the bomb blast. Also you are assuning only one bomb would be thrown instead of several.

As Arthur C. Clarke has stated in one of his three laws: "Any sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic."

It's not like mages can't use thes sciences as well. They still have alchemy and one mage did use that to blow up a chantry.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

KainD wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Sounds like you just want to be a mary sue to me. I would imagine the opposite. That if you play a mage, you'll have to accept that you aren't some walking god but just a very powerful person. One who can die from thigns just like everyone else and doesn't have a "I walk above the lower masses like I'm fabulous" card they can just pull out at any time.

And force users aren't immune to death by superior tactics, technology, or numbers. They may be powerful, but gods they are not. Not unless they go through some pretty extreme and hard to achieve steps.

Yes I want to be the best. But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy a good challange. I'm not saying that all mages or force users are Gods and have no limits, I am just saying that they always have th upper hand, they are stronger than mundanes. That, and SOME mages and force users are unlike the mundanes ( in very rare cases ) the only ones that CAN be Gods, and can achieve out of the world power. 

So you want to be the very best? Like no one ever was?

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 01 février 2014 - 06:49 .