123 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

From their point of view, it's a distinction without a difference.  All those who follow the Qun are people, and all those who do not follow the Qun are not people.  They see no reason to draw lines within those groups further.  All people are equally worthy of their concern.  All non-people are equally unworthy of their concern.

[Dave of Canada]

eluvianix wrote...

I was being sarcastic lol. I wasn't saying the post merited any type of praise. I was just posting it here for the benefit of others. I could honestly care less about this entire debate.

Wasn't in reference to your post, I was brought over because I looked at the Twitter thread and people were praising Gaider as if he said anything new and cheering him on. Rather than continue the discussion there, I moved here.

[CybAnt1]

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

Just bear in mind that Thedas is pre-Darwin and even pre-Linnaeus. It's pre-science. There is no such thing as "biology". I'm not sure people will grasp our modern concept of "species". 

They will notice that qunari/ox-men are physiologically different from human beings, just as elves and dwarves are. Believe me, I DO understand the devs' point of view that since 95% of the physiologically different beings they have encountered also follow the Qun, Qunari will be used in both cases. 

Just don't understand word-taboos for the forums, which should not follow from that game-world construction.

[Treacherous J Slither]

CybAnt1 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

Just bear in mind that Thedas is pre-Darwin and even pre-Linnaeus. It's pre-science. There is no such thing as "biology". I'm not sure people will grasp our modern concept of "species". 

They will notice that qunari/ox-men are physiologically different from human beings, just as elves and dwarves are. Believe me, I DO understand the devs' point of view that since 95% of the physiologically different beings they have encountered also follow the Qun, Qunari will be used in both cases. 

Just don't understand word-taboos for the forums, which should not follow from that game-world construction.

The Qunari are not pre-science IMO. They have developed things like explosives and poison gas. These aren't primitive weapons. I'm sure that when the kossith first met humans or elves or dwarves someone asked the question "What are you?" with the desire to have or find an actual answer for why there are obvious physical differences and also there would be a desire to find out if there are other differences like in culture, religion, food etc. Curiosity is a natural reaction when faced with something new. Attempting to find things out is how the kossith learned to build anything at all. Even primitive things like spears and boats. To not be curious about your own kind as well makes no sense.

Also i'm sure that even in primitive societies the people have a name for themselves aside from the tribal name or whatever. Something as simple as "man" would end up being "men" for a group which would end up being "mankind" for all. The kossith are not men and would use a different word. So what is that word? It can't be Qunari because Tal-Vashoth aren't Qunari but yet they're still large ash skinned "men" with horns. Kossith? If so then why would this word no longer be used since a practitioner of any religion or way of life is still first and foremost a "man" or "woman". The name that they have for themselves would not go away because of some new ideology.

[CybAnt1]

Well, here's the interesting question.

From our modern biological point of view, it would seem that elves and dwarves are not, per se, a separate species from humans. Why? Because they can interbreed. Secondly, the offspring are either human or half-dwarf, in both cases, respectively. So the elves have extremely recessive genes, and the dwarves mostly recessive genes.

That raises interesting questions of where all three 'races' come from. One race may have given birth to the other two; or all three have a common ancestor.

We still don't know, like I keep saying, whether qunari/ox-men/k-folk can reproduce with humans or not. Perhaps they can or can't have sex; all we know is Sten's banter with Morrigan, which I don't think can be taken seriously. What is completely unclear, and thus not established even in "lore sources" like the WoT, is whether humans and ox-men can produce a child.

I suspect the Qunari Society of the Qun would not breed Human and Ox-Man Qunari together (they're very functional in their attitudes toward reproduction and would not seem to want to experiment). But a Vashoth qunari/exile ... might pursue a human inter-race relationship.

I suspect we will be finding out. Maybe not in this game, but maybe in another one, soon.

[Angarma]

JSlither wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

Just bear in mind that Thedas is pre-Darwin and even pre-Linnaeus. It's pre-science. There is no such thing as "biology". I'm not sure people will grasp our modern concept of "species". 

They will notice that qunari/ox-men are physiologically different from human beings, just as elves and dwarves are. Believe me, I DO understand the devs' point of view that since 95% of the physiologically different beings they have encountered also follow the Qun, Qunari will be used in both cases. 

Just don't understand word-taboos for the forums, which should not follow from that game-world construction.

The Qunari are not pre-science IMO. They have developed things like
explosives and poison gas. These aren't primitive weapons. I'm sure that
when the kossith first met humans or elves or dwarves someone asked the
question "What are you?" with the desire to have or find an actual
answer for why there are obvious physical differences and also there
would be a desire to find out if there are other differences like in
culture, religion, food etc. Curiosity is a natural reaction when faced
with something new. Attempting to find things out is how the kossith
learned to build anything at all. Even primitive things like spears and
boats. To not be curious about your own kind as well makes no sense.

Also
i'm sure that even in primitive societies the people have a name for
themselves aside from the tribal name or whatever. Something as simple
as "man" would end up being "men" for a group which would end up being
"mankind" for all. The kossith are not men and would use a different
word. So what is that word? It can't be Qunari because Tal-Vashoth
aren't Qunari but yet they're still large ash skinned "men" with horns.
Kossith? If so then why would this word no longer be used since a
practitioner of any religion or way of life is still first and foremost a
"man" or "woman". The name that they have for themselves would not go
away because of some new ideology.

Oh for pity's sake, why did you just have to go and resurrect this nightmare?
Most had finally settled into a Llomerryn Accord esque, near neutrality over this topic.
But this, this'll just turn the whole subject back into a barrage of vulgar disagreement.

Hailstones, I'm ashamed I've even responded, for it'll only give this thread more potential for inane crossfire.

CybAnt1 wrote...

Well, here's the interesting question.

From
our modern biological point of view, it would seem that elves and
dwarves are not, per se, a separate species from humans. Why? Because
they can interbreed. Secondly, the offspring are either human or
half-dwarf, in both cases, respectively. So the elves have extremely
recessive genes, and the dwarves mostly recessive genes.

That
raises interesting questions of where all three 'races' come from. One
race may have given birth to the other two; or all three have a common
ancestor.

We still don't know, like I keep saying, whether
qunari/ox-men/k-folk can reproduce with humans or not. Perhaps they can
or can't have sex; all we know is Sten's banter with Morrigan, which I
don't think can be taken seriously. What is completely unclear, and thus
not established even in "lore sources" like the WoT, is whether humans
and ox-men can produce a child.

I suspect the Qunari Society of
the Qun would not breed Human and Ox-Man Qunari together (they're very
functional in their attitudes toward reproduction and would not seem to
want to experiment). But a Vashoth qunari/exile ... might pursue a human
inter-race relationship.

I suspect we will be finding out. Maybe not in this game, but maybe in another one, soon.

Damn it, CybAnt1, why did you have to indulge him?

<_<

I'd wish a moderator would just come in and lock this thread.
As much as I appreciate what Maclimes was trying to do, this subject quickly spiralled out of control.

People would just be recycling old arguments now, for the sake of their view.
When we should just learn to agree to disagree and accept that people use different words in speech.

Modifié par Dodok, 12 février 2014 - 01:59 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

From their point of view, it's a distinction without a difference.  All those who follow the Qun are people, and all those who do not follow the Qun are not people.  They see no reason to draw lines within those groups further.  All people are equally worthy of their concern.  All non-people are equally unworthy of their concern.

People and non people? Do you mean civilized and non civilized? Even uncivilized savages are human beings or men and women.

Also, a good reason to draw lines within groups is for indentification purposes. Confusion results otherwise. To wage war without attempting to know your enemy seems silly. Knowledge of the enemy can lead to victory. Ignorance of the enemy can lead to defeat.

Also, if these so called "non people" are not worthy of Qunari concern, then why are they attempting to convert the world?

[CybAnt1]

Damn it, CybAnt1, why did you have to indulge him?

<_<

Oh, I'm done with the k-word argument. Soooooo done with it. But I even have a Gaider quote to deal with it should it flare up again, and as we've seen, the Word of Gaider carries more heft around here than Power Word: Stun. 

No, what I'm still wondering about (because that remains unclear) is the mysteries of qunari-human mating. Consider it a proto-scientific interest, kind of like Avernus had in the Taint. 

[Angarma]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Damn it, CybAnt1, why did you have to indulge him?

<_<

Oh, I'm done with the k-word argument. Soooooo done with it. But I even have a Gaider quote to deal with it should it flare up again, and as we've seen, the Word of Gaider carries more heft around here than Power Word: Stun. 

No, what I'm still wondering about (because that remains unclear) is the mysteries of qunari-human mating. Consider it a proto-scientific interest, kind of like Avernus had in the Taint. 

This issue with the matter is, by posting such proto-scientific interest in *this* thread-
You give an increased potential for it to become active again and of course, thus, cause friction.
By the factor that people, I'm sure, won't all be responding to your post, but rather the thread as is.

Which is to say the Kossith vs Qunari argument, that I like to call the 'Qwerk (QK) War.'

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Dodok:

I'm not really upset about the Kossith/Qunari word thing. I'm upset that the writers came up with something to be confusing on purpose but when actually examined it simply doesn't add up. So really it's only confusing because it doesn't make sense. For example: why don't the Qunari let their women fight? Afaik in the DA world martial ability is gender irrelevant. So what's the reason? Are they all baby factories and need to be protected like krogan females? It doesn't say so anywhere in the Qun codex. So what's the reason?

They need to put more thought into the Qun and into DA lore in general IMO. Take their time and flesh everything out. Have it all make sense and come together nicely. And if they want to alter something in the future just release a "new rulebook/retcon codex" so to speak.

[CybAnt1]

JS, the g(m)ods are already angry tonight. Stop provoking them.

Leave offerings instead.

The Kirbyite Doctrine is without contradiction, and without confusion. Embrace it. Join with it. :innocent:

Modifié par CybAnt1, 12 février 2014 - 02:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I like K-folk as a noun here. That's fun.

[Nefla]

JSlither wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I don't see how a civilization that has advanced as much as the Qunari has don't have a biological name for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense.

From their point of view, it's a distinction without a difference.  All those who follow the Qun are people, and all those who do not follow the Qun are not people.  They see no reason to draw lines within those groups further.  All people are equally worthy of their concern.  All non-people are equally unworthy of their concern.

People and non people? Do you mean civilized and non civilized? Even uncivilized savages are human beings or men and women.

Also, a good reason to draw lines within groups is for indentification purposes. Confusion results otherwise. To wage war without attempting to know your enemy seems silly. Knowledge of the enemy can lead to victory. Ignorance of the enemy can lead to defeat.

Also, if these so called "non people" are not worthy of Qunari concern, then why are they attempting to convert the world?

Non Qunari are not people according to the Qun. The word for the unenlightened "bas" literally translates to "thing."

[Treacherous J Slither]

Nefla wrote...

Non Qunari are not people according to the Qun. The word for the unenlightened "bas" literally translates to "thing."

Thanks for the reply.

The Qunari calling non believers "bas" is just their jerk move way of saying non believer. A non person isn't something that can potentially become Qunari. Dogs aren't people no matter how good some of them are at imitating us. However, any human/elf/dwarf can follow the Qun to the letter if they choose to do so and are therefore not "bas" but simply non believers. The Qun is nothing but a brainwash machine and my Inquisitor isn't having it. 

[Dermain]

JSlither wrote...
The Qunari are not pre-science IMO. They have developed things like explosives and poison gas. These aren't primitive weapons. I'm sure that when the kossith first met humans or elves or dwarves someone asked the question "What are you?" with the desire to have or find an actual answer for why there are obvious physical differences and also there would be a desire to find out if there are other differences like in culture, religion, food etc. Curiosity is a natural reaction when faced with something new. 

The only problem being we know nothing about the Qunari before Koslun appeared preaching what the Qunari now practice. As such, I imagine first contact with humans would have resembled a conversation with Sten or the Arishok.

Random Human/Elf/Dwarf: What are you?
Qunari: We are Qunari.
RHED: No what are you?
Q: We are Qunari. 

JSlither wrote...
Thanks for the reply.

The Qunari calling non believers "bas" is just their jerk move way of saying non believer. A non person isn't something that can potentially become Qunari. Dogs aren't people no matter how good some of them are at imitating us. However, any human/elf/dwarf can follow the Qun to the letter if they choose to do so and are therefore not "bas" but simply non believers. The Qun is nothing but a brainwash machine and my Inquisitor isn't having it. 

Not quite. The Qunari see all "bas" as being able to eventually accept the Qun. It is not meant as an insult, but you may continue to see it that way . If person does not accept the Qun they are still "bas", but they are then subject to a substance that DOES brainwash them. The best a "bas" can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered a basalit-an, "worthy of respect"; a basalit-an is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent, but still bas regardless. The Qun is very binary/robotic in it's nature.

[Viktoria Landers]

Maclimes wrote...



There are a few other terms that float around. For example, someone who was born into the Qun but left it would be called "Vashoth" by the followers of the Qun, but prefer the term "Tal-Vashoth" for themselves. But this is minor, and would not be used by 99.9% of the population of Thedas.

Then there's "Kossith". It's an antiquated term that refers to the biological race of horned men, but it is not used in modern times. Only anthropologists and pedantic nerds used the term.

I hope this helps. If you spot any corrections, let me know.

Can I copy your picture over to Dragon Age wiki? It will help some users there as well!

[Dean_the_Young]

JSlither wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Non Qunari are not people according to the Qun. The word for the unenlightened "bas" literally translates to "thing."

Thanks for the reply.

The Qunari calling non believers "bas" is just their jerk move way of saying non believer. A non person isn't something that can potentially become Qunari. Dogs aren't people no matter how good some of them are at imitating us. However, any human/elf/dwarf can follow the Qun to the letter if they choose to do so and are therefore not "bas" but simply non believers. The Qun is nothing but a brainwash machine and my Inquisitor isn't having it. 

The Qunari philosophy is about how you live your life, not whether you are alive. A Bas, or someone who is not following the way of the Qun, is someone who is not living an existence worthy of being considered a 'life.'

We have the same sort of distinction in reality, when people talk about how living in fear/subjugation/misery isn't being alive at all in the metaphorical sense. It's an exageration on the nature of the disparity, but you could think of the Qunari viewpoint of non-believers as common viewpoints on brain-dead people on life support, or severly crippled people who survive but can't do anything. They may have a heartbeat, even thought, but many would say they aren't living anything worth calling a life. For us, it's the physical ability to interact that we often use to make the distinction. The Qunari just add a philosophical perspective as well.

For the Qunari, following the Qun is the only way of living worth calling a life. Those who don't, aren't- Bas might come around to enlightenment and start to truly live, but until then they aren't living something respectable enough to be considered a life. Hence, if they are not considered alive, they are a thing.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Myrkale wrote...

JSlither wrote...
The Qunari are not pre-science IMO. They have developed things like explosives and poison gas. These aren't primitive weapons. I'm sure that when the kossith first met humans or elves or dwarves someone asked the question "What are you?" with the desire to have or find an actual answer for why there are obvious physical differences and also there would be a desire to find out if there are other differences like in culture, religion, food etc. Curiosity is a natural reaction when faced with something new. 

The only problem being we know nothing about the Qunari before Koslun appeared preaching what the Qunari now practice. As such, I imagine first contact with humans would have resembled a conversation with Sten or the Arishok.

Random Human/Elf/Dwarf: What are you?
Qunari: We are Qunari.
RHED: No what are you?
Q: We are Qunari. 

JSlither wrote...
Thanks for the reply.

The Qunari calling non believers "bas" is just their jerk move way of saying non believer. A non person isn't something that can potentially become Qunari. Dogs aren't people no matter how good some of them are at imitating us. However, any human/elf/dwarf can follow the Qun to the letter if they choose to do so and are therefore not "bas" but simply non believers. The Qun is nothing but a brainwash machine and my Inquisitor isn't having it. 

Not quite. The Qunari see all "bas" as being able to eventually accept the Qun. It is not meant as an insult, but you may continue to see it that way . If person does not accept the Qun they are still "bas", but they are then subject to a substance that DOES brainwash them. The best a "bas" can hope for amongst the Qunari is to be considered a basalit-an, "worthy of respect"; a basalit-an is a worthy foe, and one that can be negotiated with to an extent, but still bas regardless. The Qun is very binary/robotic in it's nature.

First contact with non Kossith would be a revelation that they are not alone in the world. This would have a huge impact on any society including Qunari society. Apparently they have since come to the conclusion that it is their duty to convert the world because the world is unenlightened. They could only have found out that the world is unenlightened by gaining information from the non believers. So the Qunari must have asked plenty of questions.

Using the word "thing" to describe someone that is not of the Qun is rude and incorrect. It is simply the wrong word to use for someone that has the capacity to convert. Infidel, barbarian, savage, non believer are more accurate words. If "bas" meant "those (people) who are blind to the truth" then I would have no complaint.

[Nefla]

 The Qun thinks the only people who are people are the people who look and think like them.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

JSlither wrote...

Nefla wrote...

Non Qunari are not people according to the Qun. The word for the unenlightened "bas" literally translates to "thing."

Thanks for the reply.

The Qunari calling non believers "bas" is just their jerk move way of saying non believer. A non person isn't something that can potentially become Qunari. Dogs aren't people no matter how good some of them are at imitating us. However, any human/elf/dwarf can follow the Qun to the letter if they choose to do so and are therefore not "bas" but simply non believers. The Qun is nothing but a brainwash machine and my Inquisitor isn't having it. 

The Qunari philosophy is about how you live your life, not whether you are alive. A Bas, or someone who is not following the way of the Qun, is someone who is not living an existence worthy of being considered a 'life.'

We have the same sort of distinction in reality, when people talk about how living in fear/subjugation/misery isn't being alive at all in the metaphorical sense. It's an exageration on the nature of the disparity, but you could think of the Qunari viewpoint of non-believers as common viewpoints on brain-dead people on life support, or severly crippled people who survive but can't do anything. They may have a heartbeat, even thought, but many would say they aren't living anything worth calling a life. For us, it's the physical ability to interact that we often use to make the distinction. The Qunari just add a philosophical perspective as well.

For the Qunari, following the Qun is the only way of living worth calling a life. Those who don't, aren't- Bas might come around to enlightenment and start to truly live, but until then they aren't living something respectable enough to be considered a life. Hence, if they are not considered alive, they are a thing.

A person in a coma is simply a person in a coma. They are not a thing. From a philosophical viewpoint they can be viewed as a meatbag waiting to die but then so can every human on the planet, coma or not. At no point is the person in the coma not an actual person. If you were to take away their personhood, you'd have to take away yours as well.

"I am Qunari. All those who do not follow the Qun are "bas"." 

All those what? People or things? People is the correct word obviously. Qunari acknolwledge that non believers are people. They simply call them "bas" because they disagree with their way of life. So even though "bas" may translate into "thing", what they really mean is "non believer".

[Maclimes]

Viktoria Landers wrote...

Maclimes wrote...



There are a few other terms that float around. For example, someone who was born into the Qun but left it would be called "Vashoth" by the followers of the Qun, but prefer the term "Tal-Vashoth" for themselves. But this is minor, and would not be used by 99.9% of the population of Thedas.

Then there's "Kossith". It's an antiquated term that refers to the biological race of horned men, but it is not used in modern times. Only anthropologists and pedantic nerds used the term.

I hope this helps. If you spot any corrections, let me know.

Can I copy your picture over to Dragon Age wiki? It will help some users there as well!

Sure!

[Battlebloodmage]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

Only thing which confuses me about it is that Tallis refuses to refer to Tal-Vashoth as Qunari. Even Cassandra says that "Qunari" refers to a follower of the Qun.

Just an analogy, if you were an American patriot, would you consider an American who who abandoned their country to become a terrorist an American?