1033 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Banxey2 wrote...
Oh, I don't disagree. Even if you were to factor in serial killers, apprehending them when identified would be less of an issue. But in either case does locking up people completely prevent either scenario from occurring? And I know you would answer that by saying it will reduce the likelihood of it happening. And I would also agree.

But the meat of the argument I was having with the other poster was, is it necessary to have all mages locked up and under constant scrutiny by Templars, regardless of who they are because they could "have a bad day?" I don't believe so, I think it makes things worse. And the risk of anything bad happening when a mage like Wynne leaves the circle, is less than the risk of having a system where it's known that a child (like Connor) is removed and isolated from his family for the rest of his life. 

They are not completely removed. Even in Kirkwall, Bethany's family was allowed to visit her in the Circle.

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...

The elves don't have anything to negoiate with.  Thedas is not a world where poppies radiate rainbows and it rains glitter, no matter how hard people want to to be.  People keep striving for total equality, while noble, isn't going to happens.

Exactly, so why should someone be invested in the welfare of a plurality? Even in JB's example, it basically amounts to "Mages can be hired to do this for a client, but they can't be allowed to do x, y, and z", or InExile claiming that mages have a monopoly over healing and enchanting, and thus shouldn't be allowed to offer these services.

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't they just be "playing ball"? If there's no universal moral truth, then why should mages having a large amount of control over an economy be such a concern it that needs to be addressed?

[Lulupab]

Master Warder Z wrote...


Or the Mages can merely learn their place...At the foot of Humanity.

Not at its side.

I have no issue with the Circle System being reinstated but all these talk of Mages leaving outside the bounds of the Chantry, the Templars living among the common people? Its pure folly and will only lead to further strengthening the Mage position within society when it needs to be stamped out completely.

They are useful for war and services but the amount of baggage that comes with them occasionally makes me think of using the examples of my less then...subtle compatriots upon the forum.

You know such as mass killings, mass usage of tranqulity, and generally just negating the threat from the equation entirely rather then dealing with it as i would prefer to.

I wouldn't underestimate mages as much as you'd think. Sure they have certain disadvantages but don't forget that over 15 circles successfuly break out of Templar control only Dairsmuid circle was annulled, mages break free of every other circle which probably means killed the Templars. If anything mages have 40% chance, at the very least. 

Considering extreme actions are semi-confirmed I'd suspect there might be both endings to mass genocide mages or mages starting another Tevinter.

[SgtSteel91]

MisterJB wrote...

They are not completely removed. Even in Kirkwall, Bethany's family was allowed to visit her in the Circle.

Allowed to visit in person or allowed Bethany to write home to her family?

[MisterJB]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

They are not completely removed. Even in Kirkwall, Bethany's family was allowed to visit her in the Circle.

Allowed to visit in person or allowed Bethany to write home to her family?

Leandra visits in person and so does Gamlen after her death.
It would probably be harder In Ferelden where the tower is isolated and means of locomotion are scarce. Safer tough.

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...
Exactly, so why should someone be invested in the welfare of a plurality? Even in JB's example, it basically amounts to "Mages can be hired to do this for a client, but they can't be allowed to do x, y, and z", or InExile claiming that mages have a monopoly over healing and enchanting, and thus shouldn't be allowed to offer these services.

Why shouldn't they? Wouldn't they just be "playing ball"? If there's no universal moral truth, then why should mages having a large amount of control over an economy be such a concern it that needs to be addressed?

Then you are giving them unwanted influence.  If they get involved into the economy, they have more negiotating power. (If you don't give us X, we'll make you pay by doing Y")  

Modifié par Veruin, 06 février 2014 - 12:33 .

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...
Then you are giving them unwanted influence.  If they get involved into the economy, they have more negiotating power. (If you don't give us X, we'll make you pay by doing Y")  

I thought the point was to "play ball" and "do what you can to survive"? If the mages had indeed solidified themselves in such a position that the nobles couldn't afford to ignore them, wouldn't they be doing just that?

[Veruin]

The Baconer wrote...

I thought the point was to "play ball" and "do what you can to survive"? If the mages had indeed solidified themselves in such a position that the nobles couldn't afford to ignore them, wouldn't they be doing just that?

Of course.  But then we start drifting to them becoming the majority.  Why would you want to risk your status?  It's a constant back and forth between everyone.  They come into power and you're at their mercy.  That's a foolish thing to just willingly allow.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, she managed to outmaneuver the Templar Order entirely in this regard.

She managed to backstab an ally who would never have expected her to be a traitor. "Outmaneuvering" or rather in this case backstabbing a man who trusts you, and has his back turned against you, is not a very challenging thing to do.

Backstab? In what way was she required to inform Lambert about Pharamond's experiments? She is his boss. She didn't have to tell him jack sh*t.

I was more referring to Justinia ordering her agents to kill Templars and prevent the Templars from doing their duties.

[The Baconer]

Veruin wrote...

Of course.  But then we start drifting to them becoming the majority.

I don't think the governing classes of Thedas have ever made up the majority of their populations.

Why would you want to risk your status?  It's a constant back and forth between everyone.  They come into power and you're at their mercy.  That's a foolish thing to just willingly allow.

But does it ever really play out like that? I don't think the people in the reformed Tevinter senate just stood up one day and said "You know, I really miss being enslaved. And the blood magic, too". I'd imagine that the scenario, even with the regulations that JB proposed, would play out more like "Well my lord, we would love to perform x, y, and z for you, but King NoFun said we can't, and he makes all the rules. I wonder what it would be like if you made all the rules..."

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

And yet, she managed to outmaneuver the Templar Order entirely in this regard.

She managed to backstab an ally who would never have expected her to be a traitor. "Outmaneuvering" or rather in this case backstabbing a man who trusts you, and has his back turned against you, is not a very challenging thing to do.

Backstab? In what way was she required to inform Lambert about Pharamond's experiments? She is his boss. She didn't have to tell him jack sh*t.

I was more referring to Justinia ordering her agents to kill Templars and prevent the Templars from doing their duties.

Ah, my bad.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I think we'll have to disagree simply because mages aren't a unified people with set goals.

They don't need to be a unified people. Were the burgeouise a "unified people with set goals" when during the 1700s in Europe (particularly in France)? What's necessary is that they are a powerful group of people with the means and capacity to upset the current social order. That's threatening for the people who benefit a great deal from the current social order.

Add in the economic aspects. I don't think mages will be able to control the economy. First, mages don't have the training to forge swords, make clothes...well, they may sew their own robes so they might there, and enchanting services are also really expensive.

You're thinking about this wrong. If fiefdom A has mages on its side, and fiefdom B doesn't, then fiefdom A has a credible and significant power advantage over fiefdom B, unless the mages hold out. 

It all depends on the noble, the nature of the agreement and so on. Some mages would work the system, just like some nobles would. Many nobles who had such mages in their arling or whatever, would also probably try to use said mages to advance themselves in their own country.  

Of course they would. But that's what makes mages threatening to them. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just saying that this is the kind of thing that itself can tear a country apart. 

All I'm saying is that this will lead to very, very major differences of opinion. And the same conflict lines would set themselves up inside a country, and it isn't as easy as mages getting behind nobles to hide from the templars. 

Modifié par In Exile, 06 février 2014 - 01:45 .

[In Exile]

The Baconer wrote...
And what, exactly, makes this a threat? Bear in mind that while healing magic is definitely an irreplacable service, this notion that enchanting is a monopoly held by mages is completely artificial. Being a mage doesn't give you some intrinsic and exclusive right to employ those actually capable of fashioning enchanted items (dwarves and Tranquil), nor does it mean you automatically have some control over the trade of Lyrium.

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

[The Baconer]

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

Which is also really possible. Heck, many nobles may simply try to get as many mages on their side or in their courts (discreetly of course) so they have more power than their rivals.

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

Which is also really possible. Heck, many nobles may simply try to get as many mages on their side or in their courts (discreetly of course) so they have more power than their rivals.

Not really considering how near universial the censure would be if it was discovered.

its presentable risks far outweigh possible gains.

Any wise ruler thinks in terms of presented imediate gain verses future risk or imediate risk or both or future gain.

._. Crud i could see maybe it happening in Ravain...Maybe, Assuming the locals don't get pissy about foreigners taking away native work.

And thats perhaps the largest obstacle standing in the mages way if they attempt to settle in foreign lands, Those Lands are already have mages for the most part and thus they have tasks and duties assigned to mages.

So you have that ever so lovely Theodosian Regional Distrust and Superiority complex kick in.

[dragonflight288]

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

Which is also really possible. Heck, many nobles may simply try to get as many mages on their side or in their courts (discreetly of course) so they have more power than their rivals.

Not really considering how near universial the censure would be if it was discovered.

its presentable risks far outweigh possible gains.

Any wise ruler thinks in terms of presented imediate gain verses future risk or imediate risk or both or future gain.

._. Crud i could see maybe it happening in Ravain...Maybe, Assuming the locals don't get pissy about foreigners taking away native work.

And thats perhaps the largest obstacle standing in the mages way if they attempt to settle in foreign lands, Those Lands are already have mages for the most part and thus they have tasks and duties assigned to mages.

So you have that ever so lovely Theodosian Regional Distrust and Superiority complex kick in.

The real risks are demons possessing mages. With that huge tear in the sky and demons raining down into the world, I think that risk has been substaintially reduced, and mundanes are in equal risk as mages are now, at least if they run into a demon in the real world. 

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

I still don't buy it. Outside of times of famine, why waste such talent on mere food when you could have a cash crop? If these magics are so rare and limited, why would anyone have to worry about mages controlling the food supply?

[Master Warder Z_]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, but healing is. And just health - especially for a war machine, but even for agricultural farming - is a significant advantage. Just the fact that mages can make it rain and light fires can change the economy of a country entirely. 

I highly doubt it's that simple. The land of the magisters was, afterall, was laid low by famine in the days of Andraste. And with such an ability to generate fast and robust wealth I refuse to believe that such a potential resource would go unexploited for so long by the nobility.

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

Which is also really possible. Heck, many nobles may simply try to get as many mages on their side or in their courts (discreetly of course) so they have more power than their rivals.

Not really considering how near universial the censure would be if it was discovered.

its presentable risks far outweigh possible gains.

Any wise ruler thinks in terms of presented imediate gain verses future risk or imediate risk or both or future gain.

._. Crud i could see maybe it happening in Ravain...Maybe, Assuming the locals don't get pissy about foreigners taking away native work.

And thats perhaps the largest obstacle standing in the mages way if they attempt to settle in foreign lands, Those Lands are already have mages for the most part and thus they have tasks and duties assigned to mages.

So you have that ever so lovely Theodosian Regional Distrust and Superiority complex kick in.

The real risks are demons possessing mages. With that huge tear in the sky and demons raining down into the world, I think that risk has been substaintially reduced, and mundanes are in equal risk as mages are now, at least if they run into a demon in the real world. 

Ahem no.

The real risk is getting caught harboring mages when Anti Mage/Anti Magic trade partners find out about and either increase trade taxes and trafifs or caught it off all together.

Sure possession is an issue but it isn't a large one considering if it became an issue you have a Horde of Templars running about Thedas these days kicking mages teeth in for fun.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Agricultural Magic is apparently rare even within the school of creation which is self a rarity, Battle Mages appear to be far more common then healers within DA.

So it could merely be a matter of the nobility using such rare talent to feed themselves and their vassals over the common peoples.

I still don't buy it. Outside of times of famine, why waste such talent on mere food when you could have a cash crop? If these magics are so rare and limited, why would anyone have to worry about mages controlling the food supply?

You wouldn't and inside and outside of Tveinter you would likely have these mages used to encourage populous growth of staples and what have you.

But their effectiveness has been debated a little bit and there has never been any case of them "magicking" crops into existance, they supposedly encourage growth but that could near anything, it could be a sham for all we know.

[dragonflight288]

Ahem no.

The real risk is getting caught harboring mages when Anti Mage/Anti Magic trade partners find out about and either increase trade taxes and trafifs or caught it off all together.

Sure possession is an issue but it isn't a large one considering if it became an issue you have a Horde of Templars running about Thedas these days kicking mages teeth in for fun.

Maybe, maybe not. That depends on your neighbors, how much the populace like the templars and if the mages in question are popular or not and that mages skills. Say we have Ines the Botanist make a reappearance. She was researching the Northern Prickleweed plant, which can grow even in blighted soil. If she made a breakthrough on agriculture despite the blight then I would say she would be in pretty high demand among the nobles, and whoever gets her, at least in Ferelden, will have a huge advantage over other banns and arls because she could help them rebuild their foodstores, which they could sell to others in Ferelden and improve the local economy, or bolster that freeholders's influence in the area.

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

You wouldn't and inside and outside of Tveinter you would likely have these mages used to encourage populous growth of staples and what have you.

In Tevinter? Oh no, no... You can bet they'd be growing Felicidus Aria.

[thetinyevil]

Veruin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
No,Rassler is right. If you read JB's comments on mages before you'll know he is really anti mage.

TKS is anti-mage.  MisterJB is not.

Yes he is and if I read you posts correctly so are you.

Modifié par thetinyevil, 06 février 2014 - 03:14 .

[thetinyevil]

eluvianix wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

No thanks, I am not anti-mage.

Your posts suggest otherwise.

They only say otherwise because they don't line up with your standards.

No,Rassler is right. If you read JB's comments on mages before you'll know he is really anti mage.

He's not anti-mage. He's just a rather conservative pro-Circle. You want anti-mage, Lotion Soronnar is a little bit more of what you are looking for.

IMO if someone is pro-circle then they are by defualt anit-mage. After all circles are prisons where victims are punshed and abusers are rewarded.