50 réponses à ce sujet

[Westan Willows]

I am going to built a Sorc/RDD. How maney RDD lvs should I take at a time. I don't want a lv 16 Sorc/RDD who can only cast lv3 spells (and only one of thoes ) He is starting out at

STR 8
DEX 10
CON 14
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 18.

[MrZork]

You need to give more detail on what you want the toon to do, where you will play it, etc. Why are you choosing that class combination? Is he primarily a spellcaster who incidentally happens to be quite strong? Is this for a particular SP module or modules? Is he going to be a sword mage? And so on.

(Yes, he's obviously not, going to be a swordmage, but those sorts of details can give other readers some idea of the advice that might be useful to you.)

[Empyre65]

I looked in the Epic Character Search Engine and saw no builds with Sorcerer / RDD without a third class. Also, even the ones with 20 or more levels of Sorcerer focused on making the character a warrior first and a caster afterward.

[Elhanan]

At a glance, perhaps 30 Sor/ 10 RDD; 4 RDD pre-Epic, and the rest in Epic lvls. However, I am not a fan of either class, and am uncertain if the pre-Epic RDD addition is warranted.

[Westan Willows]

MrZork wrote...

You need to give more detail on what you want the toon to do, where you will play it, etc. Why are you choosing that class combination? Is he primarily a spellcaster who incidentally happens to be quite strong? Is this for a particular SP module or modules? Is he going to be a sword mage? And so on.

(Yes, he's obviously not, going to be a swordmage, but those sorts of details can give other readers some idea of the advice that might be useful to you.)

    He will be primanily a spellcaster. He will play in the OC SoU HotU Sands of Fate etc. I am going SP. If he ever takes WF it will be Morningstar. <_<

[Westan Willows]

Empyre65 wrote...

I looked in the Epic Character Search Engine and saw no builds with Sorcerer / RDD without a third class. Also, even the ones with 20 or more levels of Sorcerer focused on making the character a warrior first and a caster afterward.

 Thanks for the link. I will look at some of the builds and see if they will work for me. The build must be playable from lv1 up:happy:

[Westan Willows]

Elhanan wrote...

At a glance, perhaps 30 Sor/ 10 RDD; 4 RDD pre-Epic, and the rest in Epic lvls. However, I am not a fan of either class, and am uncertain if the pre-Epic RDD addition is warranted.

 That should work. I"ll have +1 matual armor, +2 str and dradon breath. and still have 8 lv spells. thanks.

[Westan Willows]

I am trying 'The Transcending Knight' by Mick Dagger.

[Empyre65]

It's a shame that he didn't take Blind Fight, but it would be hard to work it in because the build is so feat starved. As-is, he takes 2 pre-epic feats in epic levels. Mick Dagger is still around, so he might be able to offer some tweaks on his own build, drawing 9 years of additional experience.

Now that I know where you will be playing this, here's a heavily tweaked version (drawing on my additional experience since then) of a build I played in the same modules back in '08:

Dragon Knight 3 (Paladin 29 / Sorcerer 1 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)
Human, Lawful Good
Playable 1 - 40, PvM
Optimized for SoU, Hotu, and Sands of fate

Abilities:
STR: 16 (38)
DEX: 8
CON: 12 (14)
WIS: 14
INT: 12 (14)
CHA: 14 (16)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Paladin(1): Weapon Focus: Longsword, Power Attack
02: Paladin(2): {Smite Evil}
03: Paladin(3): Cleave
04: Paladin(4): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Paladin(5)
06: Sorcerer(1): Blind Fight
07: Red Dragon Disciple(1)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(2): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Paladin(6): Knockdown
10: Paladin(7)
11: Paladin(8)
12: Paladin(9): STR+1, Toughness, (STR=21)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(3)
14: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=23)
15: Paladin(10): Improved Critical: Longsword
16: Paladin(11): STR+1, (STR=24)
17: Paladin(12)
18: Paladin(13): Great Cleave
19: Paladin(14)
20: Paladin(15): STR+1, (STR=25)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Epic Weapon Focus: Longsword
22: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
23: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=14)
24: Red Dragon Disciple(8): STR+1, Overwhelming Critical: Longsword, (STR=26)
25: Red Dragon Disciple(9): (INT=14)
26: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=30), (CHA=16)
27: Paladin(16): Devastating Critical: Longsword
28: Paladin(17): STR+1, (STR=31)
29: Paladin(18)
30: Paladin(19): Great Strength I, (STR=32)
31: Paladin(20)
32: Paladin(21): STR+1, (STR=33)
33: Paladin(22): Great Strength II, (STR=34)
34: Paladin(23): Armor Skin
35: Paladin(24)
36: Paladin(25): STR+1, Great Strength III, (STR=36)
37: Paladin(26): Epic Prowess
38: Paladin(27)
39: Paladin(28): Great Strength IV, (STR=37)
40: Paladin(29): STR+1, Epic Toughness I, (STR=38)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 518
Skillpoints: 187
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 28/26/18
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +5
BAB: 28
AB (max, naked): 46 (melee), 28 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 19/30
Spell Casting: Paladin(4),Sorcerer(1)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(57), Lore 19(21), Search 29(31), Spellcraft 27(29), Spot 29(31), Tumble 20(19)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(4), Save(8)
02: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(10)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(12)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(14)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(16)
06: Spellcraft(9), Save(11)
07: Discipline(2), Search(2), Spellcraft(1), Spot(10)
08: Discipline(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1)
09: Discipline(1), Save(3)
10: Discipline(1), Save(6)
11: Discipline(1), Save(9)
12: Discipline(1), Save(12)
13: Discipline(1), Search(5), Spellcraft(5), Spot(5)
14: Discipline(1), Search(1), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1)
15: Discipline(1), Save(3)
16: Discipline(1), Save(6)
17: Discipline(1), Save(9)
18: Discipline(1), Save(12)
19: Discipline(1), Save(15)
20: Discipline(1), Save(18)
21: Discipline(1), Search(7), Spellcraft(7), Spot(7)
22: Search(2), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1)
23: Search(2), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1)
24: Search(2), Spellcraft(1), Spot(1)
25: Search(3), Spot(1)
26: Search(4), Spot(1)
27: Discipline(5)
28: Discipline(2), Lore(1), Tumble(1)
29: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
30: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
31: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
32: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
33: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
34: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
35: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
36: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
37: Discipline(1), Tumble(2)
38: Discipline(1), Lore(2), Tumble(1)
39: Discipline(1), Lore(4)
40: Discipline(1), Lore(4)

[MrZork]

Empyre65 wrote...
Dragon Knight 3 (Paladin 29 / Sorcerer 1 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)

Westan said he wants this toon to be "primanily a spellcaster". Maybe reverse the paladin/sorc ratio? ;-)

Westan, there are several builds on the search engine with 20+ sorcerer levels. I would suggest starting with one of those and see if any of them catches your eye.

BTW, am still not sure what exactly you are hoping to get from RDD in this build?

[rogueknight333]

The main benefits of RDD (AC and Stat bonuses, especially strength) are most valuable to a melee combatant, which means that as a general rule there is not a lot of point to using RDD levels in a build meant to be primarily a spellcaster. Usually Bard, being relatively better than Sorcs at melee, is a better choice for RDDs. The main reason to use Sorc instead is if you are making a Paladin/RDD, in which case you will normally have to use Sorc rather than Bard due to alignment conflicts.

If you do want to play a spellsword build who is primarily a caster but still makes some use of RDD I suggest something like Paladin 4/Sorcerer 26/RDD 10. Paladin is probably the most effective class you could add to Sorc/RDD, but if you have alignment conflicts or other RP reasons why you do not want to use it, you can substitute Fighter levels (or really just about any warrior class) instead (at least if you are human or half-elf, as other races might suffer an XP penalty if they pick an unfavored class - if so you could use a prestige class like Champion of Torm to avoid this).

[Westan Willows]

MrZork wrote...

Empyre65 wrote...
Dragon Knight 3 (Paladin 29 / Sorcerer 1 / Red Dragon Disciple 10)

Westan said he wants this toon to be "primanily a spellcaster". Maybe reverse the paladin/sorc ratio? ;-)

Westan, there are several builds on the search engine with 20+ sorcerer levels. I would suggest starting with one of those and see if any of them catches your eye.

BTW, am still not sure what exactly you are hoping to get from RDD in this build?

 I am starting to wonder that myself. All that my Sorc is getting so far is a skill dump.

[Westan Willows]

rogueknight333 wrote...

The main benefits of RDD (AC and Stat bonuses, especially strength) are most valuable to a melee combatant, which means that as a general rule there is not a lot of point to using RDD levels in a build meant to be primarily a spellcaster. Usually Bard, being relatively better than Sorcs at melee, is a better choice for RDDs. The main reason to use Sorc instead is if you are making a Paladin/RDD, in which case you will normally have to use Sorc rather than Bard due to alignment conflicts.

If you do want to play a spellsword build who is primarily a caster but still makes some use of RDD I suggest something like Paladin 4/Sorcerer 26/RDD 10. Paladin is probably the most effective class you could add to Sorc/RDD, but if you have alignment conflicts or other RP reasons why you do not want to use it, you can substitute Fighter levels (or really just about any warrior class) instead (at least if you are human or half-elf, as other races might suffer an XP penalty if they pick an unfavored class - if so you could use a prestige class like Champion of Torm to avoid this).

 The more that I try the more I have to agree with you. The main reason I don't do Bard is I tend to go LG.  Oh well back to work./

[Westan Willows]

Empyre65 why not get the Sorc lv in at lv1?

[Empyre65]

Taking Paladin at level 1 lets you take Weapon Focus right away. It also will make the NPCs identify you as a Paladin. You also have 1 higher BAB at level 1 that way.

RDD is nice to have when you play Sands of Fate for at least 3 reasons that I won't spoil for you. Also nice to have is a weapon that does acid damage and a ranged weapon that does cold damage.

[Westan Willows]

Empyre65 wrote...

Taking Paladin at level 1 lets you take Weapon Focus right away. It also will make the NPCs identify you as a Paladin. You also have 1 higher BAB at level 1 that way.

RDD is nice to have when you play Sands of Fate for at least 3 reasons that I won't spoil for you. Also nice to have is a weapon that does acid damage and a ranged weapon that does cold damage.

 After thinking about it I realize that you were right. The class you take at lv1 marks you. Now my only problen is how do I download your build?

[Westan Willows]

BTW: I am tempted to put Sorc in at lv7 so that I could have 10 ranks of spellcraft. Every 5 ranks gives you +1 on save throws (if any) :-)

[Westan Willows]

After looking closer at your build I think I will keep it the same.

[Empyre65]

Westan Willows wrote...
Now my only problen is how do I download your build?

Copy-and-paste it from the forums into Notepad (or another text editor), and then from there into the Notes tab of your in-game journal.

[MrZork]

Westan Willows wrote...

BTW: I am tempted to put Sorc in at lv7 so that I could have 10 ranks of spellcraft. Every 5 ranks gives you +1 on save throws (if any) :-)

The save bonus from spellcraft works differently than the AC bonus from tumble. The spellcraft bonus to saves is based on total skill levels in spellcraft, not just ranks. So, if you have 9 ranks in spellcraft and an intelligence of 12, then you will have +2 to saves versus spells. This applies to anything that adds to the spellcraft skill, including items, spell effects, bard song, etc. (up to the cap) as well as feats that add to the skill. So, a level 22 sorcerer with 25 ranks in spellcraft, INT 14, Greater Gloves of Spellcraft (+6), and a Ring of Magic Defences (+2) will have 35 total levels in spellcraft and a save bonus of +7.

So, the 9 ranks in spellcraft that the listed toon can get with a level of sorcerer at level 6 will result in 10 total skill levels with no gear. Good enough for a +2 bonus.

Modifié par MrZork, 04 février 2014 - 04:16 .

[Empyre65]

Also, Spellcraft is a class skill for RDD.

[WebShaman]

You might want to use the PRC implimentation of the RDD (and associated feats) instead of "vanilla" NWN here.

The RDD that Bioware made is...not a very good translation of the PnP version, tbh.

The PRC changes that (amongst other things) so that the RDD does actually compare to the PnP version. See http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=4560 for details.

for one, the RDD (which really is a misdeneamor - it should just be [insert color here] Dragon Disciple) should add to caster level progression (which the Bioware standard translation does not) due to the inclusion of the

Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) feat

This really changes how the Prestige Class can be implemented into the Sorcerer Class progression!

NOW you can take 4 levels of DD before Epic levels, without harming your Caster level progression by taking this feat.  It basically allows you to take 4 levels of DD and still retain Sorcerer spellcasting progression (at the cost of a feat slot, of course).

Modifié par WebShaman, 04 février 2014 - 08:23 .

[MagicalMaster]

Keep in mind PRC adds a whole bunch of brokenly overpowered stuff. Maybe people find it interesting but it's not even remotely close to balanced (not that standard NWN is but PRC makes it much worse). PRC also doesn't play well with some modules from what I recall.

[WebShaman]

MagicalMaster wrote...

Keep in mind PRC adds a whole bunch of brokenly overpowered stuff. Maybe people find it interesting but it's not even remotely close to balanced (not that standard NWN is but PRC makes it much worse). PRC also doesn't play well with some modules from what I recall.

It adds what is added to the PnP counterpart.  What IS broken is the rather limited AI system that Bioware includes with the game, and the exclusion of a lot of feats, skills, etc that would have went a looooong way to balancing the game much better (ala Dev Crit, for example, and others).

Of course, one doesn't HAVE to use parts of it, if one considers it overpowered, cheesey, whatever.  That is the good part of the PRC - there are a lot of switches for turning X on (or off, or implementing different rule interpretations of such).

As for "play well" - well, it is a Hak, of course!  Thus, most Mods with Haks will have conflicts, one way or another.  A lot of work was done by Players (me included) to make many of the more popular mods "compatible" with the PRC.  I don't know if that information is still available, however, as the PRC forum seems to be...offline, sadly.

Strange is, most "accept" the CEP - which is a hak.  So why is the PRC such a big deal here?

It ADDS to the game.  In my book, that is never bad.

[MagicalMaster]

WebShaman wrote...

Of course, one doesn't HAVE to use parts of it, if one considers it overpowered, cheesey, whatever.  That is the good part of the PRC - there are a lot of switches for turning X on (or off, or implementing different rule interpretations of such).

Sure.  But someone who didn't know bettter might not understand that some things are very overpowered and thus think a module is way too easy or something.  I'm talking single player stuff, not multiplayer.  In the hands of a PW admin it's a very different story since, like you said, they can enable/disable different things and all of the new stuff is EXPECTED and thus can be balanced around.

WebShaman wrote...

Strange is, most "accept" the CEP - which is a hak.  So why is the PRC such a big deal here?

CEP is used for tilesets/item looks/models.  Adding CEP to a single player game doesn't change anything that I can think of off-hand though maybe there are some minor differences cosmestically or something.

WebShaman wrote...

It ADDS to the game.  In my book, that is never bad.

If the PRC added a new "Shaman" class which had the following features...

d10 HP due to being a barbarian's kin but slightly less tough
Full BAB progression
Light Armor proficiency
Level 9 arcane spontaneous spellcasting that ignores spell failure from light armor and shields

Would you still say it's never bad?

You're basically getting a lightly armored sorcerer who can ignore spell failure with twice the BAB and about twice the HP.