123 réponses à ce sujet

[Thetford]

Every time I have heard the term "Kossith" by a member of staff at Bioware, they often refer to it as an antiquated term like "Occident" and "Orient". These two words refer to the West and East respectively, (well, mostly just Europe and Asia respectively), now while "Occident" is largely fallen out of use, "Orient" is still used to varying degrees, though while the word covers most of the Asian continent, (hence why the Orient Express ends in Istanbul not Beijing), the colloquial meaning has narrowed depending on who uses it (for example, in Britain, the word tends to be used to refer to those from the Far East, to differentiate those from the India and Pakistan region, who tend to be called Asian). But in essence, the word at the end of the day, is just seen as the Eurocentric view of the world (as are the words "Europe" and "Asia" as well, which are argued are continents based more on culture than on science, and argue for "Eurasia" to be used instead). Now I've lost my point and what I was saying ... carry on.

EDIT: In short, Thedas needs a Thedacentric word similar to Kossith, then I think things may become a tad more settled.

Modifié par Thetford, 05 février 2014 - 01:09 .

[CybAnt1]

Be careful. Put too much real world stuff (esp. politics) into this discussion, and you get thread lock.

Oh, and since another thread on this topic got locked, I will have to answer another point in another thread.

Do I like to argue? Sometimes. I gotta say my urge strengthens when people behave dogmatically.

Did I mention I hate unnecessary word taboos? **** all that. Oh look, asterisks. The thing that's really starting to bug me is a word for some Jewish people, Ashkenasim (had to alter one consonant to avoid the filter device here) is getting asterisked in the middle for containing a certain four letter string.

Silly, if you ask me.

That's it. Carry on.

[Sylvius the Mad]

CybAnt1 wrote...

It is not a term for a culture, it is a term for a biological race: the big dudes with horns. So sayeth the Wiki.

In what way is the wiki infallible?

[Fast Jimmy]

To counter the Jewish comment, there are about a dozen different words/terms/phrases that can be used to distinguish someone from a citizen of the nation of Israelite, a genetic/ethnicity member of the tribe of Judah and a member of the Hebrew faith. Yet there is no way to say the difference between the race qunari and a Qunari believer, aside capitalization rules (which fans have also invented/adopted via forum discussions).

To address the "this is pendantic, elitist talk that forumers can use to sound superior," it IS a term no one outside the dedicated fanbase would use, yes.

So is "dialogue wheel paraphrases" or "Frostbite game engine" or "Venatori" or countless other terms only more serious fans of either the game series or game development process would know. Yet no one flies off their lid when someone uses them. That the devs seek to malign those who use it with sarcasm and passive aggressive social networking attempts without acknowledging that there might actually be a communication need (let alone trying to provide an alternative/solution for it) is what irks me more than anything. I could honestly give zero hoots about the term in and of itself; it is more the manner with which it is treated that works as a microcosm for how Bioware reacts to many different problems, perceived and real.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 février 2014 - 08:23 .

[Hellion Rex]

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

I enjoyed reading that. 

[Fast Jimmy]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

I enjoyed reading that. 

I didn't. Because it honestly still solves nothing. 

When dealing with fictional lore, of any medium, there is something called "Word of God." This is a bit of information/clarification that comes from the creator(s) of the fiction, usually outside the more standard means of communicating the story. 

It is called Word of God because the creatorss are, for all intents and purposes, gods of the worlds they create. They create life, they can destroy history, they can will anything in or out of existence. 

This makes them the ultimate authority. In their own worlds, for sure. But also to their own fanbases.

If David Gaider, Lead Writer and lore god of the Dragon Age universe says, in as many words, "the word Kossith is only used by people who are too idiotic to pick up on context or are too much of a tool to just let something slide. Sure, you can use Kossith if you want and I won't stop you, but you'll be one of these douche bags," then all of his followers (of which the BSN is in no short supply) are basically given a free pass to be just as derisive to anyone who uses the term, even if Gaider has "sanctioned" it via that Tumblr post. 

I realize that is a personal blog he writes on his own time, but if the goal was to have that be "go to" statement to be linked whenever the discussion comes up, it could have used less editorialization that is only going to be ammo for people to use against each other for months or years to come. Regardless of Gaider saying "don't be anal" to people who don't like the word Kossith, it still shows Gaider's own views on the word pretty clearly, which is carte blanche for every other fan to have that same exact opinion and derisive manner in the future. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 février 2014 - 08:58 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I didn't. Because it honestly still solves nothing. 

When dealing with fictional lore, of any medium, there is something called "Word of God." This is a bit of information/clarification that comes from the creator(s) of the fiction, usually outside the more standard means of communicating the story. 

It is called Word of God because the creatorss are, for all intents and purposes, gods of the worlds they create. They create life, they can destroy history, they can will anything in or out of existence. 

This makes them the ultimate authority. In their own worlds, for sure. But also to their own fanbases.

If David Gaider, Lead Writer and lore god of the Dragon Age universe say, in as many words, "the word Kossith is only used by people who are too idiotic to pick up on context or are too much of a tool to just let something slide. Sure, you can use Kossith if you want and I won't stop you, but you'll be one of these douche bags," then all of his followers (of which the BSN is in no short supply, are basically given a free pass to be just as derisive to anyone who uses the term, even if Gaider has "sanctioned" it via that Tumblr post. 

I realize that is a personal blog he writes on his own time, but if the goal was to have that be "go to" statement to be linked whenever the discussion comes up, it could have used less editorialization that is going to be ammo for people to use against each other for months or years to come. Regardless of Gaider saying "don't be anal" to people who don't like the word Kossith, it still shows Gaider's own views on the word pretty clearly, which is carte Blanche for every other fan to have that same exact opinion and derisive manner in the future.

I think you're missing the point.  There isn't a definitive term for the thing people are trying ti describe.  The writers designed the world like that on purpose to make the Qunari (as a culture) more credible.  He's addressing demands for more precise words, a demand he is unwilling to meet because there's no benefit to the writing process to create those words.  I would argue there might even be a detriment.  The imprecision of terms makes the alien nature of the Qunari something with which the writers need to contend on a daily basis.  They can't lapse into a convenient taxonomic shorthand, because there isn't one.

Moreover, David's only complaint there was about people being anal about terminology, not about the terminology being misused.

Without actually creating a more precise taxonomy, what would you have him say?

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 février 2014 - 08:54 .

[daveliam]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If David Gaider, Lead Writer and lore god of the Dragon Age universe says, in as many words, "the word Kossith is only used by people who are too idiotic to pick up on context or are too much of a tool to just let something slide. Sure, you can use Kossith if you want and I won't stop you, but you'll be one of these douche bags," then all of his followers (of which the BSN is in no short supply) are basically given a free pass to be just as derisive to anyone who uses the term, even if Gaider has "sanctioned" it via that Tumblr post. 

Hmmm....interesting because I didn't read it that way at all.  I read it as (roughly):  "The writers will qunari when referring to the race and religion.  The term is vague, but that's how we designed it and you can use context clues to figure out our intention if you think it's vague in a particular instance.  Fans are free to use kossith or qunari, because it's not really important what term you want to use.  Both sides of the argument are wrong because neither term is wrong.  However, for purposes of the story, the race is called qunari."

No where in that article did I get derision for people who use kossith.  I only got frustration at people from either end of the argument who insist that their way is the "right way". 

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I didn't. Because it honestly still solves nothing. 

When dealing with fictional lore, of any medium, there is something called "Word of God." This is a bit of information/clarification that comes from the creator(s) of the fiction, usually outside the more standard means of communicating the story. 

It is called Word of God because the creatorss are, for all intents and purposes, gods of the worlds they create. They create life, they can destroy history, they can will anything in or out of existence. 

This makes them the ultimate authority. In their own worlds, for sure. But also to their own fanbases.

If David Gaider, Lead Writer and lore god of the Dragon Age universe say, in as many words, "the word Kossith is only used by people who are too idiotic to pick up on context or are too much of a tool to just let something slide. Sure, you can use Kossith if you want and I won't stop you, but you'll be one of these douche bags," then all of his followers (of which the BSN is in no short supply, are basically given a free pass to be just as derisive to anyone who uses the term, even if Gaider has "sanctioned" it via that Tumblr post. 

I realize that is a personal blog he writes on his own time, but if the goal was to have that be "go to" statement to be linked whenever the discussion comes up, it could have used less editorialization that is going to be ammo for people to use against each other for months or years to come. Regardless of Gaider saying "don't be anal" to people who don't like the word Kossith, it still shows Gaider's own views on the word pretty clearly, which is carte Blanche for every other fan to have that same exact opinion and derisive manner in the future.

I think you're missing the point.  There isn't a definitive term for the thing people are trying ti describe.  The writers designed the world like that on purpose to make the Qunari (as a culture) more credible.  He's addressing demands for more precise words, a demand he is unwilling to meet because there's no benefit to the writing process to create those words.  I would argue there might even be a detriment.  The imprecision of terms makes the alien nature of the Qunari something with which the writers need to contend on a daily basis.  They can't lapse into a convenient taxonomic shorthand, because there isn't one.

Moreover, David's only complaint there was about people being anal about terminology, not about the terminology being misused.

Without actually creating a more precise taxonomy, what would you have him say?

Yet the story doesn't only exist with Qunari. It is mixed with humans, dwarves and elves, all of whom seem to share a roughly similar overall psychological makeup, let alone language structure. To say that these three races, which aren't at all alien or foreign, wouldn't have problems (and, hence, try and solve those problems by inventing their own language to differentiate) is a bit naive. If Bob and John the Dalish said:

John: "Oh yeah, Sam left the clan and went and became a Qunari."
Bob: "What? Sam grew horns and became two feet taller?"
John: "No, he joined the Qunari relgion."
Bob:"Oh, so he didn't become the race of... hey, what the heck do we call the Qunari when we aren't talking about the religion?"
John: "...ox men?"
Bob: "Works for me."

And racial slurs, that are also entirely funcitonal for discussion, are born. You're welcome, internet.


I would have prefered him to say "While Kossith is not an accurate term and one we will not be using, we understand it is useful in some discussions, so fans can feel free to use it." End of sentence. Not "people are so dense sometimes, that they have to turn everything into an argument that is so annoying... so if you are one of those countless people who want to annoy me on a regular basis, fine... go ahead and have your silly word." Same overall message "Kossith is not an approved word but not a 'banned' word" but one has the message without the undertone of derision that still, effectively, makes using the word stigmatized.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 février 2014 - 09:11 .

[Fast Jimmy]

daveliam wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

If David Gaider, Lead Writer and lore god of the Dragon Age universe says, in as many words, "the word Kossith is only used by people who are too idiotic to pick up on context or are too much of a tool to just let something slide. Sure, you can use Kossith if you want and I won't stop you, but you'll be one of these douche bags," then all of his followers (of which the BSN is in no short supply) are basically given a free pass to be just as derisive to anyone who uses the term, even if Gaider has "sanctioned" it via that Tumblr post. 

Hmmm....interesting because I didn't read it that way at all.  I read it as (roughly):  "The writers will qunari when referring to the race and religion.  The term is vague, but that's how we designed it and you can use context clues to figure out our intention if you think it's vague in a particular instance.  Fans are free to use kossith or qunari, because it's not really important what term you want to use.  Both sides of the argument are wrong because neither term is wrong.  However, for purposes of the story, the race is called qunari."

No where in that article did I get derision for people who use kossith.  I only got frustration at people from either end of the argument who insist that their way is the "right way". 

I was likely having my reading of it colored by similar Twitter and BSN comments made by Gaider last night before he wrote this piece. Regardless, the frustration, in and of itself, implies that people are doing something wrong. 

Just like it has become a running joke that adding a toggle to everything is the development team's worst nightmare, just like the word Kossith is a similarly well-known point.  If Gaider wanted to allevaite that, then it would have behooved him to not tie his own frustration into the response. It just implies that anyone who perpetuates the action of using Kossith, just like anyone who starts a fight calling someone out on it, are tiresome.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet the story doesn't only exist with Qunari. It is mixed with humans, dwarves and elves, all of whom seem to share a roughly similar overall psychological makeup, let alone language structure. To say that these three races, which aren't at all alien or foreign, wouldn't have problems (and, hence, try and solve those problems by inventing their own language to differentiate) is a bit naive. If Bob and John the Dalish said:

John: "Oh yeah, Sam left the clan and went and became a Qunari."
Bob: "What? Sam grew horns and became two feet taller?"
John: "No, he joined the Qunari relgion."
Bob:"Oh, so he didn't become the race of... hey, what the heck do we call the Qunari when we aren't talking about the religion?"
John: "...ox men?"
Bob: "Works for me."

And racial slurs, that are also entirely funcitonal for discussion, are born. You're welcome, internet.

But would non-Qunari use the word Qunari to describe the viddathari?  I doubt it.  I think they'd say that Sam left to go live with the Qunari or to join the Qunari, not become one.

There's an important disconnect here.  The way the Qunari use the words is different from the way non-Qunari use words.  I think you've invented a problem by having characters use words both ways, when they shouldn't be doing that.

The non-Qunari use the word to describe the race.  The Qunari use the word to describe the religion.

...one has the message without the undertone of derision that still, effectively, makes using the word stigmatized.

I don't see the undertone, but then I rarely do.

[daveliam]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
It just implies that anyone who perpetuates the action of using Kossith, just like anyone who starts a fight calling someone out on it, are tiresome.

Perhaps I'm missing the context because I didn't read any of his other posts or tweets last night, but I didn't see anywhere in that article where he called people using kossith to be tiresome.  Only people who use kossith and then either correct others when they use qunari for the same purpose or who act exasperated when someone doesn't understand what they mean when they use that term. 

I really do think that you are letting other things color your interpretation of this post.  I personally don't understand why people feel the need to use the word kossith, because it's clear to me, but based on that post, I understand that his "official" stance is that both terms are perfectly fine to use.  That's how I read it.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

John: "Oh yeah, Sam left the clan and went and became a Qunari."

So this is a perfect example of context clues.  Since we have no evidence to suggest that people can change their race in Thedas, but we DO have evidence to suggest that people can change their religion in Thedas, it would stand to reason that this statement indicates that a person (probably an elf, since the word "clan" is used and we've mostly seen that word used with the Dalish) named Sam has changed his religion to Qunari and has joined their community. 

[HiroVoid]

daveliam wrote...
Perhaps I'm missing the context because I didn't read any of his other posts or tweets last night, but I didn't see anywhere in that article where he called people using kossith to be tiresome.  Only people who use kossith and then either correct others when they use qunari for the same purpose or who act exasperated when someone doesn't understand what they mean when they use that term. 

I really do think that you are letting other things color your interpretation of this post.  I personally don't understand why people feel the need to use the word kossith, because it's clear to me, but based on that post, I understand that his "official" stance is that both terms are perfectly fine to use.  That's how I read it.

Here's the page that lists his quotes from the twitter thread if you're curious.  Just ctrl+f @davidgaider

http://social.biowar...ex/14137082/616

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...

daveliam wrote...
Perhaps I'm missing the context because I didn't read any of his other posts or tweets last night, but I didn't see anywhere in that article where he called people using kossith to be tiresome.  Only people who use kossith and then either correct others when they use qunari for the same purpose or who act exasperated when someone doesn't understand what they mean when they use that term. 

I really do think that you are letting other things color your interpretation of this post.  I personally don't understand why people feel the need to use the word kossith, because it's clear to me, but based on that post, I understand that his "official" stance is that both terms are perfectly fine to use.  That's how I read it.

Here's the page that lists his quotes from the twitter thread if you're curious.  Just ctrl+f @davidgaider

http://social.biowar...ex/14137082/616

Actually, there were more that didn't get published in the Twitter thread between @upsettingshorts and David Gaider last night.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

daveliam wrote...
Perhaps I'm missing the context because I didn't read any of his other posts or tweets last night, but I didn't see anywhere in that article where he called people using kossith to be tiresome.  Only people who use kossith and then either correct others when they use qunari for the same purpose or who act exasperated when someone doesn't understand what they mean when they use that term. 

I really do think that you are letting other things color your interpretation of this post.  I personally don't understand why people feel the need to use the word kossith, because it's clear to me, but based on that post, I understand that his "official" stance is that both terms are perfectly fine to use.  That's how I read it.

Here's the page that lists his quotes from the twitter thread if you're curious.  Just ctrl+f @davidgaider

http://social.biowar...ex/14137082/616

Actually, there were more that didn't get published in the Twitter thread between @upsettingshorts and David Gaider last night.

Well, I figured that, but I never use twitter, so I figured someone more knowledgable could post it if they wanted.

[daveliam]

So here's my interpretation. Take it for what it's worth (i.e., not much):

He personally uses qunari and doesn't understand why people can't use context to understand the intended use of the word in any given situation. He also seems to not have a problem with the ambiguity of the term. I think that this might be his personal stance.

However, he's fine with people using kossith or qunari, which ever they prefer, and finds it frustrating when people of either side feel the need to correct each other. I think that this might be his "official" stance.

I think that people might be confusing the two. In the tweets, he's responding to direct criticism towards him about the use of the terms. In the tumblr post, he's responding to the general topic. Personal versus "official".

ETA:  The big takeaway:  Use either term, but don't correct people who use the other one.  In the game, however, they will use qunari and don't see the need to be any less ambiguous.

Modifié par daveliam, 05 février 2014 - 09:32 .

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...
Well, I figured that, but I never use twitter, so I figured someone more knowledgable could post it if they wanted.

It looked like it got a tad heated, so I wasn't exactly comfortable with posting it on the Twitter thread.

[Dave of Canada]

eluvianix wrote...

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

So he's repeating what's already been said except he's being passive aggressive about it.

... I don't see why this merits praise.

[Rotward]

Just call them hoofs. Short, simple, and sensible.

[CybAnt1]

In what way is the wiki infallible?

It's citing the World of Thedas, and the WoT says so. I cited the passages.

Full confession: I don't own it. But nobody has corrected my/the WIki's citations of those pages, so I assume they are there. 

Secondly, I do not care what anyone says, when there is an errata list for the WoT that says those passages are incorrect, then I will assume they are incorrect. As other people have said, there is no errata list that says those pages/passages are incorrect. And it's not like there have been no other errata/corrections to the text; there have been. 

BTW, I have no idea how infallible the WoT is. If they say tomorrow, "it means nothing," then fine. Haven't seen that statement, either. I always thought lore compendiums like that were meant to be pretty darn authoritative, but I do keep learning things every day. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 05 février 2014 - 10:36 .

[Hellion Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

So he's repeating what's already been said except he's being passive aggressive about it.

... I don't see why this merits praise.

I was being sarcastic lol. I wasn't saying the post merited any type of praise. I was just posting it here for the benefit of others. I could honestly care less about this entire debate.

[CybAnt1]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

If you didn't see what I posted in the Twitter thread: Last night, Mr. Gaider posted this tumblr piece regarding this debate. Enjoy folks!

I enjoyed reading that. 

I enjoyed reading this.

From the tumblr:

Let people use “Kossith”

End thread? 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 05 février 2014 - 10:33 .

[CybAnt1]

Rotward wrote...

Just call them hoofs. Short, simple, and sensible.

A lot of us are OK with ox-men and small-q qunari. Only problem is you have to be on the forums or have read a forum post to know what switching from Capital Q to small q means. 

I like horny-folk, but honestly, that double entendre might be off-putting. 

P.S. what we're not OK with is this doctrine "don't use a racial identifier ON THE FORUMS that doesn't specify culture/ethos/religion" because "nobody on Thedas does or will in DA:I"... I just find that daft. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

Even trying to put it in real world terms doesn't work because all jews, arabs, blacks, whites, christians, muslims, and whatever are first and foremost human beings aka ****** sapiens.