1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Rassler wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rassler wrote...

That is true but that doesn't mean anyone was successful in anyway to harm the authority of the pope and Vatican. Vatican and the pope have ruled the catholic community since their very existence. 

You don't know much about church history then.  During the medieval era, kings and bishops generally agreed that the Pope was an important guy, but the actual extent of his authority was a matter of constant contention.  The Church was far from the monolithic construct people paint it as these days and religious authority was highly localized.

So? The pope still had the power to wage crusades or excommunicate, exactly like the divine.

Excommunication was not a power unique to the Pope by an means.  Actually it was usually employed as a sentence in ecclesiastical courts held at many different levels of hierarchy.  As for the Crusades, the Pope could send out a papal bull calling for a Crusade. Respect for papal authority dwindled as the Crusades failed. In many cases after the first three crusades, especially the disastrous Fourth Crusade (Which, instead of retaking Jerusalem, sacked Constantinople without even continuing to the holy land) monarchs often ignored them and preachers had to go through a lot of trouble to convince knights to go at all as time went on.  The Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, and Ninth Crusades were initiated  by individual kings without the Pope's involvement.  Indeed, sometimes despit the Pope's attempts to impede them.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 février 2014 - 07:03 .

[TK514]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I agree that the mages could use allies, but I'm doubtful that an alliance with the Andrastian Chantry would prove beneficial in the long run. It's not as though this is the first time that mages have negotiated with the Chantry, after all, and the diplomatic approach provided the Chantry controlled Circles. Personally, I distrust the Chantry of Andraste as an organization, and I don't share the positive opinion of some here about Divine Justina V.

And when the Original Circles were formed, the Mages were negotiating from the position of former candle-lighters who threw a tantrum, which pissed off the Divine so she threw a tantrum.  The only people acting like adults were the Templars, and even from this position of weakness the Mages still managed to negotiate terms that let them live like nobility and practice Magic for hundreds of years, rather than being little better than ambulatory matches.

One assumes that this time, even though there are clearly no adults at the table as yet, the Mages would be negotiating from a position of equality, at the very least.  Clearly the current Divine is willing to take the Mages' position seriously, and it is in everyone's best interests to end this conflict as quickly as possible.  That gives the Mages bargaining power they have never had before outside of Tevinter.  Now, I personally have my doubts about the Mage leadership's competence and ability to capitalize on this opportunity, but those are individual failings, not inherent to the Mages as a group.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As the templars lose popularity, and mages continually use their magic to help whatever communities they live in, the mages will be seen as the lesser of two evils, if evil at all as was the case with those Ferelden refugees willing to fight and die to protect Anders, and the mages will be getting aid, whether material or miltary from the very people the rogue templars alienate through their own extremism. 

Let me preface this by saying I do agree with your general tenor. However, I think you're overstating the importance of "the people" versus "the nobles". Having a large number of reality altering settlors with aspirations of independence setting shop on your land and subverting the people to be personally loyal to them is about as big a threat to the nobility as Thedas can have, short of out-and-out French Revolution style uprisings. 

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

[Lulupab]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
As the templars lose popularity, and mages continually use their magic to help whatever communities they live in, the mages will be seen as the lesser of two evils, if evil at all as was the case with those Ferelden refugees willing to fight and die to protect Anders, and the mages will be getting aid, whether material or miltary from the very people the rogue templars alienate through their own extremism. 

Let me preface this by saying I do agree with your general tenor. However, I think you're overstating the importance of "the people" versus "the nobles". Having a large number of reality altering settlors with aspirations of independence setting shop on your land and subverting the people to be personally loyal to them is about as big a threat to the nobility as Thedas can have, short of out-and-out French Revolution style uprisings. 

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

Not just healers. Pro-templar minded players seem to hate Fiona as we've seen it first hand in this very thread but I have yet to see a none-templar/none-seeker to hate or hold any sort of grudge against her. She has gotten adoration from any group she was involved with. Common man, grey wardens, nobility, mages etc...

There are people in thedas who see plight of mages which means there is hope for mages.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

Not just healers. Pro-templar minded players seem to hate Fiona as we've seen it first hand in this very thread but I have yet to see a none-templar/none-seeker to hate or hold any sort of grudge against her. She has gotten adoration from any group she was involved with. Common man, grey wardens, nobility, mages etc...

There are people in thedas who see plight of mages which means there is hope for mages.

Branding everyone who doesn't like Fiona as pro-templar?

All the generalization

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Rustlers gonna rustle.

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...



Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

Well not rly Anders was companion which meant much more stronger and talented most and well ferelden peoples was desperate because they had nothing.Another matter we have one individual that is supported and entire group.The warden and hawke who were mages could gain peoples support but doesn't mean that mages get it as well , even Anders mentioned despite mage who saved world from blight that changed nothing peoples opinion about mages.And as far i remenber that hawke not refugees was protecting anders from meredith and templars.

Rassler wrote...


Not just healers. Pro-templar minded
players seem to hate Fiona as we've seen it first hand in this very
thread but I have yet to see a none-templar/none-seeker to hate or hold
any sort of grudge against her. She has gotten adoration from any group
she was involved with. Common man, grey wardens, nobility, mages etc...

There are people in thedas who see plight of mages which means there is hope for mages.

Yeah we saw they were thousands of them ups wrong group that was group of peoples who wanted kill them.
plight of mages? Crap many have own problems and many would want mages plight instead their.

Ps didn't fiona had attitude toward nobles "i hate you bastards" at least i heard that... yeah everbody loves fiona outside mages i can't see that loves and well many mages as well don't share love toward her...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Ps didn't fiona had attitude toward nobles "i hate you bastards" at least i heard that.

Having one beat and rape you as a child will tend to do that to you. Add to that human, particularly the nobles, treatment of elves in general, especially in Orlais where they were still slaves, and not surprising at all that she developed that mindset. Her time with Maric changed that though, tempering her predudice slightly.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 05 février 2014 - 07:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Banxey2 wrote...
I never said it was a perfect system, even so how do you know they can't?

Because it's shown in the way they operate.

ALL female mages were allowing fade entites to posses them. Considering a danger even one such possesion presents, I'm surprised they were no annuled a long time ago...and that they managed to keep the scale of possesions hidden for so long.

I'm curious to know where you read all female mages. I haven't read anything that suggests that.

There was a letter from a Seeker concerning the investigation of the Circle. Something about him arriving there and being shocked after finding out that they practice possesion by all femlaes in the Cicle.

TWoT says that Seers take apprentices. It doesn't say the train them all. Either way, you'll have to excuse me for thinking that people who have been practicing these traditions for millennia with little fanfare might have a better grasp on the dangers of what they're doing than you do.

Tell that to the magisters. They have been practicing magic for millenia. But of course, mages know ALL there is to know about the Fade and abominations, right?

It's not. Mages are living portals to the Fade. Mages are demon bait.
Demons covet mages above all other hosts. It's in the codex.

Here's one thing we agree on. Mages are demon bait. I don't agree that demons can just force themselves into any mage, however. Is it possible with weak mages, sure. But the way you say it makes it sound like will and strength has nothing to do with it. Frankly, if demons can possess all mages at the drop of a hat, there is no point to the Templars. It's an automatic game over.

"Weakness" is relative and no one is strong forever. We all have our ups an down, our good days and bad days, and even strong mages will have their moments of weakness.
So yes, a demon could posses a "strong" mage under the right circumstances. Either by force or by tricking him.

The veil was thin in the tower after the slaughter. I believe Morrigan comments on it. There's no way to know how long it took for those mages to become abominations. Uldred had days to work on them. It seems to me the damage was due to the Templars being unprepared. Perhaps the mages would have done better if they knew their security would fail, perhaps not. The point is that you can't say it was a domino effect when the damage we witness is the result of people being trapped and tortured in the tower for days.

It was Uldred that tore the veil to bring in more demons in - this we are told specificly. So yes, started by a single mage.
How many mages have fallen and how fast, we do not know. The exact number and timing is not there, but fact is, abominations seek to make more abominations.

Neither would I. And that's not why people condemn them.
They condemn them because they are walking dangers wether they want it or not. The personality of a mages has precious little to do with it

Their will does though. Writing off an entire group of people because of something they might do is just too much for me to stomach, no matter how dangerous they're capable of being.

The reason they are in the tower is precisely because they aren't being written off. If that was the case, they would be given the qunari treatment or killed.

Intentions matter little in the end.

A schizm isn't an absolute, I said will all the people.

A useless statement. When have ever ALL people universally agreed to something?

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...
I disagree. Considering we have a clearly more progressive Divine sitting on the Sunburst Throne, you might want to recalculate that stance.

I dislike using that word. Progressive.
More like idiot.

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man.

I wonder how long that support would last if Anders had gone full Vengance in front of those poeple.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
I disagree. Considering we have a clearly more progressive Divine sitting on the Sunburst Throne, you might want to recalculate that stance.

I dislike using that word. Progressive.
More like idiot.

And yet, she managed to outmaneuver the Templar Order entirely in this regard.
Regardless, your Chantry is the one that put her on the throne after that last pushover Divine. You can hardly blame us for taking full advantage of her help. But nonetheless, I don't trust her. She is playing a very dangerous Game.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: I'm not pro-templar, and I don't hate Fiona, but I don't exactly like her or trust her.

[Banxey]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Because it's shown in the way they operate.

You don't know the specifics. I believe you said something similar to me in an earlier post. But of course, feel free to speculate.

There was a letter from a Seeker concerning the investigation of the Circle. Something about him arriving there and being shocked after finding out that they practice possesion by all femlaes in the Cicle.

David Gaider said we weren't supposed to take letters in the codex at face value. So I'll stick with TWoT.

Tell that to the magisters. They have been practicing magic for millenia. But of course, mages know ALL there is to know about the Fade and abominations, right?

Considering we haven't had much contact with mages from Tevinter or Rivain I can't say what they know. Although you apparently know.

"Weakness" is relative and no one is strong forever. We all have our ups an down, our good days and bad days, and even strong mages will have their moments of weakness. So yes, a demon could posses a "strong" mage under the right circumstances. Either by force or by tricking him.

A man could have a bad day even though he has been a model citizen his whole life and go on a murder spree. Lock up all men.

It was Uldred that tore the veil to bring in more demons in - this we are told specificly. So yes, started by a single mage.How many mages have fallen and how fast, we do not know. The exact number and timing is not there, but fact is, abominations seek to make more abominations.

Uldred tearing the veil wasn't in question, what is in question is your domino effect and what happened to the majority of the mages. Were they all made abominations? No. Were some simply killed. Yes. Were there demons in the tower who weren't in possession of bodies while mages were still alive? Yes. Did it take days for Uldred to torture some mages in the Harrowing chamber enough for them to submit. Yes. But let's kill them all just to be sure. 

The reason they are in the tower is precisely because they aren't being written off. If that was the case, they would be given the qunari treatment or killed.

The reason they're in the tower is because people are afraid of them. Locking people away so the populace doesn't have to deal with the problem is writing someone off. 

Intentions matter little in the end.

You could say the same thing about a lot of Templars. Of course a Templar who gives a mage the option of laying down and dying or surrendering to self preservation is a hero.

A useless statement. When have ever ALL people universally agreed to something?

Uh... You read the statement I made to someone else wrong and accused me of not knowing anything about history. But thank you for agreeing with my original point.

And as much fun as I have had debating these things with you Lotion, you're a little too aggro for me. So don't bother to reply unless you absolutely need to.

[MisterJB]

Banxey2 wrote...
A man could have a bad day even though he has been a model citizen his whole life and go on a murder spree. Lock up all men.

The scale is hardly the same. If a man in Redcliff snaps, he might grab a sword and, at most, kill three or four people before everyone piles up on him and he is brought down by sheer force of numbers of a knight like Ser Perth simply disarms him.
Connor was a ten year old and he destroys Redcliff unless the PC decides to help.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, she managed to outmaneuver the Templar Order entirely in this regard.

She managed to backstab an ally who would never have expected her to be a traitor. "Outmaneuvering" or rather in this case backstabbing a man who trusts you, and has his back turned against you, is not a very challenging thing to do.

[MisterJB]

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mate stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 février 2014 - 03:19 .

[The Elder King]

To be honest, after the meeting with the divine, if I was Lambert I'd have been cautious over a possible backstab from her.

[Reaverwind]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mate stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

Fitting indeed, if true.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

[The Baconer]

In Exile wrote...
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

They could offer services to the nobility. If they play their cards right it could become a very useful partnership.

[TK514]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

Fortunately, it's relatively easy to nip in the bud in any Andrastrian society.  Simply accuse the Mages of using Blood Magic to corrupt people under the guise of "healing" them.  A couple of well timed demonstrations of people acting strangely and/or livestock dying should be enough to inflame the passions of the populace.  If some of the examples happen to be genuine, all the better.

[The Baconer]

TK514 wrote...

Fortunately, it's relatively easy to nip in the bud in any Andrastrian society.  Simply accuse the Mages of using Blood Magic to corrupt people under the guise of "healing" them.  A couple of well timed demonstrations of people acting strangely and/or livestock dying should be enough to inflame the passions of the populace.  If some of the examples happen to be genuine, all the better.

I hope we'll be able to execute some false flag operations like this.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, she managed to outmaneuver the Templar Order entirely in this regard.

She managed to backstab an ally who would never have expected her to be a traitor. "Outmaneuvering" or rather in this case backstabbing a man who trusts you, and has his back turned against you, is not a very challenging thing to do.

Backstab? In what way was she required to inform Lambert about Pharamond's experiments? She is his boss. She didn't have to tell him jack sh*t.

[Vandicus]

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

They could offer services to the nobility. If they play their cards right it could become a very useful partnership.

Funnily enough, that's how the first Tevinter Imperium became a mageocracy(it was originally ruled by mundane nobility).

[The Baconer]

eluvianix wrote...

Backstab? In what way was she required to inform Lambert about Pharamond's experiments? She is his boss. She didn't have to tell him jack sh*t.

He's probably referring to her involvement in letting the mages escape the tower and destroying their phylacteries.