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[The Baconer]

Vandicus wrote...

Funnily enough, that's how the first Tevinter Imperium became a mageocracy(it was originally ruled by mundane nobility).

I wouldn't know anything about that. It is, however, very important to learn from their mistakes.

[Lulupab]

The Baconer wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Funnily enough, that's how the first Tevinter Imperium became a mageocracy(it was originally ruled by mundane nobility).

I wouldn't know anything about that. It is, however, very important to learn from their mistakes.

Indeed. Maybe mages born to noble families can keep their status and not be a disgrace to the family.

[Hellion Rex]

Vandicus wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

They could offer services to the nobility. If they play their cards right it could become a very useful partnership.

Funnily enough, that's how the first Tevinter Imperium became a mageocracy(it was originally ruled by mundane nobility).

But neither did they have a Templar Order to balance them either.

[AresKeith]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mate stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

But she isn't really pro-mage

[Milan92]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mate stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

"Inquisitor For Pope quest activated."

[Silfren]

never mind.

Modifié par Silfren, 05 février 2014 - 06:47 .

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mages working as healers have already proven via Anders to be able to win the support of the common man. 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't think mages can't win their support. I think nobles will lose it over a concerted effort to win their support. Think about it: what is a greater danger to the nobles power bases than their land being taken away and the fealty of their people being lost? 

I see your point, but that wasn't what I was going for. 

Let's say hypothetically that Dragon's Reach in Ferelden is approached by a group of mages wanting protection from the rogue templars. In exchange for a place to live, practice their magic, train children, they in turn will offer enchanting services to that bann's armed forces and will assist the local commoners with healing. Their healing or enchanting services can then be taxed by that bann of Dragon's Reach.

It isn't really taking land away from the nobles and simply giving it to the mages, but the mages coming under the fealty of that particular lord, and offer services that lord had previously completely lacked as a result of the Circle system where the Chantry in practice controlled the mages.

I think many nobles would be on board with this.

[MisterJB]

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mage stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

But she isn't really pro-mage

She  is probably pro-Justinia before anything else; which is also probably why she doesn't appreciate Lambert and his pull with the Order; but she definitely has very strong pro-mage tendencies.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
But neither did they have a Templar Order to balance them either.

After Andraste, there was a time when normal people could take places within the Imperial Chantry and there were seats reserved for them in the Senate. There was a Templar Order at the time and the mages still took every one of those rights away.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
But neither did they have a Templar Order to balance them either.

After Andraste, there was a time when normal people could take places within the Imperial Chantry and there were seats reserved for them in the Senate. There was a Templar Order at the time and the mages still took every one of those rights away.

But you still have to account for the fact that those Templars probably couldn't neutralize magic, as well as the much higher number of probable blood mages in Tevinter at that time.

[AresKeith]

MisterJB wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Well, if the leak is to be believed, Justinia will suffer death by demon very early in the game; fitting considering her pro-mage stance; and neither side will particularly mourn her. Influencing the election of a new Divine might be one of the main quests.

But she isn't really pro-mage

She  is probably pro-Justinia before anything else; which is also probably why she doesn't appreciate Lambert and his pull with the Order; but she definitely has very strong pro-mage tendencies.

You mean her wanting to improve the Circle of Magi? or the whole thing with Leliana and the mages destroying their phylacteries?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
But you still have to account for the fact that those Templars probably couldn't neutralize magic, as well as the much higher number of probable blood mages in Tevinter at that time.

That's not really relevant. The mages didn't take power back by marching into the Senate and occupying it any more than Southern nobles keep power by being the greatest warriors in the land.
Whether Templars are capable or not of neutralizing magic should be irrelevant in the halls of the Senate but that's really now how things went.

[MisterJB]

AresKeith wrote...
You mean her wanting to improve the Circle of Magi? or the whole thing with Leliana and the mages destroying their phylacteries?

How about everything? One thing is trying to improve the Circle, but ordering Wynne to release the results to all Circles regardless of whatever is discovered and before you even have the chance to look over it and decide for yourself if this is something to be preserved is just blind faith.

And while I understand she had to show Lambert he couldn't just disobey her orders without consequences, starting a world war is absolutely ridiculous.

[The Baconer]

MisterJB wrote...
How about everything? One thing is trying to improve the Circle, but ordering Wynne to release the results to all Circles regardless of whatever is discovered and before you even have the chance to look over it and decide for yourself if this is something to be preserved is just blind faith.

^ Not to mention that a cure for the Rite of Tranquility is pretty much of no benefit to anyone.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Let's say hypothetically that Dragon's Reach in Ferelden is approached by a group of mages wanting protection from the rogue templars. In exchange for a place to live, practice their magic, train children, they in turn will offer enchanting services to that bann's armed forces and will assist the local commoners with healing.

What I'm saying is that's an incredible threat. You're seeing this as symbiotic, but the practical reality is that the mages have the upper hand (by far) in these types of arrangements. They have a monopoly on all the valuable economic activity - medicine and enchanting - which if they take away would collapse the local power base. Beyond that, they have the direct link with the people - living among them, building ties. It's exactly the thing that led to a shift from the noble class to the merchant class historically. The mages will start demanding things like proper representation for their newfound wealth, i.e., political power and not just economic power. 

It isn't really taking land away from the nobles and simply giving it to the mages, but the mages coming under the fealty of that particular lord, and offer services that lord had previously completely lacked as a result of the Circle system where the Chantry in practice controlled the mages.

"Swearing fealty" is just about power dynamics. And it's mages that have the power. 

[Hellion Rex]

The Baconer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
How about everything? One thing is trying to improve the Circle, but ordering Wynne to release the results to all Circles regardless of whatever is discovered and before you even have the chance to look over it and decide for yourself if this is something to be preserved is just blind faith.

^ Not to mention that a cure for the Rite of Tranquility is pretty much of no benefit to anyone.

Unless, you can reverse it, while still denying a mage their power.

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
How about everything? One thing is trying to improve the Circle, but ordering Wynne to release the results to all Circles regardless of whatever is discovered and before you even have the chance to look over it and decide for yourself if this is something to be preserved is just blind faith.

^ Not to mention that a cure for the Rite of Tranquility is pretty much of no benefit to anyone.

Unless, you can reverse it, while still denying a mage their power.

That would kinda oversimplfy mage-templar conflict. Just find all mages and turn them into mundanes, its not a crime because they are not losing their emotions. This can be an ending and a cliche and boring one at that.

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Let's say hypothetically that Dragon's Reach in Ferelden is approached by a group of mages wanting protection from the rogue templars. In exchange for a place to live, practice their magic, train children, they in turn will offer enchanting services to that bann's armed forces and will assist the local commoners with healing.

What I'm saying is that's an incredible threat. You're seeing this as symbiotic, but the practical reality is that the mages have the upper hand (by far) in these types of arrangements. They have a monopoly on all the valuable economic activity - medicine and enchanting - which if they take away would collapse the local power base. Beyond that, they have the direct link with the people - living among them, building ties. It's exactly the thing that led to a shift from the noble class to the merchant class historically. The mages will start demanding things like proper representation for their newfound wealth, i.e., political power and not just economic power. 

It isn't really taking land away from the nobles and simply giving it to the mages, but the mages coming under the fealty of that particular lord, and offer services that lord had previously completely lacked as a result of the Circle system where the Chantry in practice controlled the mages.

"Swearing fealty" is just about power dynamics. And it's mages that have the power. 

I think we'll have to disagree simply because mages aren't a unified people with set goals. Not just anyone signs up to be a mage because they need to earn a living or believe in what they stand for. They are individuals born with a great deal of power that they must learn to control, and their fraternities show that the mages aren't united in a single cause. You may have some mages of the Lucrosian fraternity, a few apprentices, and any children they have that the Chantry hasn't taken from them since they split come to Dragon's Reach and make the offer, while a group of Isolationists head down to the Kokari Wilds and set up shop away from everyone else, while Libertarians or Loyalists do their own thing.

Add in the economic aspects. I don't think mages will be able to control the economy. First, mages don't have the training to forge swords, make clothes...well, they may sew their own robes so they might there, and enchanting services are also really expensive. 

All enchanting is making lyrium into a rune and somehow folding that lyrium-rune into a piece of armor or a weapon. We don't get the feel for it in Origins or DA2, but the tranquil at Ostagar says this is a very time-consuming process. Taking into account the cost of lyrium and the time it takes to enchant, we are going to be looking at extremely high prices for even the simplest of enchantments, and most people won't be able to afford it, so more business will go to local blacksmiths and such who don't or can't offer such services.

Some lucrosians may be concerned about getting political power, but it's hard to do so while you're in a country that has templars who can negate magic and existing laws that say mages can't inherit a title, and this seems to be true everywhere except Tevinter.

Let me add on. Say those mages went to Waking Sea, and we know the Bann there, well her brother is a templar. She might impose far greater restrictions on the mages who come to her land. She would allow them a form of their own Circle system, but would require templars who hadn't left the Chantry to be on site, and if the mages refused then she would send those mages packing.

It all depends on the noble, the nature of the agreement and so on. Some mages would work the system, just like some nobles would. Many nobles who had such mages in their arling or whatever, would also probably try to use said mages to advance themselves in their own country. 

[dragonflight288]

Rassler wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
How about everything? One thing is trying to improve the Circle, but ordering Wynne to release the results to all Circles regardless of whatever is discovered and before you even have the chance to look over it and decide for yourself if this is something to be preserved is just blind faith.

^ Not to mention that a cure for the Rite of Tranquility is pretty much of no benefit to anyone.

Unless, you can reverse it, while still denying a mage their power.

That would kinda oversimplfy mage-templar conflict. Just find all mages and turn them into mundanes, its not a crime because they are not losing their emotions. This can be an ending and a cliche and boring one at that.

If that happened then you could say "goodbye enchantments anywhere outside of Orzammar and Tevinter." And you could also say "goodbye Grey Wardens. We no longer have mages available to prepare the Joining, so good luck Thedas with your next blight."

[The Baconer]

In Exile wrote...

It's exactly the thing that led to a shift from the noble class to the merchant class historically. The mages will start demanding things like proper representation for their newfound wealth, i.e., political power and not just economic power.

And what, exactly, makes this a threat? Bear in mind that while healing magic is definitely an irreplacable service, this notion that enchanting is a monopoly held by mages is completely artificial. Being a mage doesn't give you some intrinsic and exclusive right to employ those actually capable of fashioning enchanted items (dwarves and Tranquil), nor does it mean you automatically have some control over the trade of Lyrium.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The original magisters were the high priests of the Cult of the Old Gods, who were all blood mages. The only time nonmages could rise to positions of power in the Imperium was during the century or so after Hesserion ruled. And I think even then the Archon was a mage.

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The original magisters were the high priests of the Cult of the Old Gods, who were all blood mages. The only time nonmages could rise to positions of power in the Imperium was during the century or so after Hesserion ruled. And I think even then the Archon was a mage.

Indeed. The original leaders had been the Neromenian tribe's Dreamers, who became the high priests.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The original magisters were the high priests of the Cult of the Old Gods, who were all blood mages. The only time nonmages could rise to positions of power in the Imperium was during the century or so after Hesserion ruled. And I think even then the Archon was a mage.

Indeed. The original leaders had been the Neromenian tribe's Dreamers, who became the high priests.

Taking into account the historical and social aspects of society outside of Tevinter, adding in the templars capacity to negate magic, I think it's highly unlikely that mages will rise in political power the way they did in Tevinter. 

[Sir JK]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Taking into account the historical and social aspects of society outside of Tevinter, adding in the templars capacity to negate magic, I think it's highly unlikely that mages will rise in political power the way they did in Tevinter. 

While I am generally concerned with what mages will do after the circles end, I agree with this sentiment.

Tevinter was highly urbanised and most mages came from already entrenched families. Magic was also traditionally associated with power and the Transfigurations was primarily a mage-driven affair.

Southern Thedas is rural, not urban. Which puts emphasis on land and community, something mages have not have had much access to. Orlais is the most urban in style, but even there we're looking at a very entrenched nobility heavily based on land ownership.

There's plenty of sources of conflicts between mages and society, but they won't climb to power quite the way they did in Tevinter.

[Banxey]

MisterJB wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...
A man could have a bad day even though he has been a model citizen his whole life and go on a murder spree. Lock up all men.

The scale is hardly the same. If a man in Redcliff snaps, he might grab a sword and, at most, kill three or four people before everyone piles up on him and he is brought down by sheer force of numbers of a knight like Ser Perth simply disarms him. Connor was a ten year old and he destroys Redcliff unless the PC decides to help.

Oh, I don't disagree. Even if you were to factor in serial killers, apprehending them when identified would be less of an issue. But in either case does locking up people completely prevent either scenario from occurring? And I know you would answer that by saying it will reduce the likelihood of it happening. And I would also agree.

But the meat of the argument I was having with the other poster was, is it necessary to have all mages locked up and under constant scrutiny by Templars, regardless of who they are because they could "have a bad day?" I don't believe so, I think it makes things worse. And the risk of anything bad happening when a mage like Wynne leaves the circle, is less than the risk of having a system where it's known that a child (like Connor) is removed and isolated from his family for the rest of his life.