1033 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

I am disappointed to see so much opposition to Rassler's initial plan.

Mages on the inside. Isolated. Doing whatever it is Mages do.

Templars on the outside. Surrounding the Circles. With complete control over all entrances and exits. With complete control over all imports. Like food and water.

I don't see how this could go wrong.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

I am disappointed to see so much opposition to Rassler's initial plan.

Mages on the inside. Isolated. Doing whatever it is Mages do.

Templars on the outside. Surrounding the Circles. With complete control over all entrances and exits. With complete control over all imports. Like food and water.

I don't see how this could go wrong.

Only you could make that sound so damn sinister.

[addiction21]

Because we so needed another Mages are perfect thread...

Well I think I only saw 3 of them on the front page filled with the same people.

[Dave of Canada]

wsandista wrote...

Paladins > All other classes > Mages.

I don't like being lawful good, though.

[The Elder King]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I agree with Veruin, MisterJB, eluvianix and league of one. The Circle system needs changes, but the templars have to stay in the tower.

Hey, I said they needed to as well, but no more than how a city guard patrols the streets of their city.

I missed you, Sorry.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


While true, another part of human nature is self-preservation. If you were a mage and wanted to create Second Tevinter, you would be hunted down for it. Remember, the mage-hunting Templars still exist and the majority of mages do not like the few who want what you think they want.

As for the Blood Magic, you mean the school of magic even the Circle forbids studying and if you are caught doing so you are killed or turned Tranquil?

Well it isn't not that you are declare that you are creating second tevinter empire... it will just happen unnoticed when mages will grow and grow in society.If mages want win they pretty would have face them before not after then path is open. And i don't see majority of mages who won't like making their life better crap i doubt that even hald mages will go against at best most will be indifferent and new magisters start their plans...

Yep but pretty much it is hate card for most of thedas take it everyone will hate you but still mages love reach for that card...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 03 février 2014 - 06:10 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@hhh89: That's fine. My post was during one of Kommandor's...sessions.

@Kommandor: I'd like to reply to you on this subject since you seem not to be completely full of paranoia and prejudice, but you need to be clearer. I at best got a vague sense of what you're trying to say, but I'd rather not try to reply to it in case I mistook your intent.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 03 février 2014 - 06:13 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

@hhh89: That's fine. My post was during one of Kommandor's...sessions.

@Kommandor: I'd like to reply to you on this subject since you seem not to be completely full of paranoia and prejudice, but you need to be clearer. I at best got a vague sense of what you're trying to say, but I'd rather not try to reply to it in case I mistook your intent.

My point was that creating second tevinter empire is inevitable if mages will be free as well like non-mages taking advantage that they have control over mages.If mages want win they need defeat templars otherwise they won't and then they will have go through problems with non-mages who won't like then if that will happen then mages will want more "because why i have to be equal to non-mage when i m better" . In such case mages will dominate society and well guess what then. Second that we need just 1 charismatic mage with passwords "we should get more from life" other will follow or will be just indifferent.

About blood magic , you said that mages won't move toward creating second empire because other non-mages would not like it but that same can be told about blood magic.It is hated everywhere (almost) in thedas and yet mages reach for blood magic regardless. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rassler wrote...

The whole point is Templars should not have a say in anything mages do, unless its something like summoning demons etc. They will stay out of circles, a door away not a mile, patrolling the circle frequently in not great numbers and completely ignoring what mages are doing. Also there is always room for improvement in the circles.

In other words, mages could be teaching blood magic and demon summoning, and the templars would never know given that they aren't allowed inside the tower?
That system would make a Broken Circle look like a picnic.


EDIT:
Newsflash - mages run the daily life in the circle.
Templars handle security issues.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

He's not anti-mage. He's just a rather conservative pro-Circle. You want anti-mage, Lotion Soronnar is a little bit more of what you are looking for.

Barking up the wrong tree, bub.

leaguer wrote...
All I said was the mages need to have more freedoms and work with
templars to polic them selves. I need a counter in place for how many
time I say mages and templars must work together. And the stress part is
becase the templars who are not doing their jobs correctly are
stressing the mages.

I'd say any containment system (or ANY limitation on right and freedoms) - which the Circle is - is bound to cause some resentment and stress. Life itself causes stress. It is inevitable.
The number of templars doingtheir job great or not may affect the frequency of resentment and stress, but even in a hypothetical perfect Circle, where all tempalrs are great, you will still have mages that will resent it.

In ohter words, it is liek crime - it will always be there no matter what you do. You can try different approaches to try and reduce the frequency, but you will never get rid of it completely.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...
How would having mages work with templars that way mean that? That's like saying elves can't be guards because they are all thieves.

Hm... let's see.

Mages and tempalrs face an abomination, a demon posseses the mage and now tempalrs have to deal with 2 abominations? Abominations love to make more abominations.

Very few mages would be trusted enough to accompany templars - and those would generally be older ones, better suited to teaching.

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Rassler wrote...

The whole point is Templars should not have a say in anything mages do, unless its something like summoning demons etc. They will stay out of circles, a door away not a mile, patrolling the circle frequently in not great numbers and completely ignoring what mages are doing. Also there is always room for improvement in the circles.

In other words, mages could be teaching blood magic and demon summoning, and the templars would never know given that they aren't allowed inside the tower?
That system would make a Broken Circle look like a picnic.


EDIT:
Newsflash - mages run the daily life in the circle.
Templars handle security issues.

Stop being ridicoulous, this is beneath you. You know damn well that I did not meant that. The Templars are allowed inside tower only if something wrong is going on otherwise there will be normal patrols to watch it. They will stop any signs of demons or blood magic and other sinister things but they have no say in how the cricle works.For example mages can decide their families are allowed to visit them frequently. All the risk is and freedom are on their shoulders.

Also in broken circle Templars exactly worked as I mentioned. Locked the mages in and waited for reinforcement to take the tower back. They being inside at first meant nothing.

Also isn't this the 20th time or so you are using that news reference? Its getting old, stop.

Modifié par Rassler, 03 février 2014 - 08:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...
She's not unlike Annie.  Weren't you telling me to leave her alone because she's had a hard life? 

How dare you compare her to Annie...They might be similar, but let me tell you, I have never felt such unholy rage compared to what I feel towards Adrian.

Annie killed many good poeple. Including Petra.
She has no sympathy from me.
Levi cutting her up and Eren crushing her skull where the best moments in the entire Anime.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
My point was that creating second tevinter empire is inevitable if mages will be free as well like non-mages taking advantage that they have control over mages.If mages want win they need defeat templars otherwise they won't and then they will have go through problems with non-mages who won't like then if that will happen then mages will want more "because why i have to be equal to non-mage when i m better" . In such case mages will dominate society and well guess what then. Second that we need just 1 charismatic mage with passwords "we should get more from life" other will follow or will be just indifferent.

About blood magic , you said that mages won't move toward creating second empire because other non-mages would not like it but that same can be told about blood magic.It is hated everywhere (almost) in thedas and yet mages reach for blood magic regardless. 

If left completely unsupervised, the possibility does exist, yes. Very remote, but not impossible. But most here are arguing that mages just have more freedom than they had, not complete freedom with no supervision or restrictions at all. Even nonmages have to follow laws. Same with mages. And if one mage wants that, a single mage is easily taken care of as you yourself have said numerous times. And with the lesser restrictions, most mages have what they want and thus won't support those who want a Second Tevinter. And by your argument all we need is one charismatic mage that says that trying to make a second Tevinter is a terrible mistake and they'll follow them just as easily as the egomaniac.

As for Blood Magic use, it's hard for them to not know about it with how often it is used as an excuse to keep them subjugated like prisoners. Learning the actual art of blood magic is a lot harder and rarer than hearing about it. And the mages who have used blood magic so far are the occasional egomaniacs but mostly is used as a last defense against those about to do harm to the mage or someone important to the mage, such as the few mages in Kirkwall Circle who did after Meredith initiated the Right of Annulment on an innocent Circle or even Jowan after his lover Lily was about to be carted away.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Banxey2 wrote...
4. Not all apostates are Malificar. Some are capable of living outside of the circle within Andrastan laws while policing themselves (Mages Collective).

And how does the mage collective deal with their problems?
Hireing ureliable mercenaries. Adds.
I just don't see the Mage Collective system as viable.

6. Dairsmuid was essentially out of Chantry control, it is also the capital of Rivain. Yet you never heard of them having any problem until a bunch of Templars decided to kill them all.

Yes, because they were practicing mass possesion.
This is what happens when you give mages too much freedom.

9. Telling a group of adults that you don't trust them to police themselves within their own home is kind of ridiculous. I realise there needs to be some form of cooperation between the Templars, Chantry, and Circle. But I don't believe they need to be watched over 24/7 by armed men in plate. 

These adults wield powers unlike any other and are coveted by demons.
Damn right you dont' trust them to police themselves.
You cannot even trust them that they are themselves, rather than being a flesh puppet for a demon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
And with the lesser restrictions, most mages have what they want and thus won't support those who want a Second Tevinter.

you cna never have enough. Mages will always have to hame more restriction placed on them, and those who have more restriction will always want less.
So you will always have mages who will support a "Second Tevinter".

And the mages who have used blood magic so far are the occasional egomaniacs but mostly is used as a last defense against those about to do harm to the mage or someone important to the mage, such as the few mages in Kirkwall Circle who did after Meredith initiated the Right of Annulment on an innocent Circle or even Jowan after his lover Lily was about to be carted away.

Innocent my ass.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
And with the lesser restrictions, most mages have what they want and thus won't support those who want a Second Tevinter.

you cna never have enough. Mages will always have to hame more restriction placed on them, and those who have more restriction will always want less.
So you will always have mages who will support a "Second Tevinter".

And the mages who have used blood magic so far are the occasional egomaniacs but mostly is used as a last defense against those about to do harm to the mage or someone important to the mage, such as the few mages in Kirkwall Circle who did after Meredith initiated the Right of Annulment on an innocent Circle or even Jowan after his lover Lily was about to be carted away.

Innocent my ass.

1. Thus the continual need of the Templars. As I said, more freedom =/= unlimited freedom. 

2. So what, every mage in the Kirkwall Circle were up to nefarious plot? Plus Meredith enacted the RoA due to the descruction of the Chantry, a crime that the Circle had absolutely nothing to do with. Thus, they were innocent of the charges laid against them by Meredith.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 03 février 2014 - 10:26 .

[The Elder King]

@LDS Darth Revan: I don't think Lotion thinks Meredith's reason to annull the Circle for Anders' actions was right. He probably thinks the Circle needed to be Annulled even before Anders' bombing attack.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

@LDS Darth Revan: I don't think Lotion thinks Meredith's reason to annull the Circle for Anders' actions was right. He probably thinks the Circle needed to be Annulled even before Anders' bombing attack.

You are probably right.

[Mistress9Nine]

And the mages who have used blood magic so far are the occasional egomaniacs but mostly is used as a last defense against those about to do harm to the mage or someone important to the mage, such as the few mages in Kirkwall Circle who did after Meredith initiated the Right of Annulment on an innocent Circle or even Jowan after his lover Lily was about to be carted away.

I think Blood Magic extremely departed from its DA:O roots. IMO it was to be assumed that the accusations against Jowna were true, that he was sneaking around practicing and studying blood magic way before the Lily incident. That's why blood magic wasn't so prevelent in DA:O, because mages didn't have access to it. Possession was a way higher danger factor.

However in DA2 they made it seem like all it took to be a blood mage is to get a papercut and BOOM you are murdering villain right that second. For me, that destroyed the image of blood magic being something sinister and unreachable because any mage could use it and turn to it in a spur of a moment decision. I mean obviously if your life was in danger you would do anything to survive, so if that means cutting my hand for more powerful spells, so be it.

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 03 février 2014 - 11:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
2. So what, every mage in the Kirkwall Circle were up to nefarious plot? Plus Meredith enacted the RoA due to the descruction of the Chantry, a crime that the Circle had absolutely nothing to do with. Thus, they were innocent of the charges laid against them by Meredith.

Innocent of the specific charge Meredith brought forth, but not innocent in general.
The Circle really was a mess, altough it might have still been possible to save it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

hhh89 wrote...

@LDS Darth Revan: I don't think Lotion thinks Meredith's reason to annull the Circle for Anders' actions was right. He probably thinks the Circle needed to be Annulled even before Anders' bombing attack.

Well, some think it was rife for Annulment.

IIRC, didn't Meredith ask for a RoA before? And I'm sure there are plenty of NPC's agreeing with her. I've seen people on the forums argue that the Circle was irrecoverable and best purged.

Of course, the issue is subjective and based mostly on incomplete data, so it's hard to tell.

For the record: I think the Circle could have been saved and the RoA was premature.

[Ieldra]

@OP:

I am pro-mage. Very much so. I respect Fiona's magical competence. My Wardens also appreciate that she found a way to cure the Taint.

Yet, Fiona is completely unfit to be a leader of any kind. She's too emotional, and emotional in an unbalanced way. I have no idea who had the insane idea of making her Grand Enchantress, a position which is about politics rather than magical expertise. The best she'll ever be is a figurehead to unify the mages, but Maker help all the mages if she'll ever have to make real decisions.

[HiroVoid]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
My point was that creating second tevinter empire is inevitable if mages will be free as well like non-mages taking advantage that they have control over mages.If mages want win they need defeat templars otherwise they won't and then they will have go through problems with non-mages who won't like then if that will happen then mages will want more "because why i have to be equal to non-mage when i m better" . In such case mages will dominate society and well guess what then. Second that we need just 1 charismatic mage with passwords "we should get more from life" other will follow or will be just indifferent.

About blood magic , you said that mages won't move toward creating second empire because other non-mages would not like it but that same can be told about blood magic.It is hated everywhere (almost) in thedas and yet mages reach for blood magic regardless. 

If left completely unsupervised, the possibility does exist, yes. Very remote, but not impossible. But most here are arguing that mages just have more freedom than they had, not complete freedom with no supervision or restrictions at all. Even nonmages have to follow laws. Same with mages. And if one mage wants that, a single mage is easily taken care of as you yourself have said numerous times. And with the lesser restrictions, most mages have what they want and thus won't support those who want a Second Tevinter. And by your argument all we need is one charismatic mage that says that trying to make a second Tevinter is a terrible mistake and they'll follow them just as easily as the egomaniac.

As for Blood Magic use, it's hard for them to not know about it with how often it is used as an excuse to keep them subjugated like prisoners. Learning the actual art of blood magic is a lot harder and rarer than hearing about it. And the mages who have used blood magic so far are the occasional egomaniacs but mostly is used as a last defense against those about to do harm to the mage or someone important to the mage, such as the few mages in Kirkwall Circle who did after Meredith initiated the Right of Annulment on an innocent Circle or even Jowan after his lover Lily was about to be carted away.

If they used blood magic, doesn't that mean they were practicing it?

[Lulupab]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:

I am pro-mage. Very much so. I respect Fiona's magical competence. My Wardens also appreciate that she found a way to cure the Taint.

Yet, Fiona is completely unfit to be a leader of any kind. She's too emotional, and emotional in an unbalanced way. I have no idea who had the insane idea of making her Grand Enchantress, a position which is about politics rather than magical expertise. The best she'll ever be is a figurehead to unify the mages, but Maker help all the mages if she'll ever have to make real decisions.

Well as grand enchantress she will be the default leader of mage rebellion unless devs kill her to be replaced by someone else or a similar event that makes someone take her place. For now she is the leader.

She is not just emotional about the war, she gives her full attention to anything she is taking part in. So far she has been relentness in pretty much anything she has done. She was emotional about it and never gave up when it counted.

A war needs people like her. Her ruthlessness is matched by Templars who will do anything to bring mages back under their chain again.