581 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

spirosz wrote...

congokong wrote...

Necanor wrote...

congokong wrote...

I think Liara is the most worthy of Shepard's love. She offers everything to Shepard; her friendship, her trust, her respect, her assistance, her empathy, her sympathy, her praise, her own welfare in trying to protect Shepard's corpse, and her love if Shepard wants it. She even is willing to wait for Shepard if Shepard finds someone else because she feels Shepard deserves to be happy. What other ME character does that?

While most of the crew at some point recite the "it's an honor serving with you" line, Liara's respect and concern comes from the heart.

Don't all potential LIs offer the exact same? Tali, Miri and Garrus are at least as loving and caring as Liara. Liara's romance lines are not very different from those of the other LIs(except for Jacob of course).

The difference is Liara offers all this even if you're not in a relationship with her. All those quotes are said by a platonic Liara. No other squadmate says that maybe one day we'd be together and they'll wait for you because you deserve to be happy. This happens in LotSB if you're already in a relationship with someone else.

You can argue that those traits are a form of obsessive, creepy and clingy behaviour on her part though, but I agree. 

I always pictured Liara as being on the border of being obsessed with Shepard but not quite there.

[congokong]

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...
Liara is the one person she has in her life. Are you saying Shepard shouldn't have a ME2 romance then (barring Liara post-suicide mission)?

Yes I do. Aside from Samara's, because it is not a romance. And perhaps Kelly's as it is just a fling.

congokong wrote...
Both Liara and Shepard could have done A LOT different in that Illium cameo, but let's not get into that.

Both did wrong, that is true, but it also does not matter. What matters is that things went bad between them and Shepard is in the end broken up about it possibly being over forever between them and wonders just how much of it was his fault.

congokong wrote...
Ugh, it's a slippery slope if we start rationalizing which mission to do first based on priority. Realistically most loyalty missions are not essential except to clear the squadmate's head.

Yeah, let us call this one a draw since we will only end up dancing in circles about it.

congokong wrote...
For my Shepard LotSB is her loyalty mission.

And again, I believe Shepard should be as miserable as possible during the ME2 maingame. No loyalty mission for him until after the maingame!

congokong wrote...
Another thing I like about doing LotSB pre-suicide mission is the sadness when Liara and Shepard part ways. Liara wants to join Shepard on her mission but knows she'd be more useful as the shadow broker. So Shepard has to reluctantly continue without her. That feeling is nerfed IMO if the mission is already over.

That does not bother me. Both of them wants to spend more time together, but both knows that each of them has to do their own thing in order to fight the good fight.

We can just agree to disagree. This is all moot anyway. It's a purely subjective experience and luckily Bioware gives you the option to choose when to do LotSB. Do it when you feel it's most fitting for your story. I like it a few missions after their Illium encounter. You like it after the suicide mission.

Note: If Shepard really cared about continuing their romance on Illium she could have at least brought it up. Bioware intentionally did this to encourage people to buy LotSB later.

Modifié par congokong, 02 février 2014 - 08:21 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...
I wish I'd never gotten that revelation.. it was only until last year that I bothered to do those stupid hacking quests, just because I was bored and wanted to complete every quest. lol. I guess they were assuming something about that though -- that anybody who would do those quests obviously likes Liara enough to not mind her involvement with Lazarus. It's bending over backwards a bit for someone you care about. And if you don't do them, it's supposed to indicate you wouldn't care about her much in the first place.

At least that's what I get from it now.

I fail to see how you reached that conclusion, one could also just as easily do her sidequest for the sake of the expected reward in the form of XP or credits. No, I think the lack of more upset options at the revelation (which BTW, is still miles better than the "forgiveness" option) is the same as why the forgiveness options is also terrible. They either did not care enough to put any effort into the cameo or were rushed.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

StreetMagic wrote...
As much as I like ME2, they screwed up on some vital story elements with Cerberus. This is one of them. Akuze is another.

I think it feeds into a larger issue.

Project Lazarus. And Cerberus to an extend.

It was just a dumb gimmick, something they did because "Hey, it would be cool!" (kinda like ME2 as a whole really) and it would make a really neat marketing stunt. They never put any real thought into it and as a result, everything related to it suffered. Liara's cameo and the sole survivor background being among them.

[congokong]

Lizardviking wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
I wish I'd never gotten that revelation.. it was only until last year that I bothered to do those stupid hacking quests, just because I was bored and wanted to complete every quest. lol. I guess they were assuming something about that though -- that anybody who would do those quests obviously likes Liara enough to not mind her involvement with Lazarus. It's bending over backwards a bit for someone you care about. And if you don't do them, it's supposed to indicate you wouldn't care about her much in the first place.

At least that's what I get from it now.

I fail to see how you reached that conclusion, one could also just as easily do her sidequest for the sake of the expected reward in the form of XP or credits. No, I think the lack of more upset options at the revelation (which BTW, is still miles better than the "forgiveness" option) is the same as why the forgiveness options is also terrible. They either did not care enough to put any effort into the cameo or were rushed.

What was wrong with the responses? If you choose the "upset" option you get up and start yelling at her. Isn't that what a lot of people want? Her confession is very well done emotionally.

...However, her confession in LotSB if you skipped the terminal quests is terrible. She says it more out of awkwardness than shame and you can't even yell at her.

[congokong]

StreetMagic wrote...

congokong wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...
I wish I'd never gotten that revelation.. it was only until last year that I bothered to do those stupid hacking quests, just because I was bored and wanted to complete every quest. lol. I guess they were assuming something about that though -- that anybody who would do those quests obviously likes Liara enough to not mind her involvement with Lazarus. It's bending over backwards a bit for someone you care about. And if you don't do them, it's supposed to indicate you wouldn't care about her much in the first place.

At least that's what I get from it now.

I fail to see how you reached that conclusion, one could also just as easily do her sidequest for the sake of the expected reward in the form of XP or credits. No, I think the lack of more upset options at the revelation (which BTW, is still miles better than the "forgiveness" option) is the same as why the forgiveness options is also terrible. They either did not care enough to put any effort into the cameo or were rushed.

What was wrong with the responses? If you choose the "upset" option you get up and start yelling at her. Isn't that what a lot of people want? Her confession is very well done emotionally.

...However, her confession in LotSB if you skipped the terminal quests is terrible. She says it more out of awkwardness than shame and you can't even yell at her.

Her confession is directed to someone who romanced her. It's very bizarre otherwise.

As for chewing her out, it's just kind of disjointed. You don't get to leave on that note. You still say goodbye in a nice way. It doesn't present a progression of your choices or new standing with the character, like many ME dialogues do.

Oh right. I always romance her so I forget that. Yeah, it's a bit awkward. It's why people feel that Liara's romance is almost canon.

The game doesn't allow you to hate her. This isn't the only case. Where's my renegade interrupt to break Joker's nose for getting you killed when you first meet him in ME2? Or why do you have to forgive Miranda in ME3 for wanting to turn you into a Cerberus slave? Or why do you have to be so friendly with Hackett after he sells you out to the batarians for saving the galaxy in Arrival?

There are some decisions regarding forgiveness that are forced on you because they're essential to the story.

Modifié par congokong, 02 février 2014 - 08:59 .

[Teddie Sage]

Kaidan as Male Shepard for me.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

congokong wrote...
What was wrong with the responses? If you choose the "upset" option you get up and start yelling at her. Isn't that what a lot of people want? Her confession is very well done emotionally.

What is wrong with the responses? I'll break it down.

The forgiveness path is bad because the game artifically stops the conversation. Now that the truth is out for why Liara acts so coldly, a romancing Shepard should be able continue the conversation and reaffirm their relationship (or atleast try to). Instead Shepard just says goodbye and leaves for no other reason than Bioware needing to have the status of their relationship be in the air in order to push players into the ME2 romances.

In short, crappy railroading.

For the condemnation path, I think Streetmagic says it best. Because the conversation immediatly turns friendly afterwards again and Shepard's disapproval does not affect anything.

congokong wrote...
...However, her confession in LotSB if you skipped the terminal quests is terrible. She says it more out of awkwardness than shame and you can't even yell at her.

I could not disagree more. The confession in LOTSB is far better if you want to take the forgiveness path (obviously it sucks for those wanting to condemn her actions) because Shepard's lines does not sound like something a robot would say (and no, I am not talking about the VA preformance here, I am talking about the actual words spoken). Shepard actually acts surprised over the news and his words feels far more heartfelt, same goes for Liara's response. And unlike the original confession, it makes sense why the talk about it is kept short, because there is a larger issue at hand now, which is rescuing Feron.

[Han Shot First]

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...
Liara is the one person she has in her life. Are you saying Shepard shouldn't have a ME2 romance then (barring Liara post-suicide mission)?

Yes I do. Aside from Samara's, because it is not a romance. And perhaps Kelly's as it is just a fling.

Miranda can be a fling as well. It depends on which dialogue options are chosen.

Or at least it can in ME2. ME3 complicates things in that Miranda has seemingly fallen in love with Shepard during his imprisonment. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, I guess.

[congokong]

StreetMagic wrote...

congokong wrote...

Oh right. I always romance her so I forget that. Yeah, it's a bit awkward. It's why people feel that Liara's romance is almost canon.

The game doesn't allow you to hate her. This isn't the only case. Where's my renegade interrupt to break Joker's nose for getting you killed when you first meet him in ME2? Or why do you have to forgive Miranda in ME3 for wanting to turn you into a Cerberus slave? Or why do you have to be so friendly with Hackett after he sells you out to the batarians for saving the galaxy in Arrival?

There are some decisions regarding forgiveness that are forced on you because they're essential to the story.

Miranda's an easy one to handle to me. You just don't gain her loyalty in the first place. There was a time when I liked gaining everyone's loyalty, but I started thinking more in-character, and sometimes I wouldn't bother with it. All of Shepard's standing with Cerberus should be hashed out already after Jack, Overlord, and a few other ME2 quests. If you've somehow kept her loyalty after all that, I think it's fair for the game to assume you're pretty forgiving and on a friendly terms with her by ME3. She's gone through various tests a few times.

To me, Jacob's a trickier one. He's not really a Cerberus loyalist.. In Jack's words "Jacob doesn't know who he is". I might want to keep his loyalty, because he's been pretty iffy about Cerberus in the first place.

That's true. By a completionist persective with a Shepard who is very focused on succeeding I get Miranda's loyalty to ensure success in the mission; not because I like her. But even in ME2 you can never be truly mean to her. In fact, if you have conversations with her you seem to play amateur therapist.

I have mixed feelings about Cerberus. My renegade Shepard even tells Miranda that she wishes Cerberus made her an offer way back. They do devote monstrous resources to stopping the collectors while the Alliance pretends the reapers don't exist and do nothing to save their colonies. Cerberus has its share of skeletons in the closet but it would be naive to assume the Alliance was much better. A few times you're given N7 missions that are very ethically questionable. The difference is the Alliance is government sanctioned.

[SlottsMachine]

LegateRagnarok wrote...

Wait, you can romance Samara?

In the Citadel dlc you can countinue one I believe. 

[Han Shot First]

StreetMagic wrote...

As sexy and cool as she is, romancing Samara is like.. romancing a grandma or something. Worse. Isn't she like 700 years old?

She is old, but the Asari don't appear to age the same way human women do. Even those old enough to be matriarchs can be quite fit and attractive. Not a wrinkle to be seen on Benezia or Aria, for example. I'd assume Tevos is probably a matriarch as well.

For that a reason a Samaramance is kind of having have a character romance a 1,000 year old elf in a fantasy-based game. Sure, they are ancient. But they don't look it.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 02 février 2014 - 09:32 .

[Sir DeLoria]

StreetMagic wrote...

As sexy and cool as she is, romancing Samara is like.. romancing a grandma or something. Worse. Isn't she like 700 years old?

Isn't she even older?

[congokong]

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...
What was wrong with the responses? If you choose the "upset" option you get up and start yelling at her. Isn't that what a lot of people want? Her confession is very well done emotionally.

What is wrong with the responses? I'll break it down.

The forgiveness path is bad because the game artifically stops the conversation. Now that the truth is out for why Liara acts so coldly, a romancing Shepard should be able continue the conversation and reaffirm their relationship (or atleast try to). Instead Shepard just says goodbye and leaves for no other reason than Bioware needing to have the status of their relationship be in the air in order to push players into the ME2 romances.

In short, crappy railroading.

For the condemnation path, I think Streetmagic says it best. Because the conversation immediatly turns friendly afterwards again and Shepard's disapproval does not affect anything.

congokong wrote...
...However, her confession in LotSB if you skipped the terminal quests is terrible. She says it more out of awkwardness than shame and you can't even yell at her.

I could not disagree more. The confession in LOTSB is far better if you want to take the forgiveness path (obviously it sucks for those wanting to condemn her actions) because Shepard's lines does not sound like something a robot would say (and no, I am not talking about the VA preformance here, I am talking about the actual words spoken). Shepard actually acts surprised over the news and his words feels far more heartfelt, same goes for Liara's response. And unlike the original confession, it makes sense why the talk about it is kept short, because there is a larger issue at hand now, which is rescuing Feron.

I disagree. If you could not disagree more with me than how are you agreeing with me about it sucking if you want to condemn her actions in the LotSB path? You completely miss the terminal path's condemnation where regarding Liara's emotional response where she restates in exhaustion as if she's said it to herself so many times that it was either Cerberus or the Collectors.

The forgiveness path seems fine in both forms although I don't like Shepard actually saying "thank you" to something so questionable in the LotSB path. I prefer the terminal path. Shepard is more comforting/assuring.

I reiterate, Liara's confession should have been more shameful in the LotSB path. I can't see how you prefer the LotSB path that completely omits Liara's shame that she knew there would be strings attached to bringing Shepard back, that she tried convincing herself she did it for Shepard, and that she couldn't let Shepard go.

Shepard acts surprised in both paths.

Either way, you cannot bring up any hostility regarding the decision later.

[congokong]

Lizardviking wrote...

congokong wrote...
What was wrong with the responses? If you choose the "upset" option you get up and start yelling at her. Isn't that what a lot of people want? Her confession is very well done emotionally.

What is wrong with the responses? I'll break it down.

The forgiveness path is bad because the game artifically stops the conversation. Now that the truth is out for why Liara acts so coldly, a romancing Shepard should be able continue the conversation and reaffirm their relationship (or atleast try to). Instead Shepard just says goodbye and leaves for no other reason than Bioware needing to have the status of their relationship be in the air in order to push players into the ME2 romances.

In short, crappy railroading.

For the condemnation path, I think Streetmagic says it best. Because the conversation immediatly turns friendly afterwards again and Shepard's disapproval does not affect anything.

The problem here is you're taking it a bit too literally. It's a game. The conversation ends by clicking right side dialogue unless you click "Liara's needs" which does something that never happens in an investigate option any other time in the series by closing dialogue.

You can't bring up your relationship because Bioware wants money and waited for LotSB to draw customers in.

If we're taking this literally then why isn't Shepard saying "Liara, this is crazy. You'd rather hunt the shadow broker than help me save the galaxy? Wouldn't you rather want revenge on the collectors who killed me in the first place and wanted my body? And aren't you concerned that someone is going to kill you for hunting the shadow broker? Your own secretary was his agent. That's very troubling."

But you can't say any of this. Yes, the dialogue turning neutral after either assuring her or condemning her actions is off. But it is a game and they didn't want Shepard to explore certain things like rekindling romances or hating Liara because she's essential to the series. She joins your crew in ME3 no matter what you say or do.

Modifié par congokong, 02 février 2014 - 09:57 .

[LegateRagnarok]

I think Samara is more like 1000. She tells Shep that she's been chasing Morinth for 300 odd years

[congokong]

LegateRagnarok wrote...

I think Samara is more like 1000. She tells Shep that she's been chasing Morinth for 300 odd years

When I heard that my first thoughts were "she must be a really lousy justicar."

The asari age thing makes no real sense. If asari can live a 1000 years then shouldn't Samara be near death now? Aria is supposed to be a 1000 too yet she looks so much younger. And Matriarch Aetheyta looked to get 30 years younger between ME2 and ME3 even though she's a 1000 as well.

[LegateRagnarok]

Does the game mention how old Benezia is? She looks a lot older.

Other than that Aria would seem in her prime not her twilight years haha