199 réponses à ce sujet

[jrob6]

MetalDeggial wrote...

The Drell Assassin holds down the line way better than the GI. So if you are gonna camp, the mine is amazing as constant debuff and cleanup with power amplifiers, allowing you to take down wave after Platinum wave of full health minions and weakened armored enemies without breaking a sweat. In maps like Giant and White, you can stay in one spot and take on the hordes by your lonesome without dying once.

However, in a full team, spawn rushing and nuking, with everyone doing their own thing, the GI is better than any other character in the game. There's just no way to compete with it. The Drell has to deploy his mine constantly, and in the time it takes to arm it, detonate it and re-deploy, the GI already has mopped the floor with everything, no matter what difficulty setting you chose.

They are good for different things really.

The DAI doesn't have to spam recon mine at range with a sniper rifle to be effective.  

[me0120]

jrob6 wrote...

MetalDeggial wrote...

The Drell Assassin holds down the line way better than the GI. So if you are gonna camp, the mine is amazing as constant debuff and cleanup with power amplifiers, allowing you to take down wave after Platinum wave of full health minions and weakened armored enemies without breaking a sweat. In maps like Giant and White, you can stay in one spot and take on the hordes by your lonesome without dying once.

However, in a full team, spawn rushing and nuking, with everyone doing their own thing, the GI is better than any other character in the game. There's just no way to compete with it. The Drell has to deploy his mine constantly, and in the time it takes to arm it, detonate it and re-deploy, the GI already has mopped the floor with everything, no matter what difficulty setting you chose.

They are good for different things really.

The DAI doesn't have to spam recon mine at range with a sniper rifle to be effective.  

Bah, why use a sniper rifle when you can use an Arc Pistol?

[millahnna]

The RoF bonus on the GI does actually help with the Claymore a little bit; speeds up the reload animation and therefore the reload cancel. Only character I can reliably RC with that gun on.

Modifié par millahnna, 01 février 2014 - 12:36 .

[MGW7]

Deerber wrote...

Damage per shot isn't everything.

The accuracy boost is, effectively, a damage boost to anything that's further away than 5 m. And a big one at that.

Other than that, the claymore actually does benefit from rof bonuses. although not fully. 15% more RoF will result in something like 7-8% faster overall recharge speed. It's small, but it's there.

And there's also the fact that PM does more damage than SF, so in the damage per cloak cycle calculation the GI has yet another advantage.

Plus, you compared them both with a shotgun gear, while realistically the only way their performance is going to be roughly equal is if the AIU takes the geth scanner. Which drops the damage per shot to 6.4 k.

Finally, Narida is not always right. Its results do not seem suspicious to me this time, but... Better be aware of it.

All in all, the +25% accuracy makes the entire world of a difference.

I was talking in terms of raw dps of the claymore

1. raw damage dealing does not discriminate range, accuracy is moot, a predator out dps's a reegar at enough distance

2. the tiny change in the delay after firing does not effect dps in a significant way, except on a select few weapons that are not the claymore

3. I wasn't taking into account damage form other sources, purely the claymore shot itself, but what you say is true, his mine does more damage, but the shotgun does not

4. What the h*ll does the geth scanner have to do with anything, I wasn't talking about wall hacking, just raw damage output, as if a trooper was standing with his head against the end of the barrel, for all intents and purposes the shotgun amp is the most relevant gear

edits

2b, to clarify, the slight change in reload speed has far less of an effect than reload canceling does,

5. I chose 6a fitness because it is relevant, and although unreliable does give her a boost the gi simply has no answer for. but even without it she does out damage the gi shot for shot

Modifié par MGW7, 01 février 2014 - 12:36 .

[millahnna]

MGW7 wrote...
for all intensive purposes

INTENTS AND PURPOSES.  Sorry.  Grammar peeve of mine.  Good post that one just gets to me like "alot" does.

[MGW7]

millahnna wrote...

MGW7 wrote...
for all intensive purposes

INTENTS AND PURPOSES.  Sorry.  Grammar peeve of mine.  Good post that one just gets to me like "alot" does.

my apologies, fixing

[millahnna]

Sorry if I sounded super snotty about it. Just one of those things, you know? I can ignore a there/they're/their bork with more ease for some reason.

[MGW7]

millahnna wrote...

Sorry if I sounded super snotty about it. Just one of those things, you know? I can ignore a there/they're/their bork with more ease for some reason.

Oh I know, I hate when people talk about the geth scanner like it's the end all be all super gear that is somehow godmode,

[TheNightSlasher]

me0120 wrote...

jrob6 wrote...

MetalDeggial wrote...

The Drell Assassin holds down the line way better than the GI. So if you are gonna camp, the mine is amazing as constant debuff and cleanup with power amplifiers, allowing you to take down wave after Platinum wave of full health minions and weakened armored enemies without breaking a sweat. In maps like Giant and White, you can stay in one spot and take on the hordes by your lonesome without dying once.

However, in a full team, spawn rushing and nuking, with everyone doing their own thing, the GI is better than any other character in the game. There's just no way to compete with it. The Drell has to deploy his mine constantly, and in the time it takes to arm it, detonate it and re-deploy, the GI already has mopped the floor with everything, no matter what difficulty setting you chose.

They are good for different things really.

The DAI doesn't have to spam recon mine at range with a sniper rifle to be effective.  

Bah, why use a sniper rifle when you can use an Arc Pistol?

QFT.

[Deerber]

MGW7 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Damage per shot isn't everything.

The accuracy boost is, effectively, a damage boost to anything that's further away than 5 m. And a big one at that.

Other than that, the claymore actually does benefit from rof bonuses. although not fully. 15% more RoF will result in something like 7-8% faster overall recharge speed. It's small, but it's there.

And there's also the fact that PM does more damage than SF, so in the damage per cloak cycle calculation the GI has yet another advantage.

Plus, you compared them both with a shotgun gear, while realistically the only way their performance is going to be roughly equal is if the AIU takes the geth scanner. Which drops the damage per shot to 6.4 k.

Finally, Narida is not always right. Its results do not seem suspicious to me this time, but... Better be aware of it.

All in all, the +25% accuracy makes the entire world of a difference.

I was talking in terms of raw dps of the claymore

1. raw damage dealing does not discriminate range, accuracy is moot, a predator out dps's a reegar at enough distance

2. the tiny change in the delay after firing does not effect dps in a significant way, except on a select few weapons that are not the claymore

3. I wasn't taking into account damage form other sources, purely the claymore shot itself, but what you say is true, his mine does more damage, but the shotgun does not

4. What the h*ll does the geth scanner have to do with anything, I wasn't talking about wall hacking, just raw damage output, as if a trooper was standing with his head against the end of the barrel, for all intensive purposes the shotgun amp is the most relevant gear

edits

2b, to clarify, the slight change in reload speed has far less of an effect than reload canceling does,

5. I chose 6a fitness because it is relevant, and although unreliable does give her a boost the gi simply has no answer for. but even without it she does out damage the gi shot for shot

Then you are comparing two things that have very low chances of actually being compared in game. Don't fall to the traps of theorycrafting: it's moot unless it takes into consideration practical experience.

Sure, the AIU does more damage per shot with a claymore on paper.

In practice, the GI is better than her with a claymore in hand. And not slightly.

Why? Well, read my post above and you'll know. I compared them under what would be the practical situations they encounter in game. No AIU with half a bit of brain would ever equip a shotgun gear, nor it would go around meleeing stuff to get the 6a bonus. The thing which makes the most difference, however, is that no AIU would be able to put down as many pellets as a GI into an enemy at range.

That said, I think you might not have the mechanics of the reload clear. When you fire the last bullet in a gun's clip, you need to wait for the full RoF (okay, 1/RoF technically) before you can start reloading it. Then you can cancel the reload as usual. So, RoF bonuses do help single shot weapons too, although not fully: they reduce the delay before you can start recharging and, thus, the duration of the recharge itself. So they do increase your RoF... Just not as much as your RoF increase would suggest. In the case of the claymore, since the time you need to wait before you can start the reload is roughly equal to the duration of the (canceled) reload, the RoF bonus is roughly cut in half. But it's still something...

[didacuscarr]

Depends on what weapon.

[Sulaco_7]

I think someone said it before, for the DI, you can't effectively use the mine unless you camp, no?

Modifié par Sulaco_7, 01 février 2014 - 01:00 .

[XxproknifaxX]

 TGI

[me0120]

Sulaco_7 wrote...

I think someone said it before, for the DI, you can't effectively use the mine unless you camp, no?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, oh dear. 

*sheds tear laughing*

[millahnna]

Sulaco_7 wrote...

I think someone said it before, for the DI, you can't effectively use the mine unless you camp, no?

The impression I get form watching good players with him is that he makes it easier to hold a line for a while if needed but that this is by no means the only/best way to make use of the mines.  Again, I suck with him.  This is just the sense I get watching really good DI players who makes extensive use of the mines with a sniping setup. 

[MGW7]

Deerber wrote...
Then you are comparing two things that have very low chances of actually being compared in game. Don't fall to the traps of theorycrafting: it's moot unless it takes into consideration practical experience.

Sure, the AIU does more damage per shot with a claymore on paper.

In practice, the GI is better than her with a claymore in hand. And not slightly.

Why? Well, read my post above and you'll know. I compared them under what would be the practical situations they encounter in game. No AIU with half a bit of brain would ever equip a shotgun gear, nor it would go around meleeing stuff to get the 6a bonus. The thing which makes the most difference, however, is that no AIU would be able to put down as many pellets as a GI into an enemy at range.

That said, I think you might not have the mechanics of the reload clear. When you fire the last bullet in a gun's clip, you need to wait for the full RoF (okay, 1/RoF technically) before you can start reloading it. Then you can cancel the reload as usual. So, RoF bonuses do help single shot weapons too, although not fully: they reduce the delay before you can start recharging and, thus, the duration of the recharge itself. So they do increase your RoF... Just not as much as your RoF increase would suggest. In the case of the claymore, since the time you need to wait before you can start the reload is roughly equal to the duration of the (canceled) reload, the RoF bonus is roughly cut in half. But it's still something...

I know about the rof based reload delay, it's the same reason the wraith 's short reload still takes a while to preform in a pinch,

I could argue that the superior durability of the aiu allows here to get far closer safely, that she does not need to worry about range, And just because she doesn't take the pure shotgun gear does not mean she isn't taking say, the berserker gear,

And what stops her from meleeing things for the bonus

edit,

as inaccurate as theory crafting can be, what other measures do we have that aren't skill determined
A good player > A bad player, and even the same player will be better with one than the other,

it's not the best solution, but it is a reliable one

Modifié par MGW7, 01 février 2014 - 02:03 .

[geordiep]

I dunno what all the fuss is about concerning the GI.. I find other Infiltrators out damage him on every weapon other than the Javelin. Even then the Drell just feels better with snipers, EDI-bot for shotguns, Tghost for Rifles and the Huntress absolutely rocks with the particle rifle.

GI used to be the best Infiltrator..Not any more.IMO.

[didacuscarr]

geordiep wrote...

I dunno what all the fuss is about concerning the GI.. I find other Infiltrators out damage him on every weapon other than the Javelin. Even then the Drell just feels better with snipers, EDI-bot for shotguns, Tghost for Rifles and the Huntress absolutely rocks with the particle rifle.

GI used to be the best Infiltrator..Not any more.IMO.

Sounds like you are skipping a power?

[Kislitsin]

@MGW7 man, srsly?
All the things you have mentioned are called - theoretical DPS, Deerber talks about practical dps, GI is unrivaled here with any weapon.

Also lol at tankiness as a factor of deeps. Only two guns when durability really matters (at least for me) are ppr and brophoon, accidentaly those are the best guns...

[LemurFromTheId]

LOL @ ROF bonus not mattering with Claymore. When reload canceling, +15 ROF effectively gives you +6.6% DPS boost that's multiplicative with everything. +15% damage bonus in its place would be actually worse on a GI. In other words, it's better than shotgun gear.

[MGW7]

Aedolon wrote...

LOL @ ROF bonus not mattering with Claymore. When reload canceling, +15 ROF effectively gives you +6.6% DPS boost that's multiplicative with everything. +15% damage bonus in its place would be actually worse on a GI. In other words, it's better than shotgun gear.

6.6% hm,
so with the aiu pulling 6798 damage per shot, with melee synergy, and 6232 without
and the Gi pulling 5735

the relative increase in dps is equal to a per shot bonus equating to 6113.5 damage per shot for the GI, (5738*1.066)
even with the rof boost, and if the aiu isn't pulling the melee bonus the aiu still has a higher theoretical damage output,

I realize that the GI has a very significant accuracy advantage, but accuracy only effects dps if you miss, which is in part a skill based human factor, and so I've ignored it because if the aiu hits every shot it does not matter how good the GI's accuracy boost is,

I also chose shotgun amp because it is the max bonus, and if you are dropping your dps for some frivolous vision bonus than you can't say the other is better with the amp

only the aiu has the CAPACITY, to out dps the gi with the claymore, not that it always will, that is the point I'm trying to make, not that the aiu is truly better

Kislitsin wrote...
@MGW7 man, srsly?

Also lol at tankiness as a factor of deeps. Only two guns when durability really matters (at least for me) are ppr and brophoon, accidentaly those are the best guns...

I'm not sure if I'm serious anymore,
anyways, you saying tankiness means nothing is no different than me saying accuracy means nothing, if you need to hide to regen your shields you aren't dealing damage, if the gi misses then his accuracy bonus amounts to nothing,

tankiness is a human factor, accuracy is a human factor, neither effect theoretical dps, so neither matter to my argument

Modifié par MGW7, 01 février 2014 - 07:26 .

[me0120]

MGW7 wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

LOL @ ROF bonus not mattering with Claymore. When reload canceling, +15 ROF effectively gives you +6.6% DPS boost that's multiplicative with everything. +15% damage bonus in its place would be actually worse on a GI. In other words, it's better than shotgun gear.

6.6% hm,
so with the aiu pulling 6798 damage per shot, with melee synergy, and 6232 without
and the Gi pulling 5735

the relative increase in dps is equal to a per shot bonus equating to 6113.5 damage per shot for the GI, (5738*1.066)
even with the rof boost, and if the aiu isn't pulling the melee bonus the aiu still has a higher theoretical damage output,

I realize that the GI has a very significant accuracy advantage, but accuracy only effects dps if you miss, which is in part a skill based human factor, and so I've ignored it because if the aiu hits every shot it does not matter how good the GI's accuracy boost is,

I also chose shotgun amp because it is the max bonus, and if you are dropping your dps for some frivolous vision bonus than you can't say the other is better with the amp

only the aiu has the CAPACITY, to out dps the gi with the claymore, not that it always will, that is the point I'm trying to make, not that the aiu is truly better

Kislitsin wrote...
@MGW7 man, srsly?

Also lol at tankiness as a factor of deeps. Only two guns when durability really matters (at least for me) are ppr and brophoon, accidentaly those are the best guns...

I'm not sure if I'm serious anymore,
anyways, you saying tankiness means nothing is no different than me saying accuracy means nothing, if you need to hide to regen your shields you aren't dealing damage, if the gi misses then his accuracy bonus amounts to nothing,

tankiness is a human factor, accuracy is a human factor, neither effect theoretical dps, so neither matter to my argument

Get your **** out of here. This is about the Drell and the GI.

[MGW7]

me0120 wrote...

Get your **** out of here. This is about the Drell and the GI.

I brought up that the drell can't beat the gi, the aiu can only beat him with two weapons, people wanted to argue,

I don't even know anymore

[dudemacha]

DPS point of view, GI...all things considered DAI IMO

[FasterThanFTL]

Nik6454 wrote...

DPS point of view, GI...all things considered DAI IMO

This.