22 réponses à ce sujet

[_Guile]

I'd like to start an iniative for a new verion of CEP (v2.5), which will NOT include new models or tilesets.... 

Rather, in this version it will be more geared toward high quality custom content scripting & edits to 2da & tlk files ...

With a starter module that comes working fully right up out of the gate, with 0 scripts in the module (rather in hak).

I'd also like to see some new feats added, maybe even fix some old worthless feats like circle kick & dirty fighting?

The reason I have proposed this initiative is, I'd like to see a high quality community project started with a definite community focus & effort towards providing all builders with higher quality scripted content....

I'm already working on integrating about 10 conversations into one script routine, which includes Color Chat / Item Name & Descripting Coloring / Editing, a CEP version of my Forge (with most CEP properties in it, including 20d20 dmg & 100 SR + most known feats), the Omega Pool Forge (Cast Spell properties), and much more (as I'm working on integrating tailors & dyekit into the custom conversation system)....

Anyway, if anyone might be interested in this project / iniative let me know, or just write some comments below...


Genisys / Guile  

Modifié par _Guile, 02 février 2014 - 04:38 .

[Squatting Monk]

Might wanna take a look here and here.

[Pstemarie]

CEP revival is underway at the first link Squatting Monk posted. I'm not sure what the point is of having two different versions of the CEP. Maybe make your project an add-on?

As far as scripts in a hak - that disables the ability of builders to modify them for their own needs. As I'm sure you're aware, most builders have their own systems that would need to be integrated with yours. Thus, you'll need to create some method that allows builders to hook their module events into your hak-based module event scripts.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 02 février 2014 - 12:40 .

[Shadooow]

_Guile wrote...

I'd like to start an iniative for a new verion of CEP (v2.5), which will NOT include new models or tilesets.... 

Rather, in this version it will be more geared toward high quality custom content scripting & edits to 2da & tlk files ...

With a starter module that comes working fully right up out of the gate, with 0 scripts in the module (rather in hak).

I'd also like to see some new feats added, maybe even fix some old worthless feats like circle kick & dirty fighting?

The reason I have proposed this initiative is, I'd like to see a high quality community project started with a definite community focus & effort towards providing all builders with higher quality scripted content....

I'm already working on integrating about 10 conversations into one script routine, which includes Color Chat / Item Name & Descripting Coloring / Editing, a CEP version of my Forge (with most CEP properties in it, including 20d20 dmg & 100 SR + most known feats), the Omega Pool Forge (Cast Spell properties), and much more (as I'm working on integrating tailors & dyekit into the custom conversation system)....

Anyway, if anyone might be interested in this project / iniative let me know, or just write some comments below...


Genisys / Guile  

CEP 2 is not ideal. We all know it I think. However maintaining a second version of the same is even worse. If you want to do it some "community" project, design a goal and a scope, but something from everything? That wont have any success.

What NWN needs is a "Foundation" a project designed by henesua. However that is solely dependant on a third party tools and applications which were not yet created.

So you want to help the community? I suggest to either become a part of the ongoing community projects such as CEP2reborn, CPP, Q and even CCChallenge. At least initiate there and tell your ideas and opinions on these projects.

+ what said Pstemarie, scripts are the thing that many builders, myself included hates on the CEP2 for example.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 02 février 2014 - 05:20 .

[leo_x]

Since CEP is already covered really, I think the more interesting project would be going back to beginning -- maybe this is what "Foundation" is -- but I mean sit down and rethink _everything_ with nwn©x plugins (it's hard with win/lin servers I know, I consider all but the win client dead) and custom content being built up hand in hand. E,g do item properties need to be filled with special integer constants representing other integers that could be represented directly?

That would mean dumping all the stuff from the OCs tho...

Modifié par pope_leo, 02 février 2014 - 06:35 .

[_Guile]

OK, great responses guys.....

Let me clarify that, it's not really about the CEP per se, I'm pleased with cep 2.4, and I truly DO NOT want to have to re-script for a new version of the CEP (that part got on my nerves!)...

I'm thinking more along the lines of a Community Scripting Initiative, one which would include high quality content for all builders, of course the scripts could go in the cep_custom.hak once you are done editing them, if you want to free up your module of resources in the way....

Maybe we can make a Community Hak Pack, which would include all of the community scripting & editing to 2das, as a hak pack, of course it would need to go above CEP... Basically I wanted to do some good work for the community, so I started working on integrating a bunch of common conversations into one scripting routine, it's been MONTHS of work.... I think it's well worth the time & is a quality piece of work that should end up being part of either the CEP or some other Hak Pak that will be standard for the community....

I'm interested in doing a starter module & hak pak for the community, one which will be purely quality, bug tested thoroughly through and through, just didn't know if there was anyone else who might be interested in such a project....

[The Amethyst Dragon]

The kind of scripting and conversations you're talking about would probably be of interest to others.

I would suggest that instead of packaging them up in a hak, put them in an erf so that the scripts and such can be easily edited by builders after they're added to a module.

As a builder, it would most likely turn me away from even checking out any of the work if it meant I couldn't make any modifications to the scripts without going through the extra work of copying the scripts to another hak file just so the changes would remain.

[henesua]

Yeah, I am in agreement on the dislike of scripts in a HAK. I have no idea why you'd put scripts in a HAK instead of an ERF anyway.

A better way is to take the approach i did with my rest system as well as innocuous familiars. The last version of NESS also followed this pattern:

Create a core set of scripts which users are not supposed to edit, and add configurable scripts on top which users can modify to customize behavior. When you update the system you release updates to the core scripts, or provide snippets to add to the configurable scripts. But the user's modifications will remain untouched.

This works for a sub-system in a module.

Furthermore, a very nice effort was put forth by Squatting Monk to create a plugin architecture for a module. I created my rest system to work with this as a plugin. It would be best to follow this model, and create more plugins for it.

As it is, the vision stated above for "high quality" and so on doesn't excite me. It sounds all too vague and meaningless to grab my attention on a project of this scope. That sort of energy would be better placed on a well scoped project. Something like the specific sub-systems you are known for, Guile. It seems to me that you could do a great deal of good assembling your work in pieces to function as plugins to work with the framework that squatting monk put together.

Modifié par henesua, 04 février 2014 - 08:44 .

[leo_x]

Henesua, could you post a link to Squatting Monks plugin architecture model or a high level description?

[henesua]

I couldn't dig up a link for that, pope_leo. Sorry. Squating Monk did the work last year for The Foundation project for which he and Rolo carried the torch while I disappeared into JavaScript dev land for six months.

He can describe better than I. The basic idea is that each event in a module can call a plugin with "execute script". So you more or less plug in a subsystem for an event by identifying a script or scripts to execute in that event. I believe you identify a script as a local string on the module.

Squatting Monk should be the one to speak to this. I hope he is interested in revisiting that project. I thought he was doing interesting work.

Modifié par henesua, 04 février 2014 - 09:40 .

[Shadooow]

Pope, henesua basically talks about the event-based scripting which was presented by the PRC team (of not by someone else even before them). Its a great concept which however suffers a TMI/lag issues later when you have lots of script plugged in. This can be solved easily via delaying but thats rather workaround than anything. But on the other hand, there is no better solution imo, Sinfar also uses this althought they have it done via NWNX afaik, saving lots of instructions and CPU.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 04 février 2014 - 09:47 .

[Squatting Monk]

I've never publicly posted my framework, but you can download the current snapshot here. It's functional, though there are some features I wanna add and some things that need better implementation. I've got a start on the documentation here, though it doesn't yet cover some of the more powerful features that can really make it shine.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 05 février 2014 - 12:17 .

[Tarot Redhand]

I think that some sort of best practice script library is well overdue. The thing is I also think that it needs to include such things as night/day lock/unlock scripts that preferably do not use triggers and if at all possible no heart beat script either. But that is just an example. I repeat that I am talking about a library though not some monolithic pre-compiled and stuck in a hak monstrosity. My vision is of a database that contains all the scripts (ie a single download gets the lot). There would be periodic patch files released for it containing any new scripts as well as further debugged ones.

Anyway enough of my mini rant.

TR

[leo_x]

Thanks!   It looks cool already.   This could really revolutionize community script releases.  I could see how shunting out the heavier lifting/backend to NWNX might be a good idea tho.

Modifié par pope_leo, 05 février 2014 - 09:12 .

[Pstemarie]

This looks similar to the plugin architecture that was in the HCR2.0 by 0100010 from years ago - HERE. Hopefully, since it comes from a much higher profile author, people will actually use it. I know I'm all excited to see where Monk goes with it.

Modifié par Pstemarie, 05 février 2014 - 12:13 .

[Squatting Monk]

Yeah, that was what I started with when I began developing my module. I later incorporated many elements of the Common Scripting Framework (from whence the plugin architecture came) and MemeticAI (which provided crucial utilities such as lists and library dispatchers). One of the great things about NWN is there's so many giants on whose shoulders you can stand.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 05 février 2014 - 08:20 .

[Pstemarie]

Wow - I was right?? Score one for me - I actually looked at advanced coding and comprehended it - maybe I am starting to get this!

Modifié par Pstemarie, 05 février 2014 - 09:23 .

[henesua]

I need to get my head around all of this, Monk. I wish we had you on our team.

[_Guile]

I don't really think the hak is necessary, it was just an idea (nothing more)....
However, ideally, you wouldn't really want to edit the Tailor's Scripting, would you?
The point in a hak having scripts that "don't really need to be changed" is to reduce the number of scripts inside your module, which can really effect "bloat" of the # of scripts in your module. Sure I don't mind having 100 - 400 scripts, but when you start talking about 500 - 2000, whoosh, that's a bit much. It takes too much time to "dig" for functions found in includes and stuff, truly....

I suspect a better idea would be, for the community to create some great "includes" & "systems" that don't really need to be edited, (Think along the line of custom conversations that you can edit in the toolset, but don't need to edit the scripts attached to the conversation). I've found some great includes in nwn with a ton of functions in them (think like 4000+ line includes), but the community truly hasn't come together to provide a module that "has it all", meaning all of the great scripting, includes, and systems (that truly don't need to be edited).... Sure there are some systems that need to be edited like XP Systems, a Forge (The Config File only), but bringing it all together would be bit O work, truly.... Anyway, was looking for the community to become "inspired" to create something great for everyone, I just hope other "open minded" people are interested...  (Yeah I'm not hearing any trollage.)

Modifié par _Guile, 07 février 2014 - 05:16 .

[GhostOfGod]

_Guile wrote...

I suspect a better idea would be, for the community to create some great "includes" & "systems" that don't really need to be edited

Tarot touched on this in a comment above. This is actually something that the NWN2 community did. I believe it was just one or two excellent scripters that took it upon themselves to make one huge scripting library and that is basically what most people are using now.

And there are certainly those among us who can script very well. Lightfoot for example usually condenses the stuff I post and I am grateful to him for that because it helps me learn to make better scripts. A saying by Mark Twain kinda gos along with it, "If I had more time I would've written a shorter letter." Meaning that if you really think about it and are a very good scripter you can keep everything very short, tidy, consolidated, modular, etc.

Now just getting people to agree on how best to do this and setting aside scripting styles, etc..That would be the hard part since there are quite a few who would be qualified to do something like this (myself NOT included ;-) ) And of course there are those who use NWNX and those who don't. People who use different databases, etc.

It'd definitley be quite the task.

Modifié par GhostOfGod, 07 février 2014 - 05:33 .

[Shadooow]

I like the idea of the general include file with a functions made by a community. Not that I would need it, as I have everything I need in my own one, but the idea itself is good and such library can come handy for a starting scripters.

One problem is that the "community" never accepts whatever you choose to be inside it . But thats not something you should worry about, its not for them.

[Proleric]

_Guile wrote...

...The point in a hak having scripts that "don't really need to be changed" is to reduce the number of scripts inside your module, which can really effect "bloat" of the # of scripts in your module...

So true. The toolset grinds to a halt, in my experience, once the module's script list starts to run over a few pages. That's why I often put script systems in a hak.

Includes can be great, but NWN's lack of script parameters forces us to have many main scripts, too. Also, as the Bioware combat scripts demonstrate, when functionality is deeply embedded in nested includes, it's harder to change.

Clearly, erf files are better for volatile scripts that are likely to require customisation, but it's also possible to customise a hak script, either by renaming it, or by putting it in a top hak.

Modifié par Proleric1, 07 février 2014 - 09:41 .

[_Guile]

Personally Proleric, I just edit my Config scripts, and then put them into the hak when done, no real need to go back and edit them once you set them up how you want them... (You can export / import & overwrite resources in Haks with no problem, just right click to export, and drag & drop to import, and of course select overwrite (yes).