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[Master Warder Z_]

Banxey2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...
A man could have a bad day even though he has been a model citizen his whole life and go on a murder spree. Lock up all men.

The scale is hardly the same. If a man in Redcliff snaps, he might grab a sword and, at most, kill three or four people before everyone piles up on him and he is brought down by sheer force of numbers of a knight like Ser Perth simply disarms him. Connor was a ten year old and he destroys Redcliff unless the PC decides to help.

Oh, I don't disagree. Even if you were to factor in serial killers, apprehending them when identified would be less of an issue. But in either case does locking up people completely prevent either scenario from occurring? And I know you would answer that by saying it will reduce the likelihood of it happening. And I would also agree.

But the meat of the argument I was having with the other poster was, is it necessary to have all mages locked up and under constant scrutiny by Templars, regardless of who they are because they could "have a bad day?" I don't believe so, I think it makes things worse. And the risk of anything bad happening when a mage like Wynne leaves the circle, is less than the risk of having a system where it's known that a child (like Connor) is removed and isolated from his family for the rest of his life. 

Permenant imprisionment or Mass Execution are the only two viable stratagems when dealing with Mages in my eye.

And given there is no way to detect those with inante talent with out training at birth you must keep constant vigalance upon the world merely to keep up with the tide of Mages. Point of it is placing the majority of mages within Circles is both the only viable and feasible course for both practical and security based reasoning.

.-. That said upon a time i thought mass tranqulaity perhaps would spare the world grief but that dream burned to ash with the revealation of a cure. It's a pity too, Strip the talent and emotion from a few dozen and perhaps this little revolution never would have occured.

But it has occured and now it must be ended and the status quo restored.

[Banxey]

hhh89 wrote...
To be honest, after the meeting with the divine, if I was Lambert I'd have been cautious over a possible backstab from her.

I think he already knew her, or knew of her. He seemed to have a certain disdain for her from the outset.

The Baconer wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Backstab? In what way was she required to inform Lambert about Pharamond's experiments? She is his boss. She didn't have to tell him jack sh*t.

He's probably referring to her involvement in letting the mages escape the tower and destroying their phylacteries.

This is what I don't understand. I'm going to put aside my personal feelings and try to be diplomatic.

Justinia: Her duty is to protect the people of Thedas (and last I checked, mages were people) but also as head of the Chantry, she is charged with overseeing the Chantry's responsibilities. One of which is of course the Circle. In this scenario, she had three options.

Order Lambert to release the mages, knowing he would likely refuse. Eliminating any recourse, save forcing Templars and Seekers to pick a side at that moment and imminently put herself in danger.

Turn a blind eye to whatever Lambert had planned for the mages.

Or, finally, serve her duty to the mages, and eliminate a few mooks. As unfair as killing them may have been, she saw those mooks as negligible casualties.

Lambert: After taking over the authority and duties of the Knight Commander of the White Spire, Lambert was charged with protecting the public from magic and protecting the mages. When he learned that Justinia was allowing a group of mages to investigate a tranquil who had been cured he chose to neglect his duty to protect mages (Wynne, Rhys, and Adrian) in favor of his duty to protect (he believed) the public. And as such, he viewed those mages as negligible casualties. As unfair as it would have been to kill people who hadn't done anything wrong.

But of course, Justinia is an idiot traitor, and Lambert is a hero. OK I'm done being diplomatic. The truth is, Lambert is either a traitor or a pawn in a conspiracy against Justinia.

Rassler wrote...
That would kinda oversimplfy mage-templar conflict. Just find all mages and turn them into mundanes, its not a crime because they are not losing their emotions. This can be an ending and a cliche and boring one at that.

I think the intention wasn't to use it on all mages, but to give some the option and to take magic away from those who misused it.

Modifié par Banxey2, 05 février 2014 - 10:45 .

[cjones91]

And what if more mages are born than you can kill or lock up?Would you be willing to commit mass genocide just to feel safe and to keep the status quo?

[Banxey]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Permenant imprisionment or Mass Execution are the only two viable stratagems when dealing with Mages in my eye.

And given there is no way to detect those with inante talent with out training at birth you must keep constant vigalance upon the world merely to keep up with the tide of Mages. Point of it is placing the majority of mages within Circles is both the only viable and feasible course for both practical and security based reasoning.

.-. That said upon a time i thought mass tranqulaity perhaps would spare the world grief but that dream burned to ash with the revealation of a cure. It's a pity too, Strip the talent and emotion from a few dozen and perhaps this little revolution never would have occured.

But it has occured and now it must be ended and the status quo restored.

Fair enough, I suppose. But I don't agree with your views, obviously. But I'm curious to know how you plan to deal with the Qunari without mages, or at least an army of very resentful mages?

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

And what if more mages are born than you can kill or lock up?Would you be willing to commit mass genocide just to feel safe and to keep the status quo?

You really shouldn't ask questions you don't want the answers to.

I wouldn't be the only one within the annals of history to put the good of the people, the good of the state, nation, planet ahead of personal honor and mortality if i selected yes and i wouldn't be the only self deluded fool who put said personal traits and feelings above his people, country and planet if i said no.

.-. Ultimately? I view the continuation of the species as more important then its individual parts i suppose if that helps you at all.

So Yes if i was offered that choice and the resources to carry it out, I likely would take it to ensure peace and stability.

[Master Warder Z_]

Banxey2 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Permenant imprisionment or Mass Execution are the only two viable stratagems when dealing with Mages in my eye.

And given there is no way to detect those with inante talent with out training at birth you must keep constant vigalance upon the world merely to keep up with the tide of Mages. Point of it is placing the majority of mages within Circles is both the only viable and feasible course for both practical and security based reasoning.

.-. That said upon a time i thought mass tranqulaity perhaps would spare the world grief but that dream burned to ash with the revealation of a cure. It's a pity too, Strip the talent and emotion from a few dozen and perhaps this little revolution never would have occured.

But it has occured and now it must be ended and the status quo restored.

Fair enough, I suppose. But I don't agree with your views, obviously. But I'm curious to know how you plan to deal with the Qunari without mages, or at least an army of very resentful mages?

A good question if there ever was one.

Magic the one edge Thedas had (Besides extremely overwhelming numbers) during the Qunari Wars.

So what is the logical replacement for fireballs, lightning strikes and blasts of artic gales if not the very tools the Qunari themselves employ? Dwarves i recall had recent success with similar fissionable materials. Besides i would much prefer the restructuring of the circle to outright mass killings but the situation as it sets forces my view to be as it is obviously.

I would love to have Mages defending Humanity from the oxmen but if that cannot be then we will find another way to defeat them.  The Qunari aren't infailable nor undefeatable by the end of the previous war their Armada was crushed, their Armies bogged down on losing fronts and their Morale was plummeting quicker then a German Jew being hauled out of a Ghetto in 1938.

Point is, That while Magic played a fairly major role in the supression of the Qunari Human numbers and unification was what broke their back militarily speaking.

[cjones91]

Peace that's built on the graves of hundreds of thousands of innocents isn't the type of peace I want at all.If commiting mass genocide is peace then I want the opposite of that.

[Veruin]

cjones91 wrote...

Peace that's built on the graves of hundreds of thousands of innocents isn't the type of peace I want at all.If commiting mass genocide is peace then I want the opposite of that.

A.  So we should let suffering continue because of petty morals?

B.  You are grossly over estimating the mage population.  If there were that many, the circle would be very ineffective.

[Rinshikai10]

Getting back to the Fiona discussion I would say that out of Circle Mages, she has the most life experience. Life as a Warden would not have been easy, giving me the impression that she can make the hard decisions when they come.

[cjones91]

If you are willing to kill thousands of people just to prevent suffering then you are creating more suffering to be begin with.Day by day more children with magic are born and even Cullen worries about how the templars might not be able to catch them all,so give it a decade or so and the mage population will increase.

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...

A.  So we should let suffering continue because of petty morals?

Who's suffering? Would you be less content if the mass graves were filled with mundanes?

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...

Veruin wrote...

A.  So we should let suffering continue because of petty morals?

Who's suffering? Would you be less content if the mass graves were filled with mundanes?

Because the word peace is used, so someone must be suffering.

If the mudanes had a dangerous faction of their own, I'd have no problems with getting rid of them. (See Dragon cults.  Thankfully they're few and far between.)

cjones91 wrote...

If you are willing to kill thousands of people just to prevent suffering then you are creating more suffering to be begin with.Day by day more children with magic are born and even Cullen worries about how the templars might not be able to catch them all,so give it a decade or so and the mage population will increase.

It's like cauterizing a wound.  A lot of hurt now, for little hurt later.  But, that doesn't matter as I don't advocate killing all the mages since I know it to be ineffective.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 février 2014 - 11:18 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Getting back to the Fiona discussion I would say that out of Circle Mages, she has the most life experience. Life as a Warden would not have been easy, giving me the impression that she can make the hard decisions when they come.

Really?

To me she seemed nearly the same immrature, uncouth brat that was brought into existance in the Calling when she popped up decades later for Asunder.

But personal perspective and all that.

Modifié par Master Warder Z , 05 février 2014 - 11:15 .

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Veruin wrote...

A.  So we should let suffering continue because of petty morals?

Who's suffering? Would you be less content if the mass graves were filled with mundanes?

I am assuming the people of Kirkwall suffered when their city became a warzone for the first battle of the War, I am assuming the people of Kirkwall suffered when the Chantry imploded and rained fragments and debris across the area.

I am assuming the people of the Thedas now suffer because of this war and the quicker and more decesively it is ended the more rapidly it will end.

And i am certain by the end of this war there will be plenty of both in the graves.

:/

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...

If the mudanes had a dangerous faction of their own, I'd have no problems with getting rid of them. (See Dragon cults.  Thankfully they're few and far between.)

I'm sure there are a lot of elves who'd call the humans dangerous, and I'm sure there even more humans who would say the same about the elves. Which ones do you kill?

Qunari conversion is a threat to the peace in Thedas, should we kill everyone who buys into their philosophy? On the other hand, would it be all that worse if we killed everyone who rejected it?

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...

I'm sure there are a lot of elves who'd call the humans dangerous, and I'm sure there even more humans who would say the same about the elves. Which ones do you kill?

Qunari conversion is a threat to the peace in Thedas, should we kill everyone who buys into their philosophy? On the other hand, would it be all that worse if we killed everyone who rejected it?

You stop looking at what "X" says and what "Y" feels and look at the situation.  As of now, the only (potentially) dangerous faction is the Dalish and they're far too few in number and organziation to be a significant threat.  Just keep an eye on them, let them wallow in their precious past that will get them nowhere, and you're golden.

If they buy into the philosophy, wouldn't they end up leaving the country they're in and move to Par Vollen?  Why do we need to kill them if they are leaving, willingly at that.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 février 2014 - 11:27 .

[cjones91]

Veruin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

I'm sure there are a lot of elves who'd call the humans dangerous, and I'm sure there even more humans who would say the same about the elves. Which ones do you kill?

Qunari conversion is a threat to the peace in Thedas, should we kill everyone who buys into their philosophy? On the other hand, would it be all that worse if we killed everyone who rejected it?

You stop looking at what "X" says and what "Y" feels and look at the situation.  As of now, the only (potentially) dangerous faction is the Dalish and they're far too few in number and organziation to be a significant threat.  Just keep an eye on them, let them wallow in their precious past that will get them nowhere, and you're golden.

If they buy into the philosophy, wouldn't they end up leaving the country they're in and move to Par Vollen?  Why do we need to kill them if they are leaving, willingly at that.

The Qunari want to convert everybody to the Qun whether it's through force or not.They won't stop until all of Thedas is part of the Qunari doctrine.

[Veruin]

cjones91 wrote...
The Qunari want to convert everybody to the Qun whether it's through force or not.They won't stop until all of Thedas is part of the Qunari doctrine.

Unfortunately, Thedas probably (Yea..probably..) doesn't have the technology to launch an invasion of their own.  Their only choices are to convert, hold out as long as they can, or kick things into gear and actually work on getting to even footing with the Qunari.  So far, Thedas seems to be doing a wait and see type thing and if the Qunari win, I won't have much sympathy.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 février 2014 - 11:42 .

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...

You stop looking at what "X" says and what "Y" feels and look at the situation.  As of now, the only (potentially) dangerous faction is the Dalish and they're far too few in number and organziation to be a significant threat.

Threat to who? Am I supposed to be viewing this from the perspective of a specific group? Why? If I lived in the Kont-Aar, wouldn't the Chantry be potentially dangerous to me?

If they buy into the philosophy, wouldn't they end up leaving the country they're in and move to Par Vollen?  Why do we need to kill them if they are leaving, willingly at that.

Uh, no? Why would they have to?

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...
Threat to who? Am I supposed to be viewing this from the perspective of a specific group? Why? If I lived in the Kont-Aar, wouldn't the Chantry be potentially dangerous to me?

If you're an elf, you're already in a minority.  You do what you can to survive and play ball. You can try and stage a coup, to put your group into the majority, but good luck with that.

The elves don't have anything to negoiate with.  Thedas is not a world where poppies radiate rainbows and it rains glitter, no matter how hard people want to to be.  People keep striving for total equality, while noble, isn't going to happens.

Modifié par Veruin, 05 février 2014 - 11:41 .

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

I'm sure there are a lot of elves who'd call the humans dangerous, and I'm sure there even more humans who would say the same about the elves. Which ones do you kill?

Qunari conversion is a threat to the peace in Thedas, should we kill everyone who buys into their philosophy? On the other hand, would it be all that worse if we killed everyone who rejected it?

You stop looking at what "X" says and what "Y" feels and look at the situation.  As of now, the only (potentially) dangerous faction is the Dalish and they're far too few in number and organziation to be a significant threat.  Just keep an eye on them, let them wallow in their precious past that will get them nowhere, and you're golden.

If they buy into the philosophy, wouldn't they end up leaving the country they're in and move to Par Vollen?  Why do we need to kill them if they are leaving, willingly at that.

There have been a war between Orlais and Ferelden. While I do not call any of the nations responsible it was a war that winning it benefitted both sides. Orlais won but instead of committing genocide (beside the people who died in the war itself) Orlais enslaved and used both the people and resources of Ferelden. Mages of Tevinter did the very same thing Orlais did to Ferelden to Mundanes. After a thousand year mundanes did the same thing to mages, it was less harsher than what mages did to mundanes but I think passage of time and "holiness" of Andraste was the main reason mundanes were much less harsh but they indeed imprisoned if not enslaved mages and used them whenever they needed and enchantment and other services of circle has founded this whole thing, basically costing nothing econimically to imprison mages.

Now again after almost another thousand year same thing has happened. Do we repeat what happened before or do we purpose a new way? Both sides "had their fun". Now its time for a better solution.

[Master Warder Z_]

Veruin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...
Threat to who? Am I supposed to be viewing this from the perspective of a specific group? Why? If I lived in the Kont-Aar, wouldn't the Chantry be potentially dangerous to me?

If you're an elf, you're already in a minority.  You do what you can to survive and play ball. You can try and stage a coup, to put your group into the majority, but good luck with that.

The elves don't have anything to negoiate with.  Thedas is not a world where poppies radiate rainbows and it rains glitter, no matter how hard people want to to be.  People keep striving for total equality, while noble, isn't going to happens.

Shouldn't happen anyway...Not in my book.

Would make the series far less interesting.

[Master Warder Z_]

Rassler wrote...

Veruin wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

I'm sure there are a lot of elves who'd call the humans dangerous, and I'm sure there even more humans who would say the same about the elves. Which ones do you kill?

Qunari conversion is a threat to the peace in Thedas, should we kill everyone who buys into their philosophy? On the other hand, would it be all that worse if we killed everyone who rejected it?

You stop looking at what "X" says and what "Y" feels and look at the situation.  As of now, the only (potentially) dangerous faction is the Dalish and they're far too few in number and organziation to be a significant threat.  Just keep an eye on them, let them wallow in their precious past that will get them nowhere, and you're golden.

If they buy into the philosophy, wouldn't they end up leaving the country they're in and move to Par Vollen?  Why do we need to kill them if they are leaving, willingly at that.

There have been a war between Orlais and Ferelden. While I do not call any of the nations responsible it was a war that winning it benefitted both sides. Orlais won but instead of committing genocide (beside the people who died in the war itself) Orlais enslaved and used both the people and resources of Ferelden. Mages of Tevinter did the very same thing Orlais did to Ferelden to Mundanes. After a thousand year mundanes did the same thing to mages, it was less harsher than what mages did to mundanes but I think passage of time and "holiness" of Andraste was the main reason mundanes were much less harsh but they indeed imprisoned if not enslaved mages and used them whenever they needed and enchantment and other services of circle has founded this whole thing, basically costing nothing econimically to imprison mages.

Now again after almost another thousand year same thing has happened. Do we repeat what happened before or do we purpose a new way? Both sides "had their fun". Now its time for a better solution.

Or the Mages can merely learn their place...At the foot of Humanity.

Not at its side.

I have no issue with the Circle System being reinstated but all these talk of Mages leaving outside the bounds of the Chantry, the Templars living among the common people? Its pure folly and will only lead to further strengthening the Mage position within society when it needs to be stamped out completely.

They are useful for war and services but the amount of baggage that comes with them occasionally makes me think of using the examples of my less then...subtle compatriots upon the forum.

You know such as mass killings, mass usage of tranqulity, and generally just negating the threat from the equation entirely rather then dealing with it as i would prefer to.

[Veruin]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Or the Mages can merely learn their place...At the foot of Humanity.

I wouldn't say at the foot of humanity...but I can tell you full mage-normal integration will never happen.  The best mages can hope for is MisterJB's idea of their own village.  (Something like that.  I can't remember the details)

[Saints]

Has anyone stated that they are a fan of Fiona yet?