420 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

I can't be the only one who finds the title of this thread a bit ironic...

[Lulupab]

General TSAR wrote...

Rassler wrote...

There is no evidence (yet) that spirits of duty exist, nor if duty is a good enough emotion to have its own spirit.

Good enough emotion?

Valor is a adequate enough emotion to have its own spirit (one that even looks like a Templar), I don't see why Duty can't. 

My point was can duty be considered an emotion? When you think about it Duty is not about emotion at all.

[Hellion Rex]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I can't be the only one who finds the title of this thread a bit ironic...

Nope. The minute I saw who opened this thread, I sighed in despair.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Rassler wrote...

There is no evidence (yet) that spirits of duty exist, nor if duty is a good enough emotion to have its own spirit.

Good enough emotion?

Valor is a adequate enough emotion to have its own spirit (one that even looks like a Templar), I don't see why Duty can't. 

My point was can duty be considered an emotion? When you think about it Duty is not about emotion at all.

Neither is Valor and neither is Faith. They're considered "virtues" not necessarily emotions.
Spirits and demons aren't entirely emotion based. They are also based off virtues and vices.

Modifié par eluvianix, 31 janvier 2014 - 02:58 .

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

Nope. The minute I saw who opened this thread, I sighed in despair.

The funnier part is how he refers to someone as a "kid" for having a different opinion.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...
Almost global veil tear is reason enough for spirits to start caring. It is all speculation of course but its as good as any until something is revealed. DA2 has a spirit as major character, DAA has a spirit as a major character, Asunder deals with spirits both major and minor. I'm guessing we will hear/see a lot about spirits in DA:I. Spirits will play a determining role just as demons will.

If they don't care about the mortal world, why would they care what happens to the veil?

DA2 and DAA "major" spirit characters are the same character..so not sure what you're trying to accomplush.

I'm not trying to "accomplish" anything. Same spirit or not Justice places a determining role in DAA and he changes the whole god damn plot in DA2. Cole possibily kills Lambert (I will love him for that) and we all know about faith. So far spirits very much like demons have played a quite major role in whole plot of DA universe. I'm just specualting that we will hear a lot more about spirits in DA:I. 

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

I'm not trying to "accomplish" anything. Same spirit or not Justice places a determining role in DAA and he changes the whole god damn plot in DA2. Cole possibily kills Lambert (I will love him for that) and we all know about faith. So far spirits very much like demons have played a quite major role in whole plot of DA universe. I'm just specualting that we will hear a lot more about spirits in DA:I. 

Soo...2 spirit (maybe 3) means spirits have major roles.  Ok then.

[General TSAR]

Rassler wrote...
My point was can duty be considered an emotion? When you think about it Duty is not about emotion at all.

Actually it doesn't even matter if duty is not an emotion since Spirits are virtues.

Modifié par General TSAR, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:02 .

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

Rassler wrote...

There is no evidence (yet) that spirits of duty exist, nor if duty is a good enough emotion to have its own spirit.

Good enough emotion?

Valor is a adequate enough emotion to have its own spirit (one that even looks like a Templar), I don't see why Duty can't. 

My point was can duty be considered an emotion? When you think about it Duty is not about emotion at all.

Neither is Valor and neither is Faith. They're considered "virtues" not necessarily emotions.
Spirits and demons aren't entirely emotion based. They are also based off virtues and vices.

So is duty a virtue?  "duty" is just obeying orders or legal obligations that might or might not be evil.  I think its counted as one of those neutral emotions/virtues. Its neither bad or good and can be used for both.

[CybAnt1]

Well, this is another interesting point for those in the "spirits and demons are the same" camp.

Desire, pride, hunger, sloth, rage are all pretty instinctual, gut-level emotions.

Valor, justice, compassion, faith, and hope seem to be higher-level "feelings".

Valor is hard. It requires overcoming fear and cowardice.
Justice requires ideals to pursue. Once you have them, though, it can be a powerful driving force.
Compassion? Some argue there is a learned component. There is an interesting debate about just how natural altruism is for human beings.
Hope? Again, it requires something to hope for.
Faith? Well, our modern world hates religion, so we have no respect for it, but faith can be in more than just religious matters. Sometimes we have to have "faith in each other," like the INXS song.

It's odd that the spirits seem to embody ... ideals, more than just instinctual emotions.

[ames4u]

thats1evildude wrote...

x-aizen-x wrote...

Mages can learns spells that basicly allows them to control space and time.

Mages in Thedas have very strict limitations on their power. They can't, as you put it, control space and time. They can't teleport. They can't bring back the dead (jamming spirits into corpses notwithstanding).

And while some mages are indeed very powerful, not all mages were created equal. There are some who struggle to cast even minor spells; those tend to be the mages who become Tranquil or die during their Harrowing.

The Templars also restrict what the mages learn in the magi tower and keep them under a close watch during classes. They have removed tomes that they think are too dangerous for mages to learn. I'd argue that the time warping tomes would be locked the hell away with any other spellbook that would grant a mage an edge over the templars.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

So is duty a virtue?  "duty" is just obeying orders or legal obligations that might or might not be evil.  I think its counted as one of those neutral emotions/virtues. Its neither bad or good and can be used for both.

I think Duty contains a lot more nuance than you give it credit for.

[Veruin]

ames4u wrote...

The Templars also restrict what the mages learn in the magi tower and keep them under a close watch during classes. They have removed tomes that they think are too dangerous for mages to learn. I'd argue that the time warping tomes would be locked the hell away with any other spellbook that would grant a mage an edge over the templars.

If there as such a thing, I would assume Tevinter would have used that by now.  

General rule of thumb seems to be "If Tevinter can't/doesn't have it, it's probably not possible"

[Hellion Rex]

ames4u wrote...
The Templars also restrict what the mages learn in the magi tower and keep them under a close watch during classes. They have removed tomes that they think are too dangerous for mages to learn. I'd argue that the time warping tomes would be locked the hell away with any other spellbook that would grant a mage an edge over the templars.

What "time warping" tomes are we talking about? Such magic doesn't exist (yet) in Thedas.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

I'm not trying to "accomplish" anything. Same spirit or not Justice places a determining role in DAA and he changes the whole god damn plot in DA2. Cole possibily kills Lambert (I will love him for that) and we all know about faith. So far spirits very much like demons have played a quite major role in whole plot of DA universe. I'm just specualting that we will hear a lot more about spirits in DA:I. 

Soo...2 spirit (maybe 3) means spirits have major roles.  Ok then.

You are missing the point. The whole plot of DA universe has been altered by spirits. As an example remove Leliana from DA like she never existed. The universe changes slightly and most things that happened will happen nonetheless. Same is the case with many other mortal characters.

Remove justice and the plot and universe crumbles.
Same applies to Cole and faith.

I'm repeating myself for the 4th time that this is just an specualtion and since spirits have already played very significant and prime roles in the game already, its a good speculation.

[General TSAR]

Duty is a virtue like Valor, Justice, and Faith.

Deal with it.

CybAnt1 wrote...

Faith? Well, our modern world hates religion, so we have no respect for it,

Generalization ftw. 

Modifié par General TSAR, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:18 .

[Wothen]

Veruin wrote...

ames4u wrote...

The Templars also restrict what the mages learn in the magi tower and keep them under a close watch during classes. They have removed tomes that they think are too dangerous for mages to learn. I'd argue that the time warping tomes would be locked the hell away with any other spellbook that would grant a mage an edge over the templars.

If there as such a thing, I would assume Tevinter would have used that by now.  

General rule of thumb seems to be "If Tevinter can't/doesn't have it, it's probably not possible"

It is true tho
Tevinter would use anything against the qunari
And I really mean anything

No wonder qunari are so paranoid with their own mages, the **** they must see on those frontlines must be intense

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...
You are missing the point. The whole plot of DA universe has been altered by spirits. As an example remove Leliana from DA like she never existed. The universe changes slightly and most things that happened will happen nonetheless. Same is the case with many other mortal characters.

Remove justice and the plot and universe crumbles.
Same applies to Cole and faith.

I'm repeating myself for the 4th time that this is just an specualtion and since spirits have already played very significant and prime roles in the game already, its a good speculation.

I disagree slightly. The Mage-Templar conflict was always going to happen. Adding Justice simply sped up the process. And the "universe" hasn't been altered, it's just mainland Thedas.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

You are missing the point. The whole plot of DA universe has been altered by spirits. As an example remove Leliana from DA like she never existed. The universe changes slightly and most things that happened will happen nonetheless. Same is the case with many other mortal characters.

Remove justice and the plot and universe crumbles.
Same applies to Cole and faith.

I'm repeating myself for the 4th time that this is just an specualtion and since spirits have already played very significant and prime roles in the game already, its a good speculation.

I'm not missing the point.  I just think you are exaggerating the influence spirits have.  

How does removing Justice make the plot and universe crumble?  The only plot that crumbles is DA2s. (Even that is a stretch.  Since Kirkwal was a recipe for disaster in the first place)Awakening does not suffer if Justice was not there, he is as plot relevant as Velanna or Sigrun.

See above.  I know it's speculation, but saying that it's speculation does not give you a free card to avoid criticism and questions.

Modifié par Veruin, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .

[Hugebull]

To cast magic you need to concentrate, which can be quite a difficult thing to do if you have no combat experience at all. While on the other hand, templars are warriors. They have the ability, tools and mindset that goes over mages.

As has been said many times in this thread, there are many different grades of mages in Dragon Age, some can heal, most can't. Some can create powerful and really strong damaging spells, but these mages will most likely be put to death or made tranquil on the basis that they are dangerous. Or they can become Grey Wardens etc.

Then there is armor. Templars can shrug off a fireball. I'm not saying they are invulnerable to magic, but with heavy armor and a massive shield that probably has some magic resistance enchanted upon it. Taking one down with magic is going to be quite the feat.

And then there are the mages, who uses as little clothing as possible, because it hinders their movement to use magic, which is why they wear robes. And even with spells like Rock Armor, a good stab with a templars magically infused sword will go straight through and kill the mage where he stands.

Then there is the fact that the Templar order is a military order, and the templars attack in formation and in numbers, never leaving themselves out numbered by the mages.

But this is of course only based upon that the mage has not been turned into an abomination or uses heavy blood magic. A pride demon will maul anything in its path. And sadly I can't remember how the templars abilities work when it comes to facing blood magic.

[Lulupab]

General TSAR wrote...

Duty is a virtue like Valor, Justice, and Faith.

Deal with it.

Nope. Its a good thing humanities are my thing. I know that virtue science is actually bieng studied in Universities. With just a quick search I realized Duty is not among the virtues. Feel free to check other sources as well, I'm sure you will see that Duty is not one.

www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

Duty is not a virtue, at least not a good one. You should deal with it not me.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: I think you're overstimating the role spirits will have in DAI. I doubt we'll see or hear about hundreds of spirits taking interest of Thedas. The Veil tears changes absolutely for a spirit, becuase it can remain in the Fade. And it'll likely will, because they don't have in general interest in mortals.
But even in the case some spirits will want to help, you haven't explained why mages would want to merge with spirits, expecially in the case they learn it's extremely dangerous.
Besides, spirits might not all go and help mages. There are other injustices in Thedas a Justice spirit could be interested on. Plus, depending on how mages will act during the war, it's not sure they'd want to help. The fact that one spirit of Justice wanted to help mages doesn't mean that every spirits of Justice would want to help mages.
And I guess that if a spirit of Justice would learn what happened in Asunder and DA2, regardless of which side it'd support, it'd want to kill Adrian (for sure) and Anders (maybe).

Modifié par hhh89, 31 janvier 2014 - 03:25 .

[General TSAR]

Well you certainly showed me, that site is most reputable I mean who can argue with fields like Magick and Shamanism.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: I think you're overstimating the role spirits will have in DAI. I doubt we'll see or hear about hundreds of spirits taking interest of Thedas. The Veil tears changes absolutely for a spirit, becuase it can remain in the Fade. And it'll likely will, because they don't have in general interest in mortals.
But even in the case some spirits will want to help, you haven't explained why mages would want to merge with spirits, expecially in the case they learn it's extremely dangerous.
Besides, spirits might not all go and help mages. There are other injustices in Thedas a Justice spirit could be interested on. Plus, depending on how mages will act during the war, it's not sure they'd want to help. The fact that one spirit of Justice wanted to help mages doesn't mean that every spirits of Justice would want to help mages.
And I guess that if a spirit of Justice would learn what happened in Asunder and DA2, regardless of which side it'd support, it'd want to kill Adrian (for sure) and Anders (maybe).

Justice thinks mages are in injustice right? and he didn't have much experience with mortals prior to that. Dwelling on why... It probably has to be the fact that they are locked up and hunted like wild dogs if they escape. He wouldn't want that for himself or anyone and does anything in his power to uphold his name (justice) to help mages. He is pure Justice, just because some mages might do evil it doesn't mean all of them should be locked up. Its his view point before getting corrupted and I think based on definiton of pure Justice its a correct view.

The other spirits of justice might indeed find what Adrian did punishable but when it comes to mages as a whole, they'll probably think like the Justice we know of. Just an speculation of course but it does make sense. Sure often spirits have decided to ignore mortals but as of now we have seen 3 cases where mages are interesed in spirits and all three have been able to get attention of spirits successfully and bring them here. It should be much easier with veil tear.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Considering that duty is much more than simply following orders, I think it is safe to categorize duty on par, if not part of, other virtues. There is a strong element of moral obligation, self-sacrifice and honor in the concept of duty.