This topic sort of came up in a semi-related thread, but I figured I'd give it its own place for discussion, simply because it's a question that's bothering me about the ME universe. It's pretty simple, at its core: what can non-biotics do to defend against biotics?
The trouble is we get a different answer depending on the source. In Mass Effect 1, environmental obstruction - cover, basically - didn't work in a lot of cases to defend against biotic attacks, and kinetic shielding also didn't. The Damping skill, if memory serves, could also go a long way to shutting biotics down.
In Mass Effect 2, every crate in the game was bolted to the ground, and kinetic shielding stopped biotic attacks cold.
In Mass Effect 3, cover's still bolted to the ground, and most biotic attacks, especially the "fight ender" kinds, don't work through kinetic shielding.
In the "expanded universe" of the comics and novels, from what I'm told, kinetic shielding doesn't work at all to stop biotic attacks.
So what's the deal? Depending on the source you're pulling from, for example, a squad of non-biotic soldiers encountering a hostile squad of biotic soldiers would have anywhere from an even chance to absolutely no chance at all, and I find that vagueness incredibly frustrating. Soldier's my favorite class, and I like Soldier Shep, but Biotic Shep of some sort just seems to make far more sense, given all the powerful biotics you end up fighting in the series.
Defense Against Biotics - What's The Deal?
Débuté par
Khavos
, janv. 31 2014 07:31
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#2
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 07:38
SporkFu
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You have a lot of leeway in aiming your attacks around corners, so cover being bolted to the ground isn't insurmountable.
But, nothing stops an adept with Lash as a bonus power. It has a fast recharge, and you can spec it to cut through shields.
But, nothing stops an adept with Lash as a bonus power. It has a fast recharge, and you can spec it to cut through shields.
#3
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 07:41
Khavos
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I'm less interested in the gameplay side of things than how it actually works in the Mass Effect canon, a question to which there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.SporkFu wrote...
You have a lot of leeway in aiming your attacks around corners, so cover being bolted to the ground isn't insurmountable.
But, nothing stops an adept with Lash as a bonus power. It has a fast recharge, and you can spec it to cut through shields.
#4
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 07:52
AlexMBrennan
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Anti-biotics.
Canonically, biotic powers are fairly unstoppable (I.e. the kinetic shielding does nothing) but fairly limited (I.e. human biotics have to take a nap after using throw once or twice). Since biotics are usually quite rare, it's easy to to overwhelm and shoot them.
Obviously gameplay is no longer even nominally related to lore.
Canonically, biotic powers are fairly unstoppable (I.e. the kinetic shielding does nothing) but fairly limited (I.e. human biotics have to take a nap after using throw once or twice). Since biotics are usually quite rare, it's easy to to overwhelm and shoot them.
Obviously gameplay is no longer even nominally related to lore.
Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 31 janvier 2014 - 07:52 .
#5
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 08:33
SwobyJ
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Going by what it looks like from canon..
The 'normal' biotics can be easily taken down, get tired quickly. Doesn't take much, but a good biotic move could still turn a tide.
Better biotics are powerhouses that only the best tech/ammo/protections can deal with.
And some biotics are basically demigods, wrecking all but the highest 'tier' (if that's a thing) people of other fighting types (Combat and Tech).
Combat types vary the most in standing, from total cannon fodder, to the best soldiers (up to Shepard's main 'canon' type and story).
Biotics are rarely cannon fodder, but also don't as often tend to be able to stand up to the more trained/hardened Combat types, due to inherent downsides of being a biotic. They ARE a more reliable choice for having a stronger asset though, just certainly not always.
Tech types are more about more clearly piercing the enemy's defenses and having the more definite defenses of their own. While one-on-one they seem to not be that good, on the battlefield they can disable the otherwise advantages of the Combat and Biotic types.
In story (not gameplay), yes a very well placed and timed biotic strike will rip through anything the Tech or Combat types have. This is counterbalanced, like Alex said, by things like exhaustion. Also things like lack of protection (if Barrier is interrupted), etc.
Only the most ferocious and trained of Biotics, like Liara (she is becoming very experienced), Jack (innate strength plus rage), and Samara (years of honing) for example, could sustain fighting something like an area packed with enemies alone. Both Biotics and Tech types do quite a bit better as part of a group, while it wouldn't be as unheard of to see a Combat type do just fine alone. A Tech type alone is probably the most vulnerable, unless a very power type of armoring/shielding is involved.
Even canonically, all 3 general types (and the 3 hybrid types, and the various other unique hybrids) all come to an equal ground, but the stories do really like to, at least so far, pump up the at least potential of biotics to be something that rips up a whole battlefield (at its best) and wreck everyone.
The 'normal' biotics can be easily taken down, get tired quickly. Doesn't take much, but a good biotic move could still turn a tide.
Better biotics are powerhouses that only the best tech/ammo/protections can deal with.
And some biotics are basically demigods, wrecking all but the highest 'tier' (if that's a thing) people of other fighting types (Combat and Tech).
Combat types vary the most in standing, from total cannon fodder, to the best soldiers (up to Shepard's main 'canon' type and story).
Biotics are rarely cannon fodder, but also don't as often tend to be able to stand up to the more trained/hardened Combat types, due to inherent downsides of being a biotic. They ARE a more reliable choice for having a stronger asset though, just certainly not always.
Tech types are more about more clearly piercing the enemy's defenses and having the more definite defenses of their own. While one-on-one they seem to not be that good, on the battlefield they can disable the otherwise advantages of the Combat and Biotic types.
In story (not gameplay), yes a very well placed and timed biotic strike will rip through anything the Tech or Combat types have. This is counterbalanced, like Alex said, by things like exhaustion. Also things like lack of protection (if Barrier is interrupted), etc.
Only the most ferocious and trained of Biotics, like Liara (she is becoming very experienced), Jack (innate strength plus rage), and Samara (years of honing) for example, could sustain fighting something like an area packed with enemies alone. Both Biotics and Tech types do quite a bit better as part of a group, while it wouldn't be as unheard of to see a Combat type do just fine alone. A Tech type alone is probably the most vulnerable, unless a very power type of armoring/shielding is involved.
Even canonically, all 3 general types (and the 3 hybrid types, and the various other unique hybrids) all come to an equal ground, but the stories do really like to, at least so far, pump up the at least potential of biotics to be something that rips up a whole battlefield (at its best) and wreck everyone.
#6
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 08:40
SwobyJ
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A biotic squad is probably going to be better overall, but they have more complications.
It's really the Red vs Blue thing.
Red is more reliable, higher potential power but only very few get that strong.
Blue is more variable, reliant on more factors, but overall higher power level, and more of that type get stronger (though not necessarily the strongest).
A non-biotic that hones his own abilities (without the biotic training to distract those other skills) has the potential to take down any biotic. Just more often, that's not going to happen. But we have plenty of examples of biotics just not being tough or mentally or physically agile and strong enough to face a more dedicated enemy.
There's themes at play here. How, like, biotics makes one literally stronger, but also adds a complicating factor to their abilities that they have more to take account of. Do you hit enemy A and then feel weak afterward? Or do you shoot A, then hope you can make a good biotic Throw on B? A Combat oriented character, would instead just find a solid vantage point and shoot them both, letting their heavier armor and built in barriers absorb most hits coming their way - a benefit that biotics do not as often enjoy.
It's really the Red vs Blue thing.
Red is more reliable, higher potential power but only very few get that strong.
Blue is more variable, reliant on more factors, but overall higher power level, and more of that type get stronger (though not necessarily the strongest).
A non-biotic that hones his own abilities (without the biotic training to distract those other skills) has the potential to take down any biotic. Just more often, that's not going to happen. But we have plenty of examples of biotics just not being tough or mentally or physically agile and strong enough to face a more dedicated enemy.
There's themes at play here. How, like, biotics makes one literally stronger, but also adds a complicating factor to their abilities that they have more to take account of. Do you hit enemy A and then feel weak afterward? Or do you shoot A, then hope you can make a good biotic Throw on B? A Combat oriented character, would instead just find a solid vantage point and shoot them both, letting their heavier armor and built in barriers absorb most hits coming their way - a benefit that biotics do not as often enjoy.
#7
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 02:32
cap and gown
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This didn't apply to ME1, but the trend since then seems to be that biotic powers are limited by the type. Physics based biotics (the kind that toss people/things around) generally don't work on enemies with protection. Other types of biotics that effect an enemy without a physics element (such as dark channel, reave, etc.) are able to effect all enemy defenses, though some more than others.
#8
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:21
CrutchCricket
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armor lolSporkFu wrote...
But, nothing stops an adept with Lash as a bonus power. It has a fast recharge, and you can spec it to cut through shields.
Ba-dum tssh!AlexMBrennan wrote...
Anti-biotics.
My answer: shoot them in the face. Preferably from a distance with a high-powered rifle. That's how I did it in ME1, that's how I've always done it... and it's worked out pretty well so far.
#9
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:23
SwobyJ
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CrutchCricket wrote...
My answer: shoot them in the face. Preferably from a distance with a high-powered rifle. That's how I did it in ME1, that's how I've always done it... and it's worked out pretty well so far.
Currently best and most direct way to deal with anything ..blue.
(Oh god, I'm not talking about Asari. I like them. I'm talking about themes. I'll stop now.)
#10
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:23
Han Shot First
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So what's the deal? Depending on the source you're pulling from, for example, a squad of non-biotic soldiers encountering a hostile squad of biotic soldiers would have anywhere from an even chance to absolutely no chance at all, and I find that vagueness incredibly frustrating.
In the games contact occurs at close quarters.
In the real world outside of urban areas the typical combat engagement starts at around 300 meters out or beyond. In a war contact between two opposing forces would be more likely to occur at ranges where biotics were ineffective. Biotics would be more of a problem to deal with when contact occurred at close range, such as in an urban setting or in terrain with dense vegetation.
Also, artillery.
In the games Shepardand and his team are nearly always without artillery support. Realistically that would not be the case for the average infantryman. A biotic would be just as vulnerable to enemy artillery as his or her non-biotic comrades. Artillery (or mortars) could be used to neutralize them just as it is currently used to neutralize machine guns or snipers.
Modifié par Han Shot First, 31 janvier 2014 - 06:34 .
#11
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:32
Khavos
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I'm unclear why you think biotic attacks wouldn't be effective at range.
Incidentally, long rifle fire in combat is relatively rare. In World War I, Omar Bradley reported that average engagement distance was twenty-five to fifty yards. In Afghanistan, almost a century later, average engagement distance was...twenty to thirty meters, with shots over one hundred meters reported, at least by the Marines, as being rare.
Incidentally, long rifle fire in combat is relatively rare. In World War I, Omar Bradley reported that average engagement distance was twenty-five to fifty yards. In Afghanistan, almost a century later, average engagement distance was...twenty to thirty meters, with shots over one hundred meters reported, at least by the Marines, as being rare.
#12
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:40
Han Shot First
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Khavos wrote...
I'm unclear why you think biotic attacks wouldn't be effective at range.
They can't be used at long ranges.
Khavos wrote..
Incidentally, long rifle fire in combat is relatively rare. In World War I, Omar Bradley reported that average engagement distance was twenty-five to fifty yards. In Afghanistan, almost a century later, average engagement distance was...twenty to thirty meters, with shots over one hundred meters reported, at least by the Marines, as being rare.
Combat often occurred at close ranges in WW1 because the system of trenches often reduced the separation between opposing armies. Your enemies might be dug in 100 meters away.
As for Aghanistan, that bit is incorrect.
"Comments from returning non-commissioned officers and officers reveal that about fifty percent of engagements occur past 300 meters.”
Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer (Warning: PDF)
Modifié par Han Shot First, 31 janvier 2014 - 06:40 .
#13
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 06:48
CrutchCricket
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lol. Careful. Liara fans are nigh...SwobyJ wrote...
Currently best and most direct way to deal with anything ..blue.
(Oh god, I'm not talking about Asari. I like them. I'm talking about themes. I'll stop now.)
#14
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 07:01
Village_Idiot
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As far as the lore goes, biotics are quickly physically exhausted by using their powers (hence their high calorie diets). In "real life", it seems unlikely that biotics would be able to spam attacks as relentlessly as occurs in-game, at least not over an extended period of time.
#15
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 07:58
Frybread76
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Yeah it's always tricky comparing video games and their novel/comic book and movie canons.
#16
Posté 31 janvier 2014 - 09:50
eyezonlyii
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this is why I actually loved the long cooldown times of ME1. It seemed more realistic that I biotic would use a power, then need to catch their breath like running a sprint before throwing another one.
#17
Posté 01 février 2014 - 12:57
cap and gown
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Han Shot First wrote...
Also, artillery.
In the games Shepardand and his team are nearly always without artillery support. Realistically that would not be the case for the average infantryman. A biotic would be just as vulnerable to enemy artillery as his or her non-biotic comrades. Artillery (or mortars) could be used to neutralize them just as it is currently used to neutralize machine guns or snipers.
While it is rather incongrous that you have no air/artillery support in ME, I do not believe biotics are as vulnerable as non-biotics, not with that bubble they can put up. Look at the artillery hits on that bubble on Thessia.
Modifié par cap and gown, 01 février 2014 - 12:58 .
#18
Posté 01 février 2014 - 03:23
RangerSG
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cap and gown wrote...
Han Shot First wrote...
Also, artillery.
In the games Shepardand and his team are nearly always without artillery support. Realistically that would not be the case for the average infantryman. A biotic would be just as vulnerable to enemy artillery as his or her non-biotic comrades. Artillery (or mortars) could be used to neutralize them just as it is currently used to neutralize machine guns or snipers.
While it is rather incongrous that you have no air/artillery support in ME, I do not believe biotics are as vulnerable as non-biotics, not with that bubble they can put up. Look at the artillery hits on that bubble on Thessia.
True, but even that caved in the end. A relentless barrier means all-out-defense, and zero attack. That only works if you're covered by gunships and platoons to clear out the enemy artillery. Otherwise, even an Asari Commando's barrier fails.
Biotics 1v1, if both sides are prepared, will almost always win in lore. But it's not so overwhelming an advantage that the average biotic would trash a canon Shepard, or even a Krogan battleraging. That said, once biotics reveal their skills, they're Priority A targets. In a large scale battle, if we're not talking Asari, your average biotic is going to be overwhelmed by superior firepower very quickly if they don't have support on hand.
Like anything else in infantry combat, the best defense is superior firepower from a superior position. Biotics doesn't change this central truth of infantry warfare. Especially since snipers and fire support will be staged out of range of your typical biotic.
In this the game is pretty consistent in stating the downside. When the Asari faced the Reapers, they were able to hold their own, as long as the battle stayed true to their tactics: Non-traditional warfare. Hit and run. But once the Reapers brought full force to bear in close quarter combat, biotics didn't do more than forestall the inevitable. It's never as simple as biotics=win button.
Modifié par RangerSG, 01 février 2014 - 03:33 .
#19
Posté 01 février 2014 - 03:26
SwobyJ
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Biotics are MEU Mages.
So yes, they can rock a battle. And maybe rule over everyone (hypothetically, but personally I even consider the Leviathans to be biotics).
But yeah, don't consider them automatically better. It's a skillset, not instantly superior status. Plenty of defenses against it.
So yes, they can rock a battle. And maybe rule over everyone (hypothetically, but personally I even consider the Leviathans to be biotics).
But yeah, don't consider them automatically better. It's a skillset, not instantly superior status. Plenty of defenses against it.
#21
Posté 01 février 2014 - 06:48
Khavos
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What's your source for that, out of curiosity?Han Shot First wrote...
Khavos wrote...
I'm unclear why you think biotic attacks wouldn't be effective at range.
They can't be used at long ranges.
I guess I'm not seeing the "plenty of defenses" thing. Kinetic shielding doesn't work. Range may or may not work, I haven't seen that one answered definitively. So far we've basically got, "Hope they get tired."SwobyJ wrote...
Biotics are MEU Mages.
So yes, they can rock a battle. And maybe rule over everyone (hypothetically, but personally I even consider the Leviathans to be biotics).
But yeah, don't consider them automatically better. It's a skillset, not instantly superior status. Plenty of defenses against it.
#22
Posté 01 février 2014 - 06:59
RangerSG
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Khavos wrote...
What's your source for that, out of curiosity?Han Shot First wrote...
Khavos wrote...
I'm unclear why you think biotic attacks wouldn't be effective at range.
They can't be used at long ranges.I guess I'm not seeing the "plenty of defenses" thing. Kinetic shielding doesn't work. Range may or may not work, I haven't seen that one answered definitively. So far we've basically got, "Hope they get tired."SwobyJ wrote...
Biotics are MEU Mages.
So yes, they can rock a battle. And maybe rule over everyone (hypothetically, but personally I even consider the Leviathans to be biotics).
But yeah, don't consider them automatically better. It's a skillset, not instantly superior status. Plenty of defenses against it.
Ok, so no matter how many times we point out something that will work, you're going to say it doesn't. Because you think biotics must trump everything.
So what's the point of having a conversation about something when you're not really interested in actually interacting with answers?
Modifié par RangerSG, 01 février 2014 - 06:59 .
#23
Posté 01 février 2014 - 07:11
SwobyJ
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It's not 'hope they get tired'. They do get tired fast, all but the most powerful.
Kinetic shielding does work, just not in some parts of the EU. Well no duh, that's EU, with stuff like...a certain book. Heavy armor also works.
I don't even know why you're talking about crates in ME2. That was clearly an engine problem, and having them fly around in ME1 on the 360 chugged framerates for me. So it's a non factor either way.
Anyway, the better rules to follow would be ME2-3 in terms of things that are easily understood ( mean crates? Really? That's a weird example to talk about for anything).
Biotics aren't anything that very good tech in the MEU couldn't circumvent or yes, eventually emulate (but not for now).
~~~
At least in gameplay and cinematics, biotics have a clearly low to mid range (not long range, it would require crazy precision and effort even if so). And when biotics are cast, it opens one up to sniper fire unless a personal barrier is maintained.
It's all a balance, and intentionally. Maybe you can't understand that, but Combat, Biotics, and Tech are meant to be balanced overall, even if Rock sometimes breaks Scissors once in a while.
In the broadest sense (I know there are exceptions here, many of them):
Combat --> Short Range (not even only literally, considering sniper rifles, but figuratively)
Biotics --> Mid Range
Tech --> Long Range
When casting Combat abilities, with exceptions, they're most useful when an enemy is right in front of your face for a clear cast.
When casting Biotic abilities, they could be cast short range, and maybe in some ways long range, but they are best when an enemy is mid range and can be easily manipulated.
When casting Tech abilities, they can be cast any range, but they are ideal to shoot off at long range, setting up the whole field and how the battlefield proceeds and how the enemies are weakened.
In story and in mechanics, but yes, specifically for story, Biotics have the greatest range of uses in more typical forms of combat (so not talking about more sneaky stuff). However, that sniper can eff em up. And that soldier can easily interrupt a biotics cast.
I really don't know why you consider Biotics to be so powerful. They're an evolution, but a specific kind, and one with downsides.
Kinetic shielding does work, just not in some parts of the EU. Well no duh, that's EU, with stuff like...a certain book. Heavy armor also works.
I don't even know why you're talking about crates in ME2. That was clearly an engine problem, and having them fly around in ME1 on the 360 chugged framerates for me. So it's a non factor either way.
Anyway, the better rules to follow would be ME2-3 in terms of things that are easily understood ( mean crates? Really? That's a weird example to talk about for anything).
Biotics aren't anything that very good tech in the MEU couldn't circumvent or yes, eventually emulate (but not for now).
~~~
At least in gameplay and cinematics, biotics have a clearly low to mid range (not long range, it would require crazy precision and effort even if so). And when biotics are cast, it opens one up to sniper fire unless a personal barrier is maintained.
It's all a balance, and intentionally. Maybe you can't understand that, but Combat, Biotics, and Tech are meant to be balanced overall, even if Rock sometimes breaks Scissors once in a while.
In the broadest sense (I know there are exceptions here, many of them):
Combat --> Short Range (not even only literally, considering sniper rifles, but figuratively)
Biotics --> Mid Range
Tech --> Long Range
When casting Combat abilities, with exceptions, they're most useful when an enemy is right in front of your face for a clear cast.
When casting Biotic abilities, they could be cast short range, and maybe in some ways long range, but they are best when an enemy is mid range and can be easily manipulated.
When casting Tech abilities, they can be cast any range, but they are ideal to shoot off at long range, setting up the whole field and how the battlefield proceeds and how the enemies are weakened.
In story and in mechanics, but yes, specifically for story, Biotics have the greatest range of uses in more typical forms of combat (so not talking about more sneaky stuff). However, that sniper can eff em up. And that soldier can easily interrupt a biotics cast.
I really don't know why you consider Biotics to be so powerful. They're an evolution, but a specific kind, and one with downsides.
Modifié par SwobyJ, 01 février 2014 - 07:12 .
#24
Posté 01 février 2014 - 07:11
SwobyJ
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So what's the point of having a conversation about something when you're not really interested in actually interacting with answers?
#25
Posté 01 février 2014 - 07:17
Lord Watson
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Cover, armor, and dodge + bullet to the face worked for me.
Even if biotics were effective at long range the sight radius from eyes to hand isn't that long, and as Swoby pointed out that'd require some extreme accuracy and/or luck. Being off by a mm equals missing by several feet at long range.
Even if biotics were effective at long range the sight radius from eyes to hand isn't that long, and as Swoby pointed out that'd require some extreme accuracy and/or luck. Being off by a mm equals missing by several feet at long range.
