31 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

I only have a little game experience with Rgr/ Bard/ AA, but with a pure pre-Epic Ranger, the BAB difference is not a problem. And I prefer Half-Elf anyway; saves the -2 Con, XP loss, and am able to toggle perception as desired.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

MagicalMaster wrote...
If you only take 1 or 2 levels of Bard or Wizard pre-epic there's no BAB difference.

True. And if you're going to take Wizard instead of Bard there really isn't any reason to take more than 1 level.

Part of the issue for me is that most of the min/max builds I see are great for playing after the character hits level 40, but don't offer as much playability while you're going through the early stages of play. If you're playing a module from level 1 to nearly level 40 you might want a character that has more versatility throughout the entire adventure. I would take a level of Bard every 5 levels starting at level 2 to get the +1 AC from tumble, and to keep getting benifits from UMD to be able to use more of the magical equipment that would otherwise be unavailable to a Ranger/Wizard/AA. Not to mention the buffs that are available from Bardsong even in places where magic doesn't work. (we have such places on the PW where I play)

In any case, I didn't intend to get into a debate about which build is better. I originally just through out the idea because it's a fun alternative to the usual AA character builds.  

[Mystery X]

MrZork wrote...

I pretty much agree with that tip. Aside from the availability of Cat's Grace as a self-buff from ranger level 8 or 10, if the toon has 12+ wisdom, which the ones listed here do not, most ranger/AAs would do as well or better as fighter/AAs to take advantage of the extra feats and Weapon Specialization. The exception might be a fairly ranger-heavy build that made good use of Favored Enemy and Bane of Enemies and which might have an animal companion to help with tanking.

-----
Edit: I won't delete the post, but I just realized that what I was considering is not possible.  I can't take Bane of Enemies because it requires at least 21 levels of Ranger, which I don't and won't have.
-----

Perhaps another good question yet to consider for me is whether I should work in Bane of Enemies.

I have currently played through 24th level.  At 21st level, I took Epic Weapon Focus for Longbow.  At 24th level, I took Great Dexterity I and Great Dexterity II (I had an Arcane Archer bonus feat).

At 25th level, I have been planning to take a Ranger level.  I would top of the Search skill for scouting, take a 3rd Favored Enemy (adding Abberations- I already have Humans and Outsiders), and work the bonuses for Favored Enemy to +3.

I think I could take any bonus feat instead of Favored Enemy, so I could take Bane of Enemies instead.  (Though I know some spoilers with the current module- I would get lots of use with Favored Enemy vs. Abberations at the end of the game.)

Alternately, I could skip taking the Ranger level at 25, and take it at 27.  I'd put off the +3 bonus a few more levels, take Favored Enemy with the Ranger bonus feat, and take Bane of Enemies with my 27th level feat.  That means I'm skipping a Great Dexterity.

I had wanted to maximize Dexterity by taking Great Dexterity ten times.  Though this module won't take me to 40th level, I wouldn't actually get a chance to take it ten times anyway.

Modifié par Mystery X, 05 février 2014 - 08:38 .

[Elhanan]

The build I base my own Rgr/ Bard/ AA is from the Banebow by WebShaman:

http://home.comcast....uild205934.html

It offers decent versatility, and is playable from 1-40th.

[Mystery X]

MrZork wrote...

I pretty much agree with that tip. Aside from the availability of Cat's Grace as a self-buff from ranger level 8 or 10, if the toon has 12+ wisdom, which the ones listed here do not, most ranger/AAs would do as well or better as fighter/AAs to take advantage of the extra feats and Weapon Specialization. The exception might be a fairly ranger-heavy build that made good use of Favored Enemy and Bane of Enemies and which might have an animal companion to help with tanking.

I am not too experienced with the rules, but it seems to me that Arcane Archer isn't the kind of class that just gets mixed in.  The bonuses for Enchant Arrow progress so quickly, that there is little any other class has to offer to justify sacrificing those Enchant Arrow bonuses.

How many levels of Arcane Archer would have to be sacrificed to get 21 Ranger levels for Bane of Enemies?  10 levels of Arcane Archer?  That is giving up a +5 enchancement bonus to every single arrow fired.  It is a bonus that stacks with everything else, without subject to cap, applying to every single enemy.  That beats Bane of Enemies easily.  Plus, Great Dexterity is on the Arcane Archer's list of epic bonus feats, but not on the Ranger's.

As far as combat ability, Fighter does make more sense than Ranger.  The Fighter's extra feats and Weapon Specialization are more useful than the Ranger's two-weapon fighting, animal companion, and spells.  The problem with the Fighter is low skill points and lack of class scouting skills, so the tradeoff for the extra combat ability is loss of scouting ability.

But to overall build, it seems that any Arcane Archer build should be heavy with the Arcane Archer class- get the first 10 levels as fast as possible, end with 26 to 30 levels.  The Enchant Arrow ability is that good.

[Elhanan]

Mystery X wrote...

I am not too experienced with the rules, but it seems to me that Arcane Archer isn't the kind of class that just gets mixed in.  The bonuses for Enchant Arrow progress so quickly, that there is little any other class has to offer to justify sacrificing those Enchant Arrow bonuses.

How many levels of Arcane Archer would have to be sacrificed to get 21 Ranger levels for Bane of Enemies?  10 levels of Arcane Archer?  That is giving up a +5 enchancement bonus to every single arrow fired.  It is a bonus that stacks with everything else, without subject to cap, applying to every single enemy.  That beats Bane of Enemies easily.  Plus, Great Dexterity is on the Arcane Archer's list of epic bonus feats, but not on the Ranger's.

As far as combat ability, Fighter does make more sense than Ranger.  The Fighter's extra feats and Weapon Specialization are more useful than the Ranger's two-weapon fighting, animal companion, and spells.  The problem with the Fighter is low skill points and lack of class scouting skills, so the tradeoff for the extra combat ability is loss of scouting ability.

But to overall build, it seems that any Arcane Archer build should be heavy with the Arcane Archer class- get the first 10 levels as fast as possible, end with 26 to 30 levels.  The Enchant Arrow ability is that good.

21 lvls of Ranger grants +5 Favored Enemy bonus which is effective against selected foes that are Immune to Crits (eg; Undead, Golems, Elementals, etc), and works with any weapon including unarmed. Plus this bonus is used with Spot, Listen, and Taunt against such foes.

Bane of Enemy allows another +2 AB and +2d6 dmg to said enemies.

Ranger has more Skill pts and a wider range of selections including Animal Empathy, perception skills and Set Traps.

Ranger has access to spells, while Fighter has none.

Personally, versatility is a primary focus for my choices, and the Rgr/ Bard/ AA offers this.

Modifié par Elhanan, 05 février 2014 - 09:55 .

[Mirgalen]

Altor my latest AA completed "The Gem Tower" at lvl 39 with ease. I simply went for an elf ZEN Ranger9/wizard1/AA Str based. He had the AA required feats, the Dev Crit required feats and zen archery pre-epic. Good luck.