581 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

*snip*
canon? hur hur  when this little girl pops up in me4. will the forum walls scream in anguish?

I'm a Liara fan and I'd scream in horror if that little girl popped up in ME4.

But then I also cringe whenever I see fan art of Mass Effect character that is heavily pregnant or toting children. I'm not sure what the fascination is with LIs spewing out Shepard spawn.

[congokong]

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

To futher expand on my previous post.

As for reasons I prefere Liara and Samara's romance? I guess because I think from a storytelling perspective I appreciate the drama in ME2-maingame between Liara and Shepard, it is the dark second chapter so I think it suits for the hero to be at their lowest by them having seemingly lost their relationship with somebody they loved and cared for, and if you add the attempted romance with Samara, trying to move on with someone else and not have that work out either. It adds to the sense that Shepard is truly isolated and alone on some level. And having Shepard get something on with one of the vanilla ME2 romances betrays that sense of isolation that ME2 should have and thereby undermines the whole "dark second act".

I get a similar feeling when playing ME2. You know how the game keeps emphasizing how the crew needs to be free of distractions before the final mission? For my Shepard that means resolving the situation with Liara. After LotSB Shepard feels ready for the mission. Even after that there's a void in not having Liara on the crew. It just feels off for me. It's strange how you can get these feelings when you become attached to your character. Your character influences you and you influence them.

I disagree. Just like Shepard getting something going with one of the ME2-maingame romances, doing LOTSB before the suicide mission completely destroys the purpose of the Illium cameo and undermines any kind of emotion the picture scene has.

In short, if you do LOTSB before the suicide mission, then I think you are doing it wrong.

Just my opinion.

And I disagree with you. Fair enough. To me looking at the picture indicates Shepard reflecting on her promise to always come back to Liara. LotSB gives her someone to fight for. Otherwise she's reflecting on a relationship that doesn't currently exist.

Also you miss out on all the bonuses if you wait until the game's practially over to do LotSB. My Shepard wouldn't hold out until after the suicide mission to give Liara the broker intel although I still do the terminal hacking quests and Miranda's loyalty mission first.

The only quest I think should be done after the suicide mission is Arrival as it feels like an epilogue.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

To futher expand on my previous post.

As for reasons I prefere Liara and Samara's romance? I guess because I think from a storytelling perspective I appreciate the drama in ME2-maingame between Liara and Shepard, it is the dark second chapter so I think it suits for the hero to be at their lowest by them having seemingly lost their relationship with somebody they loved and cared for, and if you add the attempted romance with Samara, trying to move on with someone else and not have that work out either. It adds to the sense that Shepard is truly isolated and alone on some level. And having Shepard get something on with one of the vanilla ME2 romances betrays that sense of isolation that ME2 should have and thereby undermines the whole "dark second act".

I get a similar feeling when playing ME2. You know how the game keeps emphasizing how the crew needs to be free of distractions before the final mission? For my Shepard that means resolving the situation with Liara. After LotSB Shepard feels ready for the mission. Even after that there's a void in not having Liara on the crew. It just feels off for me. It's strange how you can get these feelings when you become attached to your character. Your character influences you and you influence them.

I disagree. Just like Shepard getting something going with one of the ME2-maingame romances, doing LOTSB before the suicide mission completely destroys the purpose of the Illium cameo and undermines any kind of emotion the picture scene has.

In short, if you do LOTSB before the suicide mission, then I think you are doing it wrong.

Just my opinion.

If you don't romance her, I think it works better before. Vasir's comment about Cerberus is a good moment for some soul searching, and deciding how friendly you want to be with them for the rest of the game. I think it coincides well around the time of Jack's loyalty mission, TIM's antics on the Collector mission, or doing Overlord around the same time.

Well, if Liara is not romanced then I will say it does not really matter when you do it, so I do somewhat agree with you. Your second part about Vasir and Cerberus is a non-issue for me since knowing ME3, saving the Collector base is the only sensible option in order to preserve any kind of justification for Cerberus' power in 3.

StreetMagic wrote...
Personally though, I think her comments on Illium (about giving your body to Cerberus) should suffice. It just kind of falls flat.. you don't get to be pissed off enough in that scene.

The Illium cameo was terribly written and had so much blatant railroading, even though I get what they are trying to go for.

[Han Shot First]

Lizardviking wrote...

In short, if you do LOTSB before the suicide mission, then I think you are doing it wrong.

Just my opinion.

I also prefer LotSB after the Suicide Mission.

As far as ME2 DLC goes I think both LotSB and Arrival make more sense if played after the Suicide Mission. Overlord and the Kasumi and Zaeed DLCs I play through at some point prior to the Suicide Mission.

[SlottsMachine]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The Illium cameo was terribly written and had so much blatant railroading, even though I get what they are trying to go for.

Yeah, I see what they're going for too, but it's disjointed. It's funny if even big Liara fans can agree on that one. Perhaps if it was good though, you guys wouldn't have gotten LotSB to make up for it.

Nah, they would have gotten LotSB anyway. Flame war begin...

[Han Shot First]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The Illium cameo was terribly written and had so much blatant railroading, even though I get what they are trying to go for.

Yeah, I see what they're going for too, but it's disjointed. It's funny if even big Liara fans can agree on that one. Perhaps if it was good though, you guys wouldn't have gotten LotSB to make up for it.

The disappointing cameo was certainly at least partially responsible for LotSB. Bioware responded to complaints about the cameos of the ME1 characters that didn't make the squad, by crafting a DLC around the most popular of the bunch. Without those complaints I have a feeling that there probably still would have been a Shadow Broker DLC, but Liara might not necessarily have been the central character.

It's a shame Arrival didn't revolve around the Virmire Survivor in a similar fashion. I thought one of the weaknesses of that DLC was the lack of involvement with your squadmates, and it would have made perfect sense to have the Virmire Survivor involved as it was an Allliance mission, rather than Cerberus. It would have also allowed for Shepard and the Virmire Survivor to work out their differences before the start of Mass Effect 3 and the Mars mission.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 février 2014 - 06:31 .

[jtav]

Actually, as best I can tell, LOTSB was blanned from the beginning--there's a file named "liara_dlc" in the base game.

[congokong]

StreetMagic wrote...

jtav wrote...

Actually, as best I can tell, LOTSB was blanned from the beginning--there's a file named "liara_dlc" in the base game.

Fair enough then. Maybe the cameo bit was just some quick "placeholder" content,while they thought of something better to do.

It was always going to happen. The video below shows unused content in ME2 known even before LotSB was released.



Bioware held off on LotSB because:
1) time constraints
2) they wanted more money (make people buy the DLC to continue the Liara romance and/or get more content)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

congokong wrote...
And I disagree with you. Fair enough. To me looking at the picture indicates Shepard reflecting on her promise to always come back to Liara.

Fair enough, but that version of the scene simply holds little emotion for me as a player compared to the alternative.

congokong wrote...
LotSB gives her someone to fight for.

And that is a major reason why I think it is fails if played during the main game. Shepard should not feel like he has much left to fight for in ME2, he should be at his lowest.

congokong wrote...
Otherwise she's reflecting on a relationship that doesn't currently exist.

Shepard is reflecting and thinking about someone he cares for. Yes, they may not be in a relationship no more, but that is what makes it all the more heartbreaking. Here at the brink of one of Shepard's most dangerous missions he realises just how much Liara meant for him and just how much he misses her. It shows alot of regret on Shepard's part, wondering if perhaps he said or did something different on Illium, they might still be together and she might be at his side right now. And worse still, even if Shepard survives, their relationship might still be over for good.

And in the end he has to push himself away from the picture, knowing he can't afford to think about it during the mission for the sake of his team.

congokong wrote...
Also you miss out on all the bonuses if you wait until the game's practially over to do LotSB.

True, the gameplay perks are nice, but I can live without them.

congokong wrote...
My Shepard wouldn't hold out until after the suicide mission to give Liara the broker intel although I still do the terminal hacking quests and Miranda's loyalty mission first.

Would your Shepard hold out on stopping an eminent Reaper invasion? Because Hacket's briefing for Arrival starts right after Horizon IIRC, just like the email to start LOTSB. I see both cases of being able to start them during the mid-game as nothing more than gameplay and story segregation.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

The Illium cameo was terribly written and had so much blatant railroading, even though I get what they are trying to go for.

Yeah,
I see what they're going for too, but it's disjointed. It's funny if
even big Liara fans can agree on that one. Perhaps if it was good
though, you guys wouldn't have gotten LotSB to make up for it.

I suppose that is a possibility, but I still think the cameo is somewhat salvageable as long as you pick most of the lower dialog options with Liara (where you act frustrated and hostile towards her seemingly cold attitude) and avoid getting the revelation about her involvement with lazarus.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 02 février 2014 - 07:05 .

[Neria Rose]

AlexMBrennan wrote...
Like his rifle appearing in the main battery before Garrus is picked up?:innocent:

Not sure what that has to do with the romance being acknowledged, but.. okay, I guess? Can't say I ever had that issue, but I also didn't explore the Normandy much before picking Garrus up.

[congokong]

[quote]Lizardviking wrote...

[quote]congokong wrote...
And I disagree with you. Fair enough. To me looking at the picture indicates Shepard reflecting on her promise to always come back to Liara. [/quote]

[quote]Lizardviking wrote...
Fair enough, but that version of the scene simply holds little emotion for me as a player compared to the alternative.
[/quote]

Yeah, it's purely subjective.


[quote]congokong wrote...
LotSB gives her someone to fight for. [/quote]
[quote]Lizardviking wrote...
And that is a major reason why I think it is fails if played during the main game. Shepard should not feel like he has much left to fight for in ME2, he should be at his lowest.
[/quote]

My Shepard has enough hardship.

http://social.biowar.../index/17843939

Liara is the one person she has in her life. Are you saying Shepard shouldn't have a ME2 romance then (barring Liara post-suicide mission)?

[quote]congokong wrote...
Otherwise she's reflecting on a relationship that doesn't currently exist. [/quote]

[quote]Lizardviking wrote...
Shepard is reflecting and thinking about someone he cares for. Yes, they may not be in a relationship no more, but that is what makes it all the more heartbreaking. Here at the brink of one of Shepard's most dangerous missions he realises just how much Liara meant for him and just how much he misses her. It shows alot of regret on Shepard's part, wondering if perhaps he said or did something different on Illium, they might still be together and she might be at his side right now. And worse still, even if Shepard survives, their relationship might still be over for good.

And in the end he has to push himself away from the picture, knowing he can't afford to think about it during the mission for the sake of his team.
[/quote]

Both Liara and Shepard could have done A LOT different in that Illium cameo, but let's not get into that.

[quote]congokong wrote...
Also you miss out on all the bonuses if you wait until the game's practially over to do LotSB.[/quote]

[quote]Lizardviking wrote...
True, the gameplay perks are nice, but I can live without them.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I like them.

[quote]congokong wrote...
My Shepard wouldn't hold out until after the suicide mission to give Liara the broker intel although I still do the terminal hacking quests and Miranda's loyalty mission first.
[/quote]

[quote]Lizardviking wrote...
Would your Shepard hold out on stopping an eminent Reaper invasion? Because Hacket's briefing for Arrival starts right after Horizon IIRC, just like the email to start LOTSB. I see both cases of being able to start them during the mid-game as nothing more than gameplay and story segregation.
[/quote]

Ugh, it's a slippery slope if we start rationalizing which mission to do first based on priority. Realistically most loyalty missions are not essential except to clear the squadmate's head. For my Shepard LotSB is her loyalty mission.

As for Arrival, I hate Hackett so I do Arrival last.

http://social.biowar.../index/17816015

I tell him I have a long list of missions and I'd add his to it.

Another thing I like about doing LotSB pre-suicide mission is the sadness when Liara and Shepard part ways. Liara wants to join Shepard on her mission but knows she'd be more useful as the shadow broker. So Shepard has to reluctantly continue without her. That feeling is nerfed IMO if the mission is already over.

[RZIBARA]

                   


                                  


                                                                        Its simple: Ash

Modifié par RZIBARA, 02 février 2014 - 07:24 .

[Sir DeLoria]

congokong wrote...

I think Liara is the most worthy of Shepard's love. She offers everything to Shepard; her friendship, her trust, her respect, her assistance, her empathy, her sympathy, her praise, her own welfare in trying to protect Shepard's corpse, and her love if Shepard wants it. She even is willing to wait for Shepard if Shepard finds someone else because she feels Shepard deserves to be happy. What other ME character does that?

While most of the crew at some point recite the "it's an honor serving with you" line, Liara's respect and concern comes from the heart.

Don't all potential LIs offer the exact same? Tali, Miri and Garrus are at least as loving and caring as Liara. Liara's romance lines are not very different from those of the other LIs(except for Jacob of course).

[LegateRagnarok]

Wait, you can romance Samara?

[congokong]

Necanor wrote...

congokong wrote...

I think Liara is the most worthy of Shepard's love. She offers everything to Shepard; her friendship, her trust, her respect, her assistance, her empathy, her sympathy, her praise, her own welfare in trying to protect Shepard's corpse, and her love if Shepard wants it. She even is willing to wait for Shepard if Shepard finds someone else because she feels Shepard deserves to be happy. What other ME character does that?

While most of the crew at some point recite the "it's an honor serving with you" line, Liara's respect and concern comes from the heart.

Don't all potential LIs offer the exact same? Tali, Miri and Garrus are at least as loving and caring as Liara. Liara's romance lines are not very different from those of the other LIs(except for Jacob of course).

The difference is Liara offers all this even if you're not in a relationship with her. All those quotes are said by a platonic Liara. No other squadmate says that maybe one day we'd be together and they'll wait for you because you deserve to be happy. This happens in LotSB if you're already in a relationship with someone else.

Modifié par congokong, 02 février 2014 - 07:49 .

[spirosz]

congokong wrote...

Necanor wrote...

congokong wrote...

I think Liara is the most worthy of Shepard's love. She offers everything to Shepard; her friendship, her trust, her respect, her assistance, her empathy, her sympathy, her praise, her own welfare in trying to protect Shepard's corpse, and her love if Shepard wants it. She even is willing to wait for Shepard if Shepard finds someone else because she feels Shepard deserves to be happy. What other ME character does that?

While most of the crew at some point recite the "it's an honor serving with you" line, Liara's respect and concern comes from the heart.

Don't all potential LIs offer the exact same? Tali, Miri and Garrus are at least as loving and caring as Liara. Liara's romance lines are not very different from those of the other LIs(except for Jacob of course).

The difference is Liara offers all this even if you're not in a relationship with her. All those quotes are said by a platonic Liara. No other squadmate says that maybe one day we'd be together and they'll wait for you because you deserve to be happy. This happens in LotSB if you're already in a relationship with someone else.

You can argue that those traits are a form of obsessive, creepy and clingy behaviour on her part though, but I agree. 

[Hellion Rex]

Kaidan's ass. That is all.

[spirosz]

spirosz wrote...

Jack, the emotional bond those two end up sharing (depending on your Shepard obviously) and his drive to keep willing to expose her to the positives in life and let her know that there will always be a sense of warmth and happiness in her life, regardless if the two stay together or not. She's just one of those characters and the Citadel DLC brought it to a conclusion that I personally found perfect for the two, especially the tattoo scene, which is what was missing from their "vanilla" romance arc in the game.

Needs to be on every page. 

[Ghost Lightning]

eluvianix wrote...

Kaidan's ass. That is all.

Rub that thing down in some I Can't Believe It's Not Butter and go to work on it like a 4 year old on a stick of cotton candy. 

Wait wat?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

congokong wrote...
Liara is the one person she has in her life. Are you saying Shepard shouldn't have a ME2 romance then (barring Liara post-suicide mission)?

Yes I do. Aside from Samara's, because it is not a romance. And perhaps Kelly's as it is just a fling.

congokong wrote...
Both Liara and Shepard could have done A LOT different in that Illium cameo, but let's not get into that.

Both did wrong, that is true, but it also does not matter. What matters is that things went bad between them and Shepard is in the end broken up about it possibly being over forever between them and wonders just how much of it was his fault.

congokong wrote...
Ugh, it's a slippery slope if we start rationalizing which mission to do first based on priority. Realistically most loyalty missions are not essential except to clear the squadmate's head.

Yeah, let us call this one a draw since we will only end up dancing in circles about it.

congokong wrote...
For my Shepard LotSB is her loyalty mission.

And again, I believe Shepard should be as miserable as possible during the ME2 maingame. No loyalty mission for him until after the maingame!

congokong wrote...
Another thing I like about doing LotSB pre-suicide mission is the sadness when Liara and Shepard part ways. Liara wants to join Shepard on her mission but knows she'd be more useful as the shadow broker. So Shepard has to reluctantly continue without her. That feeling is nerfed IMO if the mission is already over.

That does not bother me. Both of them wants to spend more time together, but both knows that each of them has to do their own thing in order to fight the good fight.