1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

I can't really argue with you over things I have no in-world confirmation on, but my view is that religions don't tend to be controlled like armies. The Divine serves a function similar to a Catholic Pope, if some priests in the clergy denounce him will all the millions of people who travel to Vatican City, or worship him across the world believe it? I doubt it. People just don't function that way.

You don't know history much, do you?

Schisms have been caused by people with far less clout than Lambert and popes have been assasinated.

That is true but that doesn't mean anyone was successful in anyway to harm the authority of the pope and Vatican. Vatican and the pope have ruled the catholic community since their very existence. 

If the Divine announces the Templars and Seekers who break away from chantry are heretics then the people will believe the Divine and cerberus treatment awaits for those heretics. There are still plenty of loyal Templars or Seekers with Cassandra being one of them.

Modifié par Rassler, 04 février 2014 - 08:12 .

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote..

If the Divine announces the Templars and Seekers who break away from chantry are heretics then the people will believe the Divine and cerberus treatment awaits for those heretics. There are still plenty of loyal Templars or Seekers with Cassandra being one of them.

Where did you get that there 'plently' of templars and Seekers loyal to the divine? We saw a bunch of seeker, but we don't know how many they are, and we saw no templars. 
The Divine's goal seems to recompose the fractured with the mages and templars, not to go against one of those groups. And she can declare mages heretics as well, since both groups separated themselves from the Chantry. But I doubt she'd, because both groups have the right to separate themselves from the Chantry. 
And we have no clue about people's opinion on the Chantry after the last events.
As for your other post, fire is Adrian's speciality. 

Modifié par hhh89, 04 février 2014 - 09:11 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Mages in nutshell:

I can't tell if this is intended as an insult or a compliment since that looks awesome. Smart too, since a tightened belt is more than enough to stop an alligator from opening its jaws. You go Doreen.

[The Elder King]

@LDS Darth Revan: while the method of control the alligator is smart, I'd say it'a really dangerous for a child to be in that position.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

@LDS Darth Revan: while the method of control the alligator is smart, I'd say it'a really dangerous for a child to be in that position.

Oh I know that, but still it's not like she is alone. There's at least one adult there taking the picture. But yes, no matter what it is a wild animal and care should be taken when handling one.

Hmm, perhaps it is a metaphor. The mages are the alligator, Doreen is the population of Thedas, and the photographer is the Templars.

...

Now I want alligator mounts for Inquisition.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

Rassler wrote..

If the Divine announces the Templars and Seekers who break away from chantry are heretics then the people will believe the Divine and cerberus treatment awaits for those heretics. There are still plenty of loyal Templars or Seekers with Cassandra being one of them.

Where did you get that there 'plently' of templars and Seekers loyal to the divine? We saw a bunch of seeker, but we don't know how many they are, and we saw no templars. 
The Divine's goal seems to recompose the fractured with the mages and templars, not to go against one of those groups. And she can declare mages heretics as well, since both groups separated themselves from the Chantry. But I doubt she'd, because both groups have the right to separate themselves from the Chantry. 
And we have no clue about people's opinion on the Chantry after the last events.
As for your other post, fire is Adrian's speciality. 

At this point pretty much anything is speculation but I thought the inquisition army comes from Seekers and Templars who did not went rouge. I mean where else could they come from? Cassandra was leading them right?

[Gregolian]

I think her ideas are good but she is a bit... well... rash... too quick on the trigger perhaps is a better way of saying it.

I DO think however she SHOULD come clean to Alistair at some point. IF she is his mother... which throws the whole Goldanna thing into a weird tailspin.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: the only thing we know is that the Inquisition's soldiers swore an oath to the Inquisitor. We don't know if the first recruits in the Inquisition are templars and Seekers (I have my doubts on this, the only because the Inquisition is supposed to be indipendant for the Chantry, but because the soldiers in the demo didn't strike to me as well-trained as former templars and Seekers should be). Plus, even in the case the Chantry still has a good number of templars and Seekers, I doubt they'd give all of them to the Inquisition.
The fact that Cassandra leads them in battle is irrelevant. We don't know where that scene happens in the game. We know, howewer, that Cassandra is the one of the first to join the Inquisition, so it makes sense that she can be in a commanding position.
As from where they could come from, it'd depend on how the story works. We don't know how and when the inquisiton is formed and when the Inquisitor gains his first soldiers.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 février 2014 - 10:31 .

[superdeathdealer14]

Ser-pounce-a-lot gave me some good advice, I hope you guys find this helpful.

Modifié par superdeathdealer14, 04 février 2014 - 10:37 .

[Banxey]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Is he?
They don't have the capability to safely deal with abominations and blood mages, that's hte point.

I never said it was a perfect system, even so how do you know they can't? The dialogue wasn't "Can you help us deal with this because we can't." It was "We have some quests for discreet and skillful people." Are mages incapable of being discreet or skillful?

ALL female mages were allowing fade entites to posses them. Considering a danger even one such possesion presents, I'm surprised they were no annuled a long time ago...and that they managed to keep the scale of possesions hidden for so long.

I'm curious to know where you read all female mages. I haven't read anything that suggests that. TWoT says that Seers take apprentices. It doesn't say the train them all. Either way, you'll have to excuse me for thinking that people who have been practicing these traditions for millennia with little fanfare might have a better grasp on the dangers of what they're doing than you do.

Or maybe there is an undead army of Rivaini abominations living somewhere in the deep roads.

It's not. Mages are living portals to the Fade. Mages are demon bait.
Demons covet mages above all other hosts. It's in the codex.

Here's one thing we agree on. Mages are demon bait. I don't agree that demons can just force themselves into any mage, however. Is it possible with weak mages, sure. But the way you say it makes it sound like will and strength has nothing to do with it. Frankly, if demons can possess all mages at the drop of a hat, there is no point to the Templars. It's an automatic game over.

Willingly? No, demons can forcefully posses.
It is enough that ONE powerfull demon crosses. A single powerfull abomination can start a domino effect.
Look at Uldred.

The veil was thin in the tower after the slaughter. I believe Morrigan comments on it. There's no way to know how long it took for those mages to become abominations. Uldred had days to work on them. It seems to me the damage was due to the Templars being unprepared. Perhaps the mages would have done better if they knew their security would fail, perhaps not. The point is that you can't say it was a domino effect when the damage we witness is the result of people being trapped and tortured in the tower for days.

I'm actually not sure why the Chantry doesn't insist on the Litany of Adralla being the first thing every mage learns, but apparently that's an oversight.

Neither would I. And that's not why people condemn them.
They condemn them because they are walking dangers wether they want it or not. The personality of a mages has precious little to do with it

Their will does though. Writing off an entire group of people because of something they might do is just too much for me to stomach, no matter how dangerous they're capable of being.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't know history much, do you?

Schisms have been caused by people with far less clout than Lambert and popes have been assasinated.

A schizm isn't an absolute, I said will all the people. I also said that I didn't know the numbers and wasn't going to speculate. And I never said that I thought she wouldn't have problems. What I did say was I didn't think she was stupid or powerless.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

An Exalted March against the independent Circle of Orzammar, but the ramifications of the Magi Boon are never properly addressed for Ferelden. I'm also not sure why Fiona should work with Justina when the Chantry has lost control of their militant arm.

To pick up the pieces of the world once the fighting ceases?

Given that the chantry is not, first and foremost, an army the loss of their militant arm will not on it's own render them an insignificant political force. As such, unless the mages intend to wage war on the rets of Thedas once they no longer fight the templars... working with Justinia (or her successor) will eventually be a neccessity. If only just to figure out what place mages will have in southern thedas.

The Chantry spent a millennia vilifying mages in the name of their religion; their religious rhetoric has already spread throughout the Andrastians of Thedas long before the Mage-Templar War erupted. I'm not of the opinion that appeasement or compromise is necessary if the mages defeat the templars, which isn't as impossible as some here make it seem when you consider the role the Circles played against the Dales, the darkspawn during the Blights, and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. The idea that the mages would automatically be incompetent during a war is more than a little ludicrious.

I hope that Fiona doesn't bend knee to Justina or the Chantry of Andraste.

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry spent a millennia vilifying mages in the name of their religion; their religious rhetoric has already spread throughout the Andrastians of Thedas long before the Mage-Templar War erupted. I'm not of the opinion that appeasement or compromise is necessary if the mages defeat the templars, which isn't as impossible as some here make it seem when you consider the role the Circles played against the Dales, the darkspawn during the Blights, and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. The idea that the mages would automatically be incompetent during a war is more than a little ludicrious.

I hope that Fiona doesn't bend knee to Justina or the Chantry of Andraste.

Why is it that you always assume compromise and diplomacy equals submission?  They are completely different things.  In fact, being in a position to actively compromise means that you are, by default, not submitting.

[The Elder King]

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 février 2014 - 03:50 .

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach.

Adding on to this:

The mages are in a situation where a Lucrosian mind-set is absolutely required. The mages need land to house non-combatants like apprentices not trained, children and possibly tranquil, food to sustain themselves, money for material supplies, and lyrium to do any rituals if they wish to avoid the stigma of blood magic. Without lyrium, many mages will become blood mages simply out of a lack of supply of lyrium, and if that happens then the entire mage rebellion would have a considerably harder time appealing to the masses that their side is right.

That means the mages as a whole have to organize and not remain in their fraternities, sign trade contracts and make agreements with freeholders, nobles and even royalty just so they can sustain themselves. They, or whatever country houses them, would have to make deals with the dwarves to go around the Chantry's monopoly on lyrium and when taken into account, all these things will bring a pretty high bill, and the mages don't exactly have a stable source of income at present.

But once they are secure in that way, they should have a much easier time in the war. I already have a sound strategy for dealing with rogue templars. Hit their lyrium stores and supply lines. This will make the templars start going insane for the loss of their 'fix.' This'll force them to more and more extreme actions, unless the choose to return to the Chantry then so be it, but if the resort to pillaging and raping across Thedas to gather supplies or the money to buy their lyrium, that can be used to turn the populace just as against the templars as they have been taught to be against the mages. 

As the templars lose popularity, and mages continually use their magic to help whatever communities they live in, the mages will be seen as the lesser of two evils, if evil at all as was the case with those Ferelden refugees willing to fight and die to protect Anders, and the mages will be getting aid, whether material or miltary from the very people the rogue templars alienate through their own extremism. 

[dragonflight288]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Kaiser Arian wrote...

Mages in nutshell:

I can't tell if this is intended as an insult or a compliment since that looks awesome. Smart too, since a tightened belt is more than enough to stop an alligator from opening its jaws. You go Doreen.

That's a friggin awesome picture!

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach.

Adding on to this:

The mages are in a situation where a Lucrosian mind-set is absolutely required. The mages need land to house non-combatants like apprentices not trained, children and possibly tranquil, food to sustain themselves, money for material supplies, and lyrium to do any rituals if they wish to avoid the stigma of blood magic. Without lyrium, many mages will become blood mages simply out of a lack of supply of lyrium, and if that happens then the entire mage rebellion would have a considerably harder time appealing to the masses that their side is right.

That means the mages as a whole have to organize and not remain in their fraternities, sign trade contracts and make agreements with freeholders, nobles and even royalty just so they can sustain themselves. They, or whatever country houses them, would have to make deals with the dwarves to go around the Chantry's monopoly on lyrium and when taken into account, all these things will bring a pretty high bill, and the mages don't exactly have a stable source of income at present.

But once they are secure in that way, they should have a much easier time in the war. I already have a sound strategy for dealing with rogue templars. Hit their lyrium stores and supply lines. This will make the templars start going insane for the loss of their 'fix.' This'll force them to more and more extreme actions, unless the choose to return to the Chantry then so be it, but if the resort to pillaging and raping across Thedas to gather supplies or the money to buy their lyrium, that can be used to turn the populace just as against the templars as they have been taught to be against the mages. 

As the templars lose popularity, and mages continually use their magic to help whatever communities they live in, the mages will be seen as the lesser of two evils, if evil at all as was the case with those Ferelden refugees willing to fight and die to protect Anders, and the mages will be getting aid, whether material or miltary from the very people the rogue templars alienate through their own extremism. 

A rather naive mindset still less than many pro-mages love present.Lucroasian mind-set is just slower way to create second tevinter empire and that mindset even more fits to tevinter than libertarians so it is even more likely.As far im only impressed by libertarians , lucroasians and isolationists.Why because frist try make their life better and can fight for that (even if im anti-mage but for that same reason why they fight) ,second because of that same reason but more in economical way than by brutal force , and third group because they see that they never never will be accepted by non-mages and actually not so bad idea leaving societies that won't accept them and find own place to improve their life.They have of course flaws but i would have to expand that topic to point them.

Another matter is blood magic that you see as something bad for mages but i would say that it is their strength even weak mages become powerful with that (jowan) and normal mage is hardly chalange for templar or just trained warrior (unless they fight companion or protagonist) when jowan just knocked down templars , knight commander and first enchanter thanks to blood magic.As i said blood magic or not non-mages won't accept them for good damn reason to be honest and here always we will have obstacle that we can't avoid or pass it is abomnation problem so it won't like black and white peoples (yet racism still exists).So this is reason why mages and non-mages won't be able to coexist  because of that obstacle.  

About templars are we talking about red templars or normal templars.Whether you think that templars are heroes or not or even villains most peoples in thedas thinks that templars are heroes and to be honest in worst case they will be treated as a lesser evil comparing to mages for many reasons but i will describe only one here templars never never will become omnicidal maniac (mages often end as one) and i doubt that red templars will be treated as normal templars and to be honest templar will never abuse non-mage becuse they control only mages and mostly are outside non-mage life. 

And pretty much sure that many peoples hate mages more certainly than likes them templars have favorable for non-mages goal because they are promise of protaction when it comes about dealing with magic so many may support them with dotations because of that so they can afford lyrium. 

[LobselVith8]

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry spent a millennia vilifying mages in the name of their religion; their religious rhetoric has already spread throughout the Andrastians of Thedas long before the Mage-Templar War erupted. I'm not of the opinion that appeasement or compromise is necessary if the mages defeat the templars, which isn't as impossible as some here make it seem when you consider the role the Circles played against the Dales, the darkspawn during the Blights, and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. The idea that the mages would automatically be incompetent during a war is more than a little ludicrious.

I hope that Fiona doesn't bend knee to Justina or the Chantry of Andraste. 

Why is it that you always assume compromise and diplomacy equals submission?  They are completely different things.  In fact, being in a position to actively compromise means that you are, by default, not submitting. 

The history of the Andrastian Chantry is my answer to your initial question. Overall, my opinion on the matter has to do with my complete lack of trust in the Chantry of Andraste.

[Heimdall]

Rassler wrote...

That is true but that doesn't mean anyone was successful in anyway to harm the authority of the pope and Vatican. Vatican and the pope have ruled the catholic community since their very existence. 

You don't know much about church history then.  During the medieval era, kings and bishops generally agreed that the Pope was an important guy, but the actual extent of his authority was a matter of constant contention.  The Church was far from the monolithic construct people paint it as these days and religious authority was highly localized.

[Hellion Rex]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry spent a millennia vilifying mages in the name of their religion; their religious rhetoric has already spread throughout the Andrastians of Thedas long before the Mage-Templar War erupted. I'm not of the opinion that appeasement or compromise is necessary if the mages defeat the templars, which isn't as impossible as some here make it seem when you consider the role the Circles played against the Dales, the darkspawn during the Blights, and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. The idea that the mages would automatically be incompetent during a war is more than a little ludicrious.

I hope that Fiona doesn't bend knee to Justina or the Chantry of Andraste. 

Why is it that you always assume compromise and diplomacy equals submission?  They are completely different things.  In fact, being in a position to actively compromise means that you are, by default, not submitting. 

The history of the Andrastian Chantry is my answer to your initial question. Overall, my opinion on the matter has to do with my complete lack of trust in the Chantry of Andraste.

I disagree. Considering we have a clearly more progressive Divine sitting on the Sunburst Throne, you might want to recalculate that stance.

[Lulupab]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rassler wrote...

That is true but that doesn't mean anyone was successful in anyway to harm the authority of the pope and Vatican. Vatican and the pope have ruled the catholic community since their very existence. 

You don't know much about church history then.  During the medieval era, kings and bishops generally agreed that the Pope was an important guy, but the actual extent of his authority was a matter of constant contention.  The Church was far from the monolithic construct people paint it as these days and religious authority was highly localized.

So? The pope still had the power to wage crusades or excommunicate, exactly like the divine.

[LobselVith8]

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach. 

I agree that the mages could use allies, but I'm doubtful that an alliance with the Andrastian Chantry would prove beneficial in the long run. It's not as though this is the first time that mages have negotiated with the Chantry, after all, and the diplomatic approach provided the Chantry controlled Circles. Personally, I distrust the Chantry of Andraste as an organization, and I don't share the positive opinion of some here about Divine Justina V.

[Hellion Rex]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach. 

I agree that the mages could use allies, but I'm doubtful that an alliance with the Andrastian Chantry would prove beneficial in the long run. It's not as though this is the first time that mages have negotiated with the Chantry, after all, and the diplomatic approach provided the Chantry controlled Circles. Personally, I distrust the Chantry of Andraste as an organization, and I don't share the positive opinion of some here about Divine Justina V.

Mhmm, and without Justinia, the mages would not have been able to escape the White Spire, or have a mage that knows the ritual to reverse Tranquility.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@LobselVith8: making a compromise, or a treaty with the Chantry isn't necessarily bending the knee to the Divine. It's common sense that  the mages, regardless of the war with the templars, need allies,  They can try to form an alliance with the major nations of Thedas, which we don't know if they are willing to deal with the mages, expecially if they mantain an anti-Chantry approach. 

I agree that the mages could use allies, but I'm doubtful that an alliance with the Andrastian Chantry would prove beneficial in the long run. It's not as though this is the first time that mages have negotiated with the Chantry, after all, and the diplomatic approach provided the Chantry controlled Circles. Personally, I distrust the Chantry of Andraste as an organization, and I don't share the positive opinion of some here about Divine Justina V.

Mhmm, and without Justinia, the mages would not have been able to escape the White Spire, or have a mage that knows the ritual to reverse Tranquility.

I'm a little suspicious of Justinia myself, but only because her actions in Asunder seem at odds with what is said about her in DA2.  That said, I have to agree that I think ultimately that Justinia herself is an ally to the mages.  

What I question is how much practical value her support will actually mean, since the Chantry has fallen to pieces.  There's almost certainly a schism within the ranks of the Chantry itself, quite apart from the separation of Lambert's Templars.  Justinia simply isn't going to have the same amount of power and authority she used to.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Chantry spent a millennia vilifying mages in the name of their religion; their religious rhetoric has already spread throughout the Andrastians of Thedas long before the Mage-Templar War erupted. I'm not of the opinion that appeasement or compromise is necessary if the mages defeat the templars, which isn't as impossible as some here make it seem when you consider the role the Circles played against the Dales, the darkspawn during the Blights, and the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. The idea that the mages would automatically be incompetent during a war is more than a little ludicrious.

I hope that Fiona doesn't bend knee to Justina or the Chantry of Andraste.

All that is quite true Lobsel. Which is why the mages must work -with- the future Chantry. Not for. With.

Partly to earn their trust. Partly to be able to define their own future. But most importantly... to mold what the Chantry -will- say about them.

The mages must change the Chantry. And they will... if they try to. Not by force, but dialogue (if they use force, it will become the Chantry they absolutely don't want).

And this is important because any mage that thinks their lives will be completely independent of the Chantry is so sorely mistaken it's not even funny. The chantry is everywhere. It's legacy has shaped the entire civilisation of souther thedas. Laws. Customs. Nations. That's besides the influence of the rleigion itself.
The legacy of Andraste and her rebellion is as intertwined with what the concept of civilisation is in southern thedas is as what Rome is to western civilisation. It is, to use a poetic expression, it's soul.

And the mages can't live independently of that. Not in southern Thedas. It cannot be killed and it cannot be defeated.

Working with it is the only option. The key is to do it on your terms.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
As the templars lose popularity, and mages continually use their magic to help whatever communities they live in, the mages will be seen as the lesser of two evils, if evil at all as was the case with those Ferelden refugees willing to fight and die to protect Anders, and the mages will be getting aid, whether material or miltary from the very people the rogue templars alienate through their own extremism. 

Let me preface this by saying I do agree with your general tenor. However, I think you're overstating the importance of "the people" versus "the nobles". Having a large number of reality altering settlors with aspirations of independence setting shop on your land and subverting the people to be personally loyal to them is about as big a threat to the nobility as Thedas can have, short of out-and-out French Revolution style uprisings.