123 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

Context is not hard to understand. A normal person who has played the games and not absorbed all the crazy from the BSN will say and understand what is meant by sentences like:

"How could an Elf romance a Qunari? The Elf would die!"

"Bob ran away and became Qunari"

"I'm so excited to play Qunari, that body paint is badass!"

But then someone will shuffle in, pushing their glasses up their nose and go "ahem, I think you mean 'Kossith' in your first and third example" and create unwanted confusion.

[CybAnt1]

And if the person just says, ... (or asks?)

"I heard we are playing Qunari this time".

That's it.

Which did they mean?

And yes, we'll have another argument break out about whether the race-sans-religion or the religion was meant. (Those "in the know" know the former, others could think the latter.)

We're not only in a drought of information, different people have differential awareness of what information is already present, or may not have been present when a developer clarified something.

If this thread doesn't stay 'lively,' it will eventually sink to page 25, and somebody showing up later might never have seen it and its chart.

And so that thread will appear again, and again. A stickied FAQ could help stop it, but it seems they're not going to do that for a while.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 02 février 2014 - 08:55 .

[Mistic]

Thanks, that's a very useful chart, very clear. I'm sure it won't stop "Qunari or Kossith?" threads, but still, nice.

[Angarma]

CybAnt1 wrote...

And if the person just says, ... (or asks?)

"I heard we are playing Qunari this time".

That's it.

Which did they mean?

And yes, we'll have another argument break out about whether the race-sans-religion or the religion was meant. (Those "in the know" know the former, others could think the latter.)

We're not only in a drought of information, different people have differential awareness of what information is already present, or may not have been present when a developer clarified something.

If this thread doesn't stay 'lively,' it will eventually sink to page 25, and somebody showing up later might never have seen it and its chart.

And so that thread will appear again, and again. A stickied FAQ could help stop it, but it seems they're not going to do that for a while.

Exactly! This is what I'm talking about.
You go Master CybAnt1!

[Nefla]

CybAnt1 wrote...

And if the person just says, ... (or asks?)

"I heard we are playing Qunari this time".

That's it.

Which did they mean?

And yes, we'll have another argument break out about whether the race-sans-religion or the religion was meant. (Those "in the know" know the former, others could think the latter.)

We're not only in a drought of information, different people have differential awareness of what information is already present, or may not have been present when a developer clarified something.

If this thread doesn't stay 'lively,' it will eventually sink to page 25, and somebody showing up later might never have seen it and its chart.

And so that thread will appear again, and again. A stickied FAQ could help stop it, but it seems they're not going to do that for a while.

They obviously mean the race. You're clearly not stupid, I don't know on whose behalf you're arguing when you say that's confusing. Putting 2 and 2 together we know:

1)DA has always been about choice and character building and we're not going to be forced into a religion or mindset ever. Anyone who hasn't played a DA game before wouldn't know what a Qunari was in any sense of the word anyway.
2)The devs have SAID one of the playable races is Qunari
3)The vast majority of Qunari we have seen are also Qunari by race. We have seen countless Qunari and Tal'Vashoth soldiers in DA2 as well as the Arishok, Maras, and Sten, Tal'Vashoth mercenaries in DA:O as well as that merchant in Awakening. The only converts we saw were the two elves who killed a guard and converted to avoid punishment, and Talis. Why would someone use the common word with no qualifiers as a first choice to describe the outliers in a group?

How is saying "elf qunari" or "qunari convert" or using common sense to read context MORE confusing than using an obscure term not ever found in the games, not known by 99% of players, and not even used correctly? Calling Qunari "Kossith" is as accurate as calling white people "colonists" Kossith isn't a racial term and we don't even know if that society included other races. Also the lack of a term for their race is a part of Qunari culture. They value skill and ability, their labels are based on skill and ability and their place in society, NOT physical characteristics. It was intentional and that mindset is part of what makes them interesting. It's a slightly more complex concept than elves/dwarves/humans but it's not hard to understand. You can't tell me that when playing DA2 you're confused whenever the Viscount tells you to go fix some problem with the Qunari? Do you think to yourself "does he mean those two elf converts, or the hoard of racial Qunari?" You may not like it for whatever reason, but I highly doubt your mind explodes whenever someone types the word Qunari.

[Sentinel358]

^have to agree completely

[Battlebloodmage]

Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. If the writers never introduce the word "kossith", I'm 90% sure that most people wouldn't be "confused" by Qunari.

[CybAnt1]

They obviously mean the race. You're clearly not stupid, I don't know on whose behalf you're arguing 

People who don't know what you and I know (by that, I mean, what has been announced about the game, or their deep knowledge of lore, qunlat, charts, and codices, or have your keen prescience of developer intent.)  :innocent:

BTW, I understand your campaign against the k-word. I really do. It's why I've switched to "horny-folk". 

Hope it makes everybody happy. :innocent:

It is really fun playing the horny-folk, I love their tattoos. 

Yeah, that's it. I'm sticking with it. It has a nice ring to it. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 03 février 2014 - 01:13 .

[Battlebloodmage]

CybAnt1 wrote...

They obviously mean the race. You're clearly not stupid, I don't know on whose behalf you're arguing 

People who don't know what you and I know (by that, I mean, what has been announced about the game, or their deep knowledge of lore, qunlat, charts, and codices, or have your keen prescience of developer intent.)  :innocent:

BTW, I understand your campaign against the k-word. I really do. It's why I've switched to "horny-folk". 

Hope it makes everybody happy. :innocent:

It is really fun playing the horny-folk, I love their tattoos. 

Yeah, that's it. I'm sticking with it. It has a nice ring to it. 

Horny-folks could also refer to Isabela or Zevran. How do we know which one you're referring to? 

[CybAnt1]

Isabela and Zevran are not a race, although it would be interesting to see how their children would turn out. 

That is just me joking. I'll stick to small q or ox-men. Those who know why a small q means something different than a Big Q will know. And the others, well, that's what the stick of get with the program is for. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 03 février 2014 - 01:45 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Good chart but this is never going to end.

I'm on the anti kossith side tbh. People are saying not having a term for just the race will be confusing to people who don't know anything about the lore but wouldn't us using Kossith be just as confusing to people?

The devs are not going to start using Kossith or any other term, they made that clear and Kossith has never been used in Game before and probably never will be. As was just said, it's part of their culture not to have a term and it makes no sense to have one in game so there won't be one.

So a bunch of players start the game wanting to play as Kossith but the race is labelled Qunari, they get called a Qunari by everyone in the game and nobody ever uses Kossith. They will be just as confused about the racial/religion thing as they would have been if they had never heard Kossith before. In fact they will be more confused because they will wonder where the term Kossith came from.

So people will always be confused about this to some extent and I think that is fine tbh. It's part of the fun but the only way the Qunari vs Kossith thing can actually end is if we just forget Kossith.

[CybAnt1]

I know the Kirby-Gaider campaign to get rid of it. I even get peoples' feelings about it.

I just find it weird to say the word doesn't exist when it's RIGHT F'N THERE ON THE WIKI. People want to know what it means? 2 seconds of googling and boom. Whoop, there it is. Let me put it in bold. 

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Kossith

Kossith is the name of the humanoid horned race[1] that predates the Qun. It is unknown if the term refers to the one specific race or a group of races,[2] as little is known about the kossith. Most of the kossith converted to the teachings of the Qun sometime before 6:30 Storm and are since then known as Qunari. Prior to that, they prayed to animist gods, however when Qun became law the temples that kossith built to honor their gods were destroyed and the priests were reeducated or driven into exile.

[end]

It is not a term for a culture, it is a term for a biological race: the big dudes with horns. So sayeth the Wiki. 

The race existed before the Qun & Koslun. They were known as something before they embraced it. I get why they want the term out of existence. Everybody else, I'm not so sure. 

You want people to forget the word and make it go away, delete the Wiki. Yes, I see the usage correction that has now been posted below the definition. But it does not negate the definition.

Otherwise, it won't go away - even if I agree with you to personally stop using it. That is my point, yes. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 03 février 2014 - 02:46 .

[HK-90210]

CybAnt1 wrote...
Anyway, Judaism is a religion, and many people might call those of the ethnicity Jew even if they are atheists or Pastafarians by religion. However, other terms exist, as I just said: for example, Hebrew or Israelite.

Well, Hebrew is refering to language, rather than ethnicity. So while it isn't a confusing term for most to use in reference to Jewish people, it is thechnically an incorrect term, especially if they don't speak Hebrew.

As to Isrealite, I tend to side with it being a pretty archaic term, iven if it is still in use today. Most people know it, but they won't use it in reference to Jewish peple, mostly because the of the point you made in your post: Isreal is a country, and Isrealite could be confused with talking about people from Isreal who are not necesarily descended from the tribes of Isreal.

And Levite, as you mentioned, is a pretty specialized term. It is term specifically refering to people descended from a specific tribe of Isreal. Something used to distinguish people winthin the jewish ethnicity from one another.

But the fact remains that the average person is going to refer to Jewish people as, well, Jewish. Ther are other terms, but the just aren't used as often.

Now I don't care too much one way or another. Kossith, Qunari, qunari, kossith, makes no difference to me, really. But the Jewish explaination put it in a way that I could understand why the devs considered Kossith an antiquated, unused and unknown term by most Thedesians, and the use of it on the forums 'incorrect'. Because I have met Jewish people who truly felt that 'Hebrew' was an inncorect term to refer to their culture/ethnicity.

And I met others who didn't really care one way or another. Go figure.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 03 février 2014 - 04:23 .

[TurretSyndrome]

The general public in the game have many things they overall accept, some of which are in ignorance and are incorrect. Kinda like the two gossip guys in Lothering in DA:O who kept saying outlandish things like how the mages should all be killed because they were consorting with demons, or how the Grey Wardens were working with darkspawn and killed King Cailan.

After hearing them a couple of times, I thought to myself "these are the 'innocents' I'm trying to save?". But the point is, the general public in the game may accept things like calling every horned guy a qunari, even though that is technically incorrect. Not only that, but I have no doubt that they will also ignore any attempts made by the more knowledgeable or by the horned folk in the future. Kind of like how Americans call themselves americans even though that is not exactly true.

While I don't have a problem doing the same as those NPCs, I don't feel obliged to do so since I'm outside the game world and have more access to knowledge about it than any of them.

The reason I find the word qunari to be unfit to be used as an identifier to the actual race is because I see two facts first and foremost. The fact that the qunari themselves will not allow anyone else being referred to as qunari(as we saw in DA 2), unless that person specifically follows the qun, and the fact that the Tal-Vashoth carry the exact same stance. The only reason either of these two will allow someone to call them both as qunari is because they are just tired of correcting them.

So what I'm saying is, I don't care if 'qunari' has Gaider's seal of approval to be used as a racial name. The race itself denies such use. It doesn't matter if Kossith will exist in the game or any future ones. The word did refer to the race once, and can be again, maybe not by people in-game, but by the players outside.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 03 février 2014 - 05:29 .

[Angarma]

Well, I feel this is inexplicably evil to awaken such a forgotten horror, but alas, I do what I must.
After all, it appears people *need* a base on which to expunge their inner lore monkey, unfortunately.

CybAnt1 wrote...

They obviously mean the race. You're clearly not stupid, I don't know on whose behalf you're arguing 

People who don't know what you and I know (by that, I mean, what has been announced about the game, or their deep knowledge of lore, qunlat, charts, and codices, or have your keen prescience of developer intent.)  :innocent:

BTW, I understand your campaign against the k-word. I really do. It's why I've switched to "horny-folk". 

Hope it makes everybody happy. :innocent:

It is really fun playing the horny-folk, I love their tattoos. 

Yeah, that's it. I'm sticking with it. It has a nice ring to it.

Already raising the white flag, CybAnt1? Aw, you had so much potential..

But you just had to go and let those darn munchkins pressure cook you like that.
You should of stood your ground, got mad, even throwed lemons at them!

https://i.chzbgr.com...1200/h8EB5DF94/

TurretSyndrome wrote...

The general public in the game
have many things they overall accept, some of which are in ignorance and
are incorrect. Kinda like the two gossip guys in Lothering in DA:O who
kept saying outlandish things like how the mages should all be killed
because they were consorting with demons, or how the Grey Wardens were
working with darkspawn and killed King Cailan.

After hearing
them a couple of times, I thought to myself "these are the 'innocents'
I'm trying to save?". But the point is, the general public in the game
may accept things like calling every horned guy a qunari, even though
that is technically incorrect. Not only that, but I have no doubt that
they will also ignore any attempts made by the more knowledgeable or by
the horned folk in the future. Kind of like how Americans call
themselves americans even though that is not exactly true.

While I
don't have a problem doing the same as those NPCs, I don't feel obliged
to do so since I'm outside the game world and have more access to
knowledge about it than any of them.

The reason I find the word
qunari to be unfit to be used as an identifier to the actual race is
because I see two facts first and foremost. The fact that the qunari
themselves will not allow anyone else being referred to as qunari(as we
saw in DA 2), unless that person specifically follows the qun, and the
fact that the Tal-Vashoth carry the exact same stance. The only reason
either of these two will allow someone to call them both as qunari is
because they are just tired of correcting them.

So what I'm
saying is, I don't care if 'qunari' has Gaider's seal of approval to be
used as a racial name. The race itself denies such use. It doesn't
matter if Kossith will exist in the game or any future ones. The word
did refer to the race once, and can be again, maybe not by people
in-game, but by the players outside.

Indeed, I too agree (mostly) with this.
You make half decent thoughts, Turret.

Modifié par Dodok, 04 février 2014 - 01:37 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Dodok wrote...

Indeed, I too agree (mostly) with this.
You make half decent thoughts, Turret.

Explain yourself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know given how much it gets talked about and argued over the forums about the terminology I almost suspect they might have an npc go over it in game.

[Hellion Rex]

I swear...every time I see one of these threads, I want to bang my head against the wall.

[Angarma]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Dodok wrote...

Indeed, I too agree (mostly) with this.
You make half decent thoughts, Turret.

Explain yourself.

There's really nothing to explain.
Your post was similar to my own view and what I assume is still, CybAnt1's.
So I just thought I'd humbly agree.

(If you're pondering about the 'half decent' phrase, that's just a figure of speech herein.
Also, the addition of 'mostly' was just a blurb after misreading it, which I lapsed to correct).

Modifié par Dodok, 04 février 2014 - 02:33 .

[CybAnt1]

Well, Hebrew is refering to language, rather than ethnicity. 

I hope you have surely noticed the two things have a relationship. (I am using "ethnicity" and "nationality" interchangeably, here.) 

Spanish people (often) speak Spanish.
French people ("") speak French.
German people ("") speak German. 
Hebrew refers to both an ethnicity AND a language. ("Semite" refers to a cluster of ethnic groups, and a language subfamily.)

Though not, per se, a religion. 

And Levite, as you mentioned, is a pretty specialized term. It is term specifically refering to people descended from a specific tribe of Isreal. Something used to distinguish people winthin the jewish ethnicity from one another.

Well ... since everybody's correcting everybody on technicalities, let me just point out that a Levite cannot be (by definition) descended from the Tribe of Judah, and is therefore not a "Jew," even if some people might call him that. 

But the fact remains that the average person is going to refer to Jewish people as, well, Jewish. Ther are other terms, but the just aren't used as often.

I find it frustrating people are uninterested in semantic variety when it is available. 

I constantly see people grimace when I tell them "Noam Chomsky is an atheist Jew". Well, he is both atheist and Jewish ... and .... well, now see, wouldn't it be useful if there was another word there? 

Because I have met Jewish people who truly felt that 'Hebrew' was an inncorect term to refer to their culture/ethnicity.

And I met others who didn't really care one way or another. Go figure.

Yeah, it's odd to see people leap to declare a term offensive (or just inaccurate) when some of the group in question are not offended. 

Weirder still, to have this knee jerk reflex for imaginary beings. 

[CybAnt1]

Already raising the white flag, CybAnt1? Aw, you had so much potential..

When it comes to some battles, you may notice I stand my ground fiercely. Perhaps to the point of high annoyance to those of the opposing faction. Sort of like mage vs. templar.

On certain game features, I will fight to the (virtual) death, I mean, you can't force me to like what I hate, you can't stop me from describing what I dislike about it, nor asking to change it. BTW, to me it's just not a matter of "I hate it" but I attempt to suggest why all rational-thinking people SHOULD. :innocent:

I will never love the wheel+paraphrase = roll the dice for what my character will say & do next. I want to know my words MORE than I want to know my tone, like most human beings tasked with communication. And I will keep complaining about it until I know, completely, what solution they have made FOR THAT CRAP. I think I have made that painfully clear. 

My problem's not a voiced protagonist, it isn't even really the wheel's presence per se, nor that I am constantly bathed in cutesy in-game emoticons/tone indicators. It's just that very issue; I feel disconnected from Hawke because I can only tell him to be angry, not know what he's going to do once he becomes angry. 

This is just an argument over a word. Truth is, I would have stayed out of this 'debate' were there not some ridiculous dogmatic stances being taken, which just seem to me, to be silly and stupid. In the end, I admit, there are things I care about far more - like game features. I suspect the battles on those terms will reach full escalation when we know exactly what they're going to do. I also think that's why they will be slow to roll out the details. 

But I have my powder dry. Believe me. 

I calls 'em as I see 'em, that's just how I roll. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 février 2014 - 03:07 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Dodok wrote...
There's really nothing to explain. 
Your post was similar to my own view and what I assume is still, CybAnt1's.
So I just thought I'd humbly agree.

(If you're pondering about the 'half decent' phrase, that's just a figure of speech herein.
Also, the addition of 'mostly' was just a blurb after misreading it, which I lapsed to correct).

I see. Well, alright then. I just mistook your tone there.

CybAnt1 wrote...

Truth is, I would have stayed out of this 'debate' were there not some ridiculous dogmatic stances being taken, which just seem to me, to be silly and stupid. In the end, 

Indeed. I did not intend to comment in this thread until I saw someone call out on another, how using the word, regardless of whether it is in-game or out, is "just wrong". 

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 04 février 2014 - 03:50 .

[Nefla]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know given how much it gets talked about and argued over the forums about the terminology I almost suspect they might have an npc go over it in game.

They already explained it in a way a child would understand in DA2, but I think it would be cool to see an Easter egg referencing some of these silly debates we crazed, information starved fans have in these long months of downtime

[Sentinel358]

Nefla wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know given how much it gets talked about and argued over the forums about the terminology I almost suspect they might have an npc go over it in game.

They already explained it in a way a child would understand in DA2, but I think it would be cool to see an Easter egg referencing some of these silly debates we crazed, information starved fans have in these long months of downtime

I can definitely see you going to a pub and over hearing that argument like in Awakening with the two guys who debated "Andraste vs Archdemon" I can easily see a "Kossith vs Qunari" debate that id love to listen to.

Maybe even have the two as reoccuring characters that reference the most common debates on here

Modifié par Sentinel358, 04 février 2014 - 07:07 .

[Pallid]

Thanks OP, this is very useful.